Small 9mm for carry - what to get?

Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Apr 1, 2005
Messages
190
Likes
0
Location
Newton, New Hampshire
The Kahr PM9 in 9MM is a decent choice, but I'd step up to the PM40. .40 cal., about 17 oz., with a 3" barrel. More bang for the buck, and a much more effective round. If you want a true pocket pistol, look at a Kel-Tec P-3AT. .380 cal.(roughly the same as 9MM), about 11 oz. loaded, 5"" long overall. Find a good .380 defensive round, like Federal Hydra-Shoks, and you have a nice little in-close pistol, good at 7-15 feet. I have a Beretta 950 Jetfire in .25 cal. I carry in the summer, sometimes. Use FMJ ammo, as the .25 won't mushroom. I may get a 3032 Tomcat in .32 cal., but the P-3AT does intrique me.
 

Chris

NES Member
Rating - 100%
6   0   0
Joined
May 24, 2005
Messages
12,141
Likes
5,326
Location
Just east of Zone 9, but in Worcester County.
Kahr and Kel-Tec are not legal in MA for sale from a dealer. The P-3AT came out after the law, so there isn't likely to be ANY available in state. Even the P32 is VERY rare.

(for some fun, check out this modified P32. Now this MIGHT be a decent pocket pistol, but I'd hate to trust me life on somethign I cooked up.

P32 'sporter'

.380 (9mm Kurtz, or 9x17) is significantly weaker than the average 9x19 and there is no spec for +p as there is in the more common 9.

Believe it or not, the .25ACP actually has less energy than a .22LR.

Even a .32 has trouble mushrooming and FMJ ball is recommended for winter use as the hollowpoints can be stopped by heavy clothing.

For defense, 9x19 is really the lowest caliber that can be recommended. Below that it is a major compromise.
 

M1911

Moderator
NES Member
Rating - 100%
27   0   0
Joined
Apr 1, 2005
Messages
39,733
Likes
8,134
Location
Near Framingham
The Kahr PM9 in 9MM is a decent choice, but I'd step up to the PM40.
I haven't shot the PM9 or PM40. I do have an MK9, K9, and K40. The K9 is very pleasant to shoot. The MK9 is not bad. The K40 is distinctly unpleasant to shoot.

If we did have the opportunity to buy Kahrs in MA, I'd try the PM9 long before the PM40. YMMV.
 
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
Joined
Nov 8, 2005
Messages
28,917
Likes
7,398
M1911 said:
I haven't shot the PM9 or PM40. I do have an MK9, K9, and K40. The K9 is very pleasant to shoot. The MK9 is not bad. The K40 is distinctly unpleasant to shoot.

If we did have the opportunity to buy Kahrs in MA, I'd try the PM9 long before the PM40. YMMV.

Hey, the .357 Sig falls between 9 and 40. I wonder if Kahr or an aftermarket barrel maker has considered that chambering for these.

That said, the Makarov STILL falls between .380 and 9mm in power, size, price for the round and probably smaller, middle power, and less expensive for the gun.
 

dwarven1

Appleseed Instructor
Rating - 100%
33   0   0
Joined
Mar 13, 2005
Messages
27,707
Likes
2,086
Location
Starksboro, VT
Cross-X said:
So, has our Resident Grammarian Dwarf bought a small pistol yet, or is he still dithering? (smile)
No, and no [smile]. I'm still waiting for my Walther PPK to sell - once that happens, I know where there are some Kahrs (both new and used) and will go and purchase one.
 

Cross-X

Shooting at the big range in heaven
Dealer
NES Member
Rating - 100%
9   0   0
Joined
Jul 30, 2005
Messages
8,502
Likes
257
Location
Metrowest, MA & Points South and West
dwarven1 said:
No, and no [smile]. I'm still waiting for my Walther PPK to sell - once that happens, I know where there are some Kahrs (both new and used) and will go and purchase one.

Once you get one, ask DR for a few tips -- he sure shoots the ass off of his Kahr, and it's a compact!
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Apr 1, 2005
Messages
190
Likes
0
Location
Newton, New Hampshire
Not legal in Mass?

Chris said:
Kahr and Kel-Tec are not legal in MA for sale from a dealer. The P-3AT came out after the law, so there isn't likely to be ANY available in state. Even the P32 is VERY rare.

Move to New Hampshire where you can buy anything you want.............with highcaps.
 

dreppucci007

Moderator
NES Member
Rating - 100%
16   0   0
Joined
Nov 18, 2005
Messages
13,168
Likes
249
Location
Life Free or Die
Buffalo Bill said:
Chris said:
Kahr and Kel-Tec are not legal in MA for sale from a dealer. The P-3AT came out after the law, so there isn't likely to be ANY available in state. Even the P32 is VERY rare.

