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Massachusetts LTB? ("License to "Bulge")

happened to me once, pleasant conversation with a statie who asked if the bulge under my polo was a firearm. I said yes, he asked for my LTC, I produced it. Glanced and asked what I was carrying. I said a 686. He looked at me as if I had 3 heads and asked where I found an IWB for it.

NO need to pull the 2A card all the time.
 
GPP said:
Which he apparently isnt gonna answer, so Ive drawn my conclusion from that.
Click to expand...
40s and 50s, the "kid" who was stopped and questioned is 44 or 45... but I'm still trying to figure out why you think age matters? If it were younger folks, they'd be under more suspicions? Or they're not privy and/or eligible to the protections of the law? Not to sound like "you know who" but... "What difference does it make"? (the age of the person who is being - in my opinion - unlawfully detained and questioned)
 
Asaltweapon said:
Going a little extreme. No?

It sounded like a simple question that had a simple answer and response. No need to lawyer up just then. There's plenty of time for that to happen when the LEO blind sides you with any number of bullshit charges just to eff you up and cost you a ton of money with BS legal fees defending something stupid that will get dropped after you are stuck refi'ing your house.
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I honestly don't feel it's "going to the extreme" to feel somewhat - even slightly - pissed about seeing someone, anyone, walking through a restaurant, bothering absolutely nobody, acting 100% lawfully and peaceful, and happening to pass by two off-duty (if you're at a table eating with the "regular folks", you're off duty. Alert, aware sure but... you're off duty).

I should also add, and should've added to the OP, that as these two cops were stopping and questioning our friend, in the booth two rows over were a couple of Chelsea dudes who looked and sounded like they'd just bought and sold a kilo of coke and/or robbed a liquor store, but conveniently Officers DoGood and DoWell pick and choose a white guy in his 40s to interrogate as he's on his way to take a piss.... I'm guessing it's all just "coincidental".
Uh-huh.
 
GlockJock said:
I honestly don't feel it's "going to the extreme" to feel somewhat - even slightly - pissed about seeing someone, anyone, walking through a restaurant, bothering absolutely nobody, acting 100% lawfully and peaceful, and happening to pass by two off-duty (if you're at a table eating with the "regular folks", you're off duty. Alert, aware sure but... you're off duty).

I should also add, and should've added to the OP, that as these two cops were stopping and questioning our friend, in the booth two rows over were a couple of Chelsea dudes who looked and sounded like they'd just bought and sold a kilo of coke and/or robbed a liquor store, but conveniently Officers DoGood and DoWell pick and choose a white guy in his 40s to interrogate as he's on his way to take a piss.... I'm guessing it's all just "coincidental".
Uh-huh.
Click to expand...

So you are willing to go thru a potential $$$hitload of expenses to keep or risk the of loss of your LTC just to prove a point over something so silly?
Did you ever stop long enough to think that if your tight wearing jeans buddy did a better job of concealing his pocket pistol he wouldn't have been bothered in the first place?

I've been around long enough and learned to pick a fight I have a better chance of winning versus jeopardizing my LTC.
I guess I value my license and collection more than some others. Clearly, many others who have posted here feel the same way as I.

That said... I'm out.
 
GlockJock said:
I honestly don't feel it's "going to the extreme" to feel somewhat - even slightly - pissed about seeing someone, anyone, walking through a restaurant, bothering absolutely nobody, acting 100% lawfully and peaceful, and happening to pass by two off-duty (if you're at a table eating with the "regular folks", you're off duty. Alert, aware sure but... you're off duty).

I should also add, and should've added to the OP, that as these two cops were stopping and questioning our friend, in the booth two rows over were a couple of Chelsea dudes who looked and sounded like they'd just bought and sold a kilo of coke and/or robbed a liquor store, but conveniently Officers DoGood and DoWell pick and choose a white guy in his 40s to interrogate as he's on his way to take a piss.... I'm guessing it's all just "coincidental".
Uh-huh.
Click to expand...

I understand that emotion. We shouldn't have to submit to the whole "ihre papiere bitte" BS. So what course of action should one take in a state with discretionary licensing?

If you piss off a cop over this here in MA, it has a chance to go south in a big way. You might "win" in the long run, but you could still be out a ton of money. I applaud those who are willing to stand up in that way (assuming they have thought through the consequences and have the means to pursue the legal action). Personally, I think my life is too short to deal with that crap, and I would show my LTC and then figure out how to better conceal my gun. YMMV.
 
