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Massachusetts LTB? ("License to "Bulge")

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It was Floramo's, Bro... Never disappointing! [emoji3]

Tommmy Florrammmos! Where the meat, falls off, the bone!

TF01-inside2-menu.jpg
 
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GPP

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Correct! I am not advising anyone to play hardball with anyone. However we both know the defense could get the entire situation thrown out if tight pants played his cards right and he has nothing to gain by playing along with the games.

It's good to at least understand it's a fishing expedition and nothing more.

Even if the cop saw the gun he wouldn't have the PC to demand the license.


Even if the cop saw the gun he wouldnt have the PC to demand the license?
 

PATRON

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He could have done one of two things give the cop the LTC make nice,nice like he did,and all is well.The second thing he could have done was said FU do a tuck&roll flick the finger,and head back to his seat.That would have ended up with getting the shit kicked out of him some one sent to shoot his dog,and the night in the Chelsea jail playing hide the taco with Jose & Pedro.
 

Mike-Mike

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Even if the cop saw the gun he wouldnt have the PC to demand the license?

Under suspicion of what crime? Can you stop an operator of a motor vehicle under suspicion they are driving without a license? Why not just just stop everyone under suspicion they might be doing something illegal?
 
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dcmdon

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In MA, if a cop asks you for your LTC, you are required by law to produce it.

As far as I can tell, Not really. The cop can't legally detain you to look at a LTC unless he has reasonable articulable suspicion that you have committed a crime. This is a 4A thing. MA law has nothing to do with it.

On a practical level, if you piss off the cop, you may have retained your 4A rights, but then the pissed off cop tells the chief and they pull your LTC. Which opens up a entire other can of worms.

In other words, considering where this occurred, the OP's friend played it right.

This has come up in CT recently because there was never a law until last year that said you had to produce a pistol permit to a cop, ever. So they passed a law properly written that says that if a cop suspects you of a crime you must present your pistol permit.

It was quickly understood by most CT carriers that if the cop answered "No" to the standard "do you suspect me of a crime", then you could walk away. That pissed off a lot of cops. Its even more annoying to the cops when a person is open carrying in a crime infested city and refuses to show his PP. And god forbid he is BLACK. The cops get apoplectic. (See video below) So this year they tried to pass a law saying that you have to present the PP if asked, even if no crime is suspected.

Its widely considered to be unconsitutional if it passes.

Don

[video=youtube_share;jlyHx9DfuRg]http://youtu.be/jlyHx9DfuRg[/video]
 

clancy dogg

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Commonwealth v. Haskell, 438 Mass. 790 (2003): Interrogation occurred where the defendant, stopped pursuant to Terry, was asked whether he had a license for the firearm found by the police. Order to produce license would have been permissible.
 

drgrant

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Everyone has their line in the sand.
If he had chosen to not answer the cop, the cop could very easily articulate escalating from the hunch/threshold inquiry/ to PC to detain and pat frisk etc etc etc.
When I instruct, I spell this shit out to people. Some probably think its bowing down and blowing the cop as he tramples their Constitutional rights, and some probably think who gives a rats ass, and do exactly what the OPs skinny jeaned buddy did.

I smoked cigars with an older dude from BPD that was actually pretty serious about obeying the guidelines on the whole "whether or not you can ask vs demand someone's LTC or even infer anything from whether someone was carrying a gun." he basically said there was a bunch of things he could do and things he could not do. Of course he is a reasonable guy and is not the type of guy who would make someone eat pavement merely for carrying a holstered firearm.

-Mike
 
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Try again... What info did the office have that the firearm was unlawfully possessed?

The officer is entitled to conduct an investigation to determine if the firearm is lawfully possesses or not. 269/10 has been frequently litigated and case law makes it very clear that even though the imprint of a firearm is not indicative of a crime, it is at least a matter of serious public-safety concern and the officer is justified in initiating an investigation. If the defendant is belligerent or hostile the officer could determine the person is a threat to public safety and conduct a protective weapons frisk. The law is clear that an officer may take prudent actions for his own safety and that of others.

