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Correct! I am not advising anyone to play hardball with anyone. However we both know the defense could get the entire situation thrown out if tight pants played his cards right and he has nothing to gain by playing along with the games.
It's good to at least understand it's a fishing expedition and nothing more.
Even if the cop saw the gun he wouldn't have the PC to demand the license.
Even if the cop saw the gun he wouldnt have the PC to demand the license?
In MA, if a cop asks you for your LTC, you are required by law to produce it.
Everyone has their line in the sand.
If he had chosen to not answer the cop, the cop could very easily articulate escalating from the hunch/threshold inquiry/ to PC to detain and pat frisk etc etc etc.
When I instruct, I spell this shit out to people. Some probably think its bowing down and blowing the cop as he tramples their Constitutional rights, and some probably think who gives a rats ass, and do exactly what the OPs skinny jeaned buddy did.
Try again... What info did the office have that the firearm was unlawfully possessed?
So, play that out. The cop asks the question and I ignore the question and keep walking. Now the cop thinks I'm hiding something or trying to get away, gets pissed, and stops me, either by force or command. And then he demands the license. Or worse.
How is that a better outcome for me?
Explain to me what you think the right way to handle this is and how you think it would play, particularly after you piss off the cop and he sends a note to your licensing officer.
Under suspicion of what crime? Can you stop an operator of a motor vehicle under suspicion they are driving without a license? Why not just just stop everyone under suspicion they might be doing something illegal?
There doesnt have to be a crime or suspicion of one. Take a look at 140/129c. Read it all the way to the bottom.
See, e.g., Commonwealth v. Alvarado, 423 Mass. 266 , 269 (1996) ( "Carrying a gun is not a crime. Carrying a firearm without a license [or other authorization] is"); Commonwealth v. Couture, 407 Mass. 178 , 180, cert. denied, 498 U.S. 951 (1990); Commonwealth v. Toole, 389 Mass. 159 , 163-164 (1983). In those cases, we concluded that the mere presence of a firearm without more did not furnish probable cause or reasonable suspicion sufficient to justify the seizure of an individual by a police officer in the field, see, e.g., Commonwealth v. Alvarado, supra at 267-268 (officers recovered handgun from motor vehicle driven by defendant after anonymous caller reported seeing "a handgun inside the motor vehicle and . . . wrapped in a towel"); Commonwealth v. Couture, supra at 178-179 (officer recovered handgun from defendant's motor vehicle after store clerk reported seeing handgun in defendant's pocket)
Are you not aware of, or conveniently ignoring, the plethora of case law which generally holds that not only is the mere presence of a firearm not PC, but doesn't even rise to the level of RAS?
Can I stop a motor vehicle if I believe the operator to be unlicensed? Of course. Do I need to articulate the reason as to why Im suspicious that the operator is unlicensed? Of course.
A few thoughts:
There is certainly a point at which some resistance should be added to the interaction. The first "can I see your LTC?" is probably not the best choice.
Who carries a J-frame in the front pocket of tight jeans?
Cuz being "stopped" for no reason seems like an invasion. I mean WTF?... And in this restaurant I'm guessing 30 percent of the people dining there (and probably 90 percent of the workers) aren't citizens and there had to be at least six dudes who looked Iike they were dealing something - and I don't mean blackjack...
Don is correct about CT law, as usual. I spoke to my state rep, Doug Dubitsky about it recently. Doug is a good guy, pro-2A conservative R, a rare thing in CT. Anyway, said at the end of the last legislative session that just ended they wanted to pass a law in CT that the police could demand to see a pistol permit for no reason. It didn't make it to a vote because they ran out of time. So it will likely come up again and knowing CT it will pass. For now though in CT they have to have reasonable suspicion that you have committed a crime in order to ask you for your pistol permit, even if you are open carrying in downtown Bridgeport.
For me, if a cop asks to see my permit my plan is to ask if I am under suspicion of committing a crime. If the cop says no and walks away, great. If he doesn't answer me but just keeps asking to see my permit as they are known to do then I will show him the permit but make it clear I am doing so voluntarily to avoid the hassle but I will ask what crime I am under suspicion of. If he refuses to answer me I will report him to his supervisor. If he says I am not under suspicion of any crime but he just wanted to see my permit I will say ok but remind him that I was under no legal obligation to show him my permit just because he wanted to see it.
I think that proposal all came from when that guy was stopped in a subway and the cops asked for his LTC and he basically told them to screw. There were a couple of threads on here about it.
Yup. Honestly I don't think it's entirely unreasonable for a cop to ask for a permit if you are open carrying or printing big time but that's not the law and I don't like anyone thinking they don't have to follow the law, including cops. I don't hate cops and I don't want to make their job more difficult and I don't need the hassle/stress of arguing with them. That is why I will volunteer the permit but I will remind them of the law and make it known I was complying voluntarily, not because of any legal obligation to comply.
I know folks bring up the drivers license deal but it is a little different in my eyes. When I am fishing a game warden has the right to ask to see my fishing license for no other reason than I am fishing which requires me to buy a fishing license, same with hunting and trapping. A bar has to display it's liquor license for no other reason than they are serving alcohol. When buying alcohol I have to show my license to prove I am of age for no other reason than I am buying alcohol and there is an age requirement, even though I have gray in my beard.
With driving if they stop you they are detaining you, that's why it is different to me. When you are pulled over you cannot drive off whenever you feel like it, you have to sit there for 10-15 minutes while they look up your license, registration, etc. Asking someone to see a pistol permit (or hunting & fishing licenses) takes 30 seconds so I don't feel it reaches the level of being detained or interrogated.
Funny how the commies that control MA think that it is ok to force us to get an LTC and show said LTC on demand (to exercise a Constitutional RIGHT). But, when it comes to other Constitutional rights being exercised (like voting) showing an id is some huge burden on the average citizen?
The correct response should have been " Yes, I do but is it your job or just personal preference to meat gaze men leaving the restroom?"