Asaltweapon said:
So you are willing to go thru a potential $$$hitload of expenses to keep or risk the of loss of your LTC just to prove a point over something so silly?
Did you ever stop long enough to think that if your tight wearing jeans buddy did a better job of concealing his pocket pistol he wouldn't have been bothered in the first place?

I've been around long enough and learned to pick a fight I have a better chance of winning versus jeopardizing my LTC.
I guess I value my license and collection more than some others. Clearly, many others who have posted here feel the same way as I.

That said... I'm out.
Click to expand...

"That said, I'm out "...
Did you ever stop long enough to think we're in a state where this shit should not be accepted as "OK, whatever, don't fuss. Just do what Officer Friendly tells you to do..."
Meanwhile, randomly stop and frisk a brotha walking thru the same restaurant who "ain't do nuttin wrong, my man, and why you harassing me?" and that cop will be on video, on every news channel, subject to an internal affairs investigation, ordered to attend sensitivity training, asked to speak to Reverend Smith from the First Baptist Church of the Holy Blessed Almighty Redeemer to discuss how you can "better interact with the disadvantaged yutes and..." etc etc etc etc etc etc

"That's it. I'm out".
 
M1911 said:
I understand that emotion. We shouldn't have to submit to the whole "ihre papiere bitte" BS. So what course of action should one take in a state with discretionary licensing?

If you piss off a cop over this here in MA, it has a chance to go south in a big way. You might "win" in the long run, but you could still be out a ton of money. I applaud those who are willing to stand up in that way (assuming they have thought through the consequences and have the means to pursue the legal action). Personally, I think my life is too short to deal with that crap, and I would show my LTC and then figure out how to better conceal my gun. YMMV.
Click to expand...


Overall I agree with you.

This IS changing slightly. There are so many cameras everywhere that the "ego trips" are toning back a bit. I think you can be polite and very respectful while complying to a certain level to "requests".
 
GlockJock said:
I honestly don't feel it's "going to the extreme" to feel somewhat - even slightly - pissed about seeing someone, anyone, walking through a restaurant, bothering absolutely nobody, acting 100% lawfully and peaceful, and happening to pass by two off-duty (if you're at a table eating with the "regular folks", you're off duty. Alert, aware sure but... you're off duty).
Click to expand...

Such things annoy me but IMHO its a reality of carrying a gun legally in MA. LTC holders that actually carry are still pretty much unicorns. The average LEO treats them as such, and their mind can't grasp the concept well. Getting angry about it is probably not going to produce a "teachable moment" for the LEO. The problem is there is no simplistic legal guideline we can simply cite to the officer that is going to make a light go on in their head that says "maybe I shouldn't be accosting this guy over nothing". You have to question the motives of someone who is pinging some guy otherwise minding his own business.

There may be a "firing solution" for this problem that helps things but I can't think of a simple one offhand.

-Mike

- - - Updated - - -

M1911 said:
I understand that emotion. We shouldn't have to submit to the whole "ihre papiere bitte" BS. So what course of action should one take in a state with discretionary licensing?

If you piss off a cop over this here in MA, it has a chance to go south in a big way. You might "win" in the long run, but you could still be out a ton of money. I applaud those who are willing to stand up in that way (assuming they have thought through the consequences and have the means to pursue the legal action). Personally, I think my life is too short to deal with that crap, and I would show my LTC and then figure out how to better conceal my gun. YMMV.
Click to expand...

The only simplistic win I can think of is if I have LE connections I might exercise them with discretion to perhaps, get officer cantmindhisownbusiness a talking to by a pro 2A superior officer. Good luck with that though, even that is difficult.

-Mike
 
GlockJock said:
"That said, I'm out "...
Did you ever stop long enough to think we're in a state where this shit should not be accepted as "OK, whatever, don't fuss. Just do what Officer Friendly tells you to do..."
Click to expand...

The reality is it doesn't matter whether you accept it or not, they're going to keep doing it regardless unless there is a paradigm shift in best practices at the root level of LE. And even if there is one that most agencies welcome, there are still going to be holdouts that keep acting like dbags.