I am not going to bother with cites because you are going to argue no matter what case law says. When it comes down to it you will provide a copy of your license when asked just like the rest of us. Or end up arrested and probably labeled unsuitable after spending $40K in legal fees to get the evidence suppressed.

Talk is cheap.
 
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drgrant

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So, play that out. The cop asks the question and I ignore the question and keep walking. Now the cop thinks I'm hiding something or trying to get away, gets pissed, and stops me, either by force or command. And then he demands the license. Or worse.

How is that a better outcome for me?

Explain to me what you think the right way to handle this is and how you think it would play, particularly after you piss off the cop and he sends a note to your licensing officer.

The other thing I always tell people is, even if you think you've won, you haven't won shit.

Even if you get proven right in the end, it still costs you something. Time. Showing the LTC means you're only costing yourself like 30 seconds; not showing it could cost you hours, or days missed from work going to court etc. Or lots of money if you need to get a lawyer, etc. It's not like a USC 1983 suit for a civil rights violation based on a LEO ignoring the 4th amendment is easily going to go anywhere, anyways....

-Mike
 

GPP

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Under suspicion of what crime? Can you stop an operator of a motor vehicle under suspicion they are driving without a license? Why not just just stop everyone under suspicion they might be doing something illegal?

There doesnt have to be a crime or suspicion of one. Take a look at 140/129c. Read it all the way to the bottom.

Can I stop a motor vehicle if I believe the operator to be unlicensed? Of course. Do I need to articulate the reason as to why Im suspicious that the operator is unlicensed? Of course.

Whether or not I agree with the statutes is irrelevant; the statutes exist. When I instruct, I explain the statutes. I dont offer up my opinion as to how I feel about the statutes, or as to my opinion on how the people Im instructing should act if confronted by LE.
A civil or criminal infraction while operating a motor vehicle isnt in the same ballpark in regards to a firearm being seen by LE or JQ Public in MA. Im fairly certain we would both agree on how things should be in MA, or as to how we would want them to be in MA (in regards to firearms anyways), but we both know thats not gonna happen.
 
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There doesnt have to be a crime or suspicion of one. Take a look at 140/129c. Read it all the way to the bottom.

Are you not aware of, or conveniently ignoring, the plethora of case law which generally holds that not only is the mere presence of a firearm not PC, but doesn't even rise to the level of RAS?

See, e.g., Commonwealth v. Alvarado, 423 Mass. 266 , 269 (1996) ( "Carrying a gun is not a crime. Carrying a firearm without a license [or other authorization] is"); Commonwealth v. Couture, 407 Mass. 178 , 180, cert. denied, 498 U.S. 951 (1990); Commonwealth v. Toole, 389 Mass. 159 , 163-164 (1983). In those cases, we concluded that the mere presence of a firearm without more did not furnish probable cause or reasonable suspicion sufficient to justify the seizure of an individual by a police officer in the field, see, e.g., Commonwealth v. Alvarado, supra at 267-268 (officers recovered handgun from motor vehicle driven by defendant after anonymous caller reported seeing "a handgun inside the motor vehicle and . . . wrapped in a towel"); Commonwealth v. Couture, supra at 178-179 (officer recovered handgun from defendant's motor vehicle after store clerk reported seeing handgun in defendant's pocket)

http://masscases.com/cases/sjc/461/461mass787.html
 

GPP

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Are you not aware of, or conveniently ignoring, the plethora of case law which generally holds that not only is the mere presence of a firearm not PC, but doesn't even rise to the level of RAS?



http://masscases.com/cases/sjc/461/461mass787.html


Read the whole thread. Im aware of what you posted, but thats not what the discussion was about.

Seizure of an individual is quite a bit different from seizure of a firearm until an LTC/FID is produced.
 
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Mike-Mike

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Can I stop a motor vehicle if I believe the operator to be unlicensed? Of course. Do I need to articulate the reason as to why Im suspicious that the operator is unlicensed? Of course.

So you can pull over ever motorist simply because you can't see their license from outside the car? NO

If the driver looks 7yo? Yes

You need to have some information that an offense is being committed.
 

dcmdon

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And instantly we are getting into the whole crux of the 4A.

I think that the ral legal issue is whether the the officer noticing a firearm is RAS of a potential crime. This has not been litigated nationally and appears to have been litigated in MA.

In CT, its written into statute effectively that presence of a firearm is not RAS.

Don
 
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A few thoughts:

There is certainly a point at which some resistance should be added to the interaction. The first "can I see your LTC?" is probably not the best choice.

Who carries a J-frame in the front pocket of tight jeans?


Chris


Maybe that should have been the question....lmfao.....
 
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Cuz being "stopped" for no reason seems like an invasion. I mean WTF?... And in this restaurant I'm guessing 30 percent of the people dining there (and probably 90 percent of the workers) aren't citizens and there had to be at least six dudes who looked Iike they were dealing something - and I don't mean blackjack...

i see it the same way as your buddy...no big deal, cause it sounded like a convo starter or maybe he wanted to give him a heads up that he was printing and to find a better way to carry...but def sounds like you guys need to find a better restaurant before you find a used needle in your burger
 
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Don is correct about CT law, as usual. I spoke to my state rep, Doug Dubitsky about it recently. Doug is a good guy, pro-2A, conservative R, a rare thing in CT, especially in CT politics. Anyway, said at the end of the last legislative session that just ended they wanted to pass a law in CT that the police could demand to see a pistol permit for no reason. It didn't make it to a vote because they ran out of time basically. So it will likely come up again and knowing CT it will pass. For now though in CT they have to have reasonable suspicion that you have committed a crime in order to ask you for your pistol permit, even if you are open carrying in downtown Bridgeport.

For me in CT, if a cop asks to see my permit my plan is to ask if I am under suspicion of committing a crime. If the cop says no and walks away, great. If he doesn't answer me but just keeps asking to see my permit as they are known to do then I will show him the permit but make it clear I am doing so voluntarily to avoid the hassle but I will ask again what crime I am under suspicion of committing. If he says I am not under suspicion of any crime but he just wanted to see my permit I will say ok but remind him that I was under no legal obligation to show him my permit just because he wanted to see it, I'm just voluntarily complying to avoid making both of our days a PITA. If he refuses to tell me why he asked for the permit, as they are known to do, I will report him to his supervisor with citation of CT law, noting what his officer did wrong as well as a reminder of the court cases CT PDs have lost in this regard costing tens of thousands of dollars and a lot of embarrassment for those PDs.
 
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Don is correct about CT law, as usual. I spoke to my state rep, Doug Dubitsky about it recently. Doug is a good guy, pro-2A conservative R, a rare thing in CT. Anyway, said at the end of the last legislative session that just ended they wanted to pass a law in CT that the police could demand to see a pistol permit for no reason. It didn't make it to a vote because they ran out of time. So it will likely come up again and knowing CT it will pass. For now though in CT they have to have reasonable suspicion that you have committed a crime in order to ask you for your pistol permit, even if you are open carrying in downtown Bridgeport.

For me, if a cop asks to see my permit my plan is to ask if I am under suspicion of committing a crime. If the cop says no and walks away, great. If he doesn't answer me but just keeps asking to see my permit as they are known to do then I will show him the permit but make it clear I am doing so voluntarily to avoid the hassle but I will ask what crime I am under suspicion of. If he refuses to answer me I will report him to his supervisor. If he says I am not under suspicion of any crime but he just wanted to see my permit I will say ok but remind him that I was under no legal obligation to show him my permit just because he wanted to see it.

I think that proposal all came from when that guy was stopped in a subway and the cops asked for his LTC and he basically told them to screw. There were a couple of threads on here about it.
 
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I think that proposal all came from when that guy was stopped in a subway and the cops asked for his LTC and he basically told them to screw. There were a couple of threads on here about it.

Yup. Honestly I don't think it's entirely unreasonable for a cop to ask for a permit if you are open carrying or printing big time but that's not the law and I don't like anyone thinking they don't have to follow the law, including cops. I don't hate cops and I don't want to make their job more difficult and I don't need the hassle/stress of arguing with them. That is why I will volunteer the permit but I will remind them of the law and make it known I was complying voluntarily, not because of any legal obligation to comply.