This problem will only change if an edict comes down from somewhere, some kind of official guideline that has to be obeyed. Lacking that, hurr durring isn't going to do much.

-Mike
 
I may be in the minority, but I don't see a big civil liberty implication in showing a license when engaged in a licensed activity. Does the state need to suspect someone of practicing medicine without a license to see their license? What about renovating a house? Does the state need probably cause to believe unlawful contracting before they ask to see the license display at the job site?

As long as it's not a fishing expedition; the license is accepted as facially valid (as was NOT done in the case with the Springfield attorney); the encounter is terminated once the presence of an LTC is established; and there are no follow-up ramifications (like the LTC revocation in the old Dedham case), it's not a big deal.
LTC holders that actually carry are still pretty much unicorns.
Click to expand...
This perception among moonbats is a good thing. They would be shocked if the knew how many people actually did carry.
 
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Rob Boudrie said:
I may be in the minority, but I don't see a big civil liberty implication in showing a license when engaged in a licensed activity. Does the state need to suspect someone of practicing medicine without a license to see their license? What about renovating a house? Does the state need probably cause to believe unlawful contracting before they ask to see the license display at the job site?

As long as it's not a fishing expedition; the license is accepted as facially valid (as was NOT done in the case with the Springfield attorney); the encounter is terminated once the presence of an LTC is established; and there are no follow-up ramifications (like the LTC revocation in the old Dedham case), it's not a big deal.

This perception among moonbats is a good thing. They would be shocked if the knew how many people actually did carry.
Click to expand...


Then we get back needing a license to exercise a constitutional right id a civil liberties violation in and of itself...so the whole foundation of the licensing issue is a violation of 2A.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
I may be in the minority, but I don't see a big civil liberty implication in showing a license when engaged in a licensed activity. Does the state need to suspect someone of practicing medicine without a license to see their license? What about renovating a house? Does the state need probably cause to believe unlawful contracting before they ask to see the license display at the job site?

As long as it's not a fishing expedition; the license is accepted as facially valid (as was NOT done in the case with the Springfield attorney); the encounter is terminated once the presence of an LTC is established; and there are no follow-up ramifications (like the LTC revocation in the old Dedham case), it's not a big deal.

This perception among moonbats is a good thing. They would be shocked if the knew how many people actually did carry.
Click to expand...

So you believe you can be stopped while driving merely to check your license? So LEO can stop anyone at any time just to do a license check?
 
Whole thing boils down to-

- cop asserting dominance over op's friend

- cop showing off for other cop.
 
If cop demands it, we would call him a JBT for using his position of authority over a citizen doing nothing wrong. If he asks politely, it's "mind your business, pig."
 
Mike-Mike said:
So you believe you can be stopped while driving merely to check your license? So LEO can stop anyone at any time just to do a license check?
Click to expand...

Borderline. What about a copy stopping your for speeding demanding registration? He has no reason to suspect you are driving an uninsured or unregistered vehicle, so what gives him the authority beyond checking your license status?

Do you think a contractor has the obligation to display a visible permit to prove he is not violating the law?
 
GlockJock said:
I honestly don't feel it's "going to the extreme" to feel somewhat - even slightly - pissed about seeing someone, anyone, walking through a restaurant, bothering absolutely nobody, acting 100% lawfully and peaceful, and happening to pass by two off-duty (if you're at a table eating with the "regular folks", you're off duty. Alert, aware sure but... you're off duty).

I should also add, and should've added to the OP, that as these two cops were stopping and questioning our friend, in the booth two rows over were a couple of Chelsea dudes who looked and sounded like they'd just bought and sold a kilo of coke and/or robbed a liquor store, but conveniently Officers DoGood and DoWell pick and choose a white guy in his 40s to interrogate as he's on his way to take a piss.... I'm guessing it's all just "coincidental".
Uh-huh.
Click to expand...

Good thing you're not upset about the officer making assumptions about you and your friends!
 
robjax said:
I disagree that we need licenses to do anything. Carrying a firearm is legal. Open carrying a firearm is legal. No probable cause to even look in my direction. If I were to use the firearm in self defense or a crime then ask me. Otherwise you are violating my rights.

I live in Mass so the pols saw fit to it that if I carry then I am agreeing to have my rights violated if a cop sense I have or sees I have a firearm. Nothing can be done about that without some pro 2A votes.

As for fishing or hunting then yes, if you are actively engaged. But carrying a fishing pole near the water doesn't mean you are fishing and carrying a rifle in the woods doesn't mean you are hunting. Is there an incredible chance you are planning to engage in either instance? Absolutely. But until you have a line in the water you are not fishing. And if you are walking along through the woods with a rifle slung on your shoulder you are not necessarily hunting.

So no, they should't have a right to ask for a license in those cases until they see you actively engage in the event.

We have come to accept too many violations of our rights as "normal".
Click to expand...


I agree, we should not need licenses to fish, hunt or carry a firearm but the law says we have to (for now). I don't think it's worth making a stink over being asked to show the license or permit. That said, I think we have to continue to fight the pistol permit process in general and fight for constitutional carry. I'm not saying to give up rights or stop fighting for the ones that have been taken. I'm just saying that while we need to draw a line in the sand we also need to pick our battles and for me, being asked to show a permit is not that big of a deal. If a cop wanted to detain me, interrogate me or frisk me or something like that just because I am carrying that is clearly a huge problem and that would be crossing the line by a wide margin.

At least fishing/hunting/trapping license fees go towards stocking and conservation programs so that has a direct benefit to the people paying for the licenses, in theory. I get your analogy of carrying a fishing pole or a gun but not being engaged in fishing or hunting. It's not quite the same though because the fishing license is not to carry a fishing pole, it is for fishing so yes, you have to be fishing for the license requirement to apply. With a carry permit you are permitted to carry a gun so just the act of carrying requires the permit.
 
It's not quite the same though because the fishing license is not to carry a fishing pole, it is for fishing so yes, you have to be fishing for the license requirement to apply.
Click to expand...
Try applying that logic if you are afield with a shotgun during hunting season without a license and claim you are not hunting.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
Try applying that logic if you are afield with a shotgun during hunting season without a license and claim you are not hunting.
Click to expand...

No, I agree I would not try that. My point is just that a pistol permit is to carry a pistol so the mere act of carrying the pistol is the licensed action. A hunting/fishing license is not a license to just carry a fishing pole or long gun around, it is a license to engage in the act of hunting/fishing. That is why it doesn't apply to someone simply carrying a fishing pole or long gun out of Walmart or gun shop but the pistol permit does apply to simply carrying the pistol anywhere at all.
 
It's kind of like that old movie (I think it was a Harrison Ford flick) where the guy says everything in Massachusetts is illegal. This state sucks but at least after juggling balls of fire, spinning pie plates and jumping through the flaming hoops of Hell, once you get your LTC you have less restrictions than in some other states. I live on the MA side of the MA/NH border and have often thought about crossing over into free territory. The thing is, it's easier and less expensive for me to get a NH/ME non-resident LTC with my MA LTC than it is the other way around. All of my business and family is in MA and I would have to go for my MA non-resident LTC in Chelsea every year if I chose to carry in MA.
 
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Rob Boudrie said:
Borderline. What about a copy stopping your for speeding demanding registration? He has no reason to suspect you are driving an uninsured or unregistered vehicle, so what gives him the authority beyond checking your license status? But he stopped you for a reason. He can't drive around stopping people to check registrations.

Do you think a contractor has the obligation to display a visible permit to prove he is not violating the law? Sure, engaging in business is very different than walking in public at a citizen. For someone to stop you, there has to be a reason and case law as said time and time again that the presence of a firearm is not enough.
Click to expand...

.
 
Wow, I'm surprised how many people actually felt ok with your friend complying. I was expecting a 90% barrage of less than pleasant comments.

With that said, I would have done the same thing. I would be pissed about it and discussed it with the "nice guy" officer afterward but I would not have gone all second amendment preaching on him right away. Ya I know, I'm a p*ssy, I don't "get it", blah blah. Some of the assclown cops out there can really mess up your day if they want to so its not worth the hassle to me. I've seen it happen too many times.

Just show it to him and express your frustration after. Hell, get his badge number and so on if you feel it was uncalled for or illegal or if you want a make a point, I dunno. Alot of the hassling comes from misinformation or bad training so a convo with the cop on why you're pissed plus a mini 2A speech may dawn a light on him to not randomly harass people in the future. Flat out ignoring him may just turn into a huge inconvenience many of us can't afford with work, school, etc.
 

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