I know folks bring up the drivers license deal but it is a little different in my eyes. When I am fishing a game warden has the right to ask to see my fishing license for no other reason than I am fishing which requires me to buy a fishing license, same with hunting and trapping. A bar has to display it's liquor license for no other reason than they are serving alcohol. When buying alcohol I have to show my license to prove I am of age for no other reason than I am buying alcohol and there is an age requirement, even though I have gray in my beard.

With driving if they stop you they are detaining you, that's why it is different to me. When you are pulled over you cannot drive off whenever you feel like it, you have to sit there for 10-15 minutes while they look up your license, registration, etc. Asking someone to see a pistol permit (or hunting & fishing licenses) takes 30 seconds so I don't feel it reaches the level of being detained or interrogated.
 

Horrible

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Funny how the commies that control MA think that it is ok to force us to get an LTC and show said LTC on demand (to exercise a Constitutional RIGHT). But, when it comes to other Constitutional rights being exercised (like voting) showing an id is some huge burden on the average citizen?
 
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Yup. Honestly I don't think it's entirely unreasonable for a cop to ask for a permit if you are open carrying or printing big time but that's not the law and I don't like anyone thinking they don't have to follow the law, including cops. I don't hate cops and I don't want to make their job more difficult and I don't need the hassle/stress of arguing with them. That is why I will volunteer the permit but I will remind them of the law and make it known I was complying voluntarily, not because of any legal obligation to comply.

I know folks bring up the drivers license deal but it is a little different in my eyes. When I am fishing a game warden has the right to ask to see my fishing license for no other reason than I am fishing which requires me to buy a fishing license, same with hunting and trapping. A bar has to display it's liquor license for no other reason than they are serving alcohol. When buying alcohol I have to show my license to prove I am of age for no other reason than I am buying alcohol and there is an age requirement, even though I have gray in my beard.

With driving if they stop you they are detaining you, that's why it is different to me. When you are pulled over you cannot drive off whenever you feel like it, you have to sit there for 10-15 minutes while they look up your license, registration, etc. Asking someone to see a pistol permit (or hunting & fishing licenses) takes 30 seconds so I don't feel it reaches the level of being detained or interrogated.

I disagree that we need licenses to do anything. Carrying a firearm is legal. Open carrying a firearm is legal. No probable cause to even look in my direction. If I were to use the firearm in self defense or a crime then ask me. Otherwise you are violating my rights.

I live in Mass so the pols saw fit to it that if I carry then I am agreeing to have my rights violated if a cop sense I have or sees I have a firearm. Nothing can be done about that without some pro 2A votes.

As for fishing or hunting then yes, if you are actively engaged. But carrying a fishing pole near the water doesn't mean you are fishing and carrying a rifle in the woods doesn't mean you are hunting. Is there an incredible chance you are planning to engage in either instance? Absolutely. But until you have a line in the water you are not fishing. And if you are walking along through the woods with a rifle slung on your shoulder you are not necessarily hunting.

So no, they should't have a right to ask for a license in those cases until they see you actively engage in the event.

We have come to accept too many violations of our rights as "normal".
 

meh

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Funny how the commies that control MA think that it is ok to force us to get an LTC and show said LTC on demand (to exercise a Constitutional RIGHT). But, when it comes to other Constitutional rights being exercised (like voting) showing an id is some huge burden on the average citizen?

Good point. If it's a right they approve of, then they'll defend it to the point of stripping away any impediments. If it's a right they disapprove of, then they'll try to regulate it in such a manner as to deter as many people as possible from exercising it. Basically what you're talking about is a people who don't really believe in liberty (anymore). The only rights they recognize are the ones they personally value, which in a way means that they don't recognize any rights at all. If you allow the tyranny of the majority to dictate whether or not people are allowed to do something, it's just another law, not a right.
 

pastera

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The correct response should have been " Yes, I do but is it your job or just personal preference to meat gaze men leaving the restroom?"
 

M1911

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The correct response should have been " Yes, I do but is it your job or just personal preference to meat gaze men leaving the restroom?"

Do you really want to antagonize a cop? Do you think that will turn out well for you?

I understand the emotion behind it. I truly do. I just don't think it is a wise thing to do, particularly when our LTCs are issued at the discretion of our police chief.
 
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