Move to New Hampshire where you can buy anything you want.............with highcaps.


Actually Buffalo Bill, there are quite a few Kahr guns that are on the most recent EOPS approved roster, and CAN be purchased from a dealer in MA.

Also, there are ALWAYS some in the state even if they weren't on the roster yet. People who move to MA and bring their Kahrs or H&K USPs can bring them in and sell them FTF here with no problem.
 

wheelgun

NES Member
Rating - 100%
4   0   0
Joined
Feb 5, 2006
Messages
465
Likes
53
Location
Massachusetts
dwarven1 said:
Now... what to get? What I want:
Small - pocket sized.
9MM or above (9mm is LOTS cheaper to practice with than .380, not to mention having more punch)


Thanks,
Ross

wink])

You should get a .40, not 9mm and certainly not .380. The .40 is a much better stopper than the 9mm (with lots of real data to prove it), and has very little recoil. Also, .40 ammo is pretty cheap.
 
Last edited:

M1911

Moderator
NES Member
Rating - 100%
27   0   0
Joined
Apr 1, 2005
Messages
39,733
Likes
8,134
Location
Near Framingham
The .40 is a much better stopper than the 9mm (with lots of real data to prove it), and has very little recoil. Also, .40 ammo is pretty cheap.
Just curious. Have actually fired an MK40?

I have not. But based on my experience with my K40, K9, and MK9, I suspect that I would not consider the MK40 recoil to be "very little". Second, you can't buy a new MK40 in MA. MK9, MK40, and PM9 are all very hard to find in MA.
 

wheelgun

NES Member
Rating - 100%
4   0   0
Joined
Feb 5, 2006
Messages
465
Likes
53
Location
Massachusetts
M1911 said:
Just curious. Have actually fired an MK40?

I have not. But based on my experience with my K40, K9, and MK9, I suspect that I would not consider the MK40 recoil to be "very little". Second, you can't buy a new MK40 in MA. MK9, MK40, and PM9 are all very hard to find in MA.

Sorry, I joined this thread late. I was not referring to any particular gun model. I've never shot any of the models you list above. I'm just saying for a given model the .40 recoil is only slightly more than the 9mm. I owned a S&W 4006 for several years and it was very pleasant to shoot. I've shot the 9mm equivalent as well, and the slightly lower recoil was not worth the reduced stopping power IMHO. The only advantage of the 9mm at the time was a bit higher capacity, but since civilians in MA are now limited to 10 rounds that's a moot point.

But if you're talking specifically about a micro gun like the MK series, I agree that's a different ballgame. If you must have a true pocket gun you've got to sacrifice something. There are guy's carrying things like the S&W 340, a 12oz .357 with pretty savage recoil, refusing to compromise on stopping power. It's a personal choice. Reminds me of the the old saying: " I can give you low recoil, small size, and the ability to take down elephants..... choose two."
 
Last edited:

Len-2A Training

Instructor
Instructor
NES Life Member
NES Member
Rating - 98.6%
71   1   0
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
54,774
Likes
15,409
Location
NH
.40 and 9mm recoil is NOT the same or even close in many guns.

One shot with my H&K USP .40c and my Wife was ranting at me about the recoil (many years ago).

She now shoots (but rarely) her G17 (9mm) and no complaints about recoil. I'm certain that my G22 (.40) would be too much recoil for her.

There are many factors at play regarding perceived recoil (someone posted a link to an online recoil calculator) so that one can not safely make accurate statements such as was done here.

As C-X stated, many believe all hi-caps are illegal in MA, but that is nothing but erroneous BS. In the same vein, many dealers will tell you that new hi-cap mags are perfectly legal if they aren't marked "LE/Mil Only" on them . . . also BS wrt to the MA NEW hi-cap ban.
 

drgrant

Moderator
NES Member
Rating - 100%
61   0   0
Joined
Mar 21, 2006
Messages
82,093
Likes
68,628
wheelgun said:
You should get a .40, not 9mm and certainly not .380. The .40 is a much better stopper than the 9mm (with lots of real data to prove it), and has very little recoil. Also, .40 ammo is pretty cheap.


Please cite some sources (other than marshall and sanow, who've already
been widely discredited) to back this up.

It depends on the school of wound ballistics that you believe
in. If you're one of the "energy transfer" types, then I'm surprised
you're not telling him to get a G29. After all, it's a lot more powerful
than anything in .40 S+W is. :)

Reality has shown, that with humans, everything in the 9mm to
.45 ACP range is more or less the same level of "real" terminal
effectiveness. Real meaning the only factors that matter are bullet
penetration depth and permanent wound cavity.

After that it seems the only "real" difference in many cases is
intermediate barrier penetration. One of the reasons the .357 Sig has become so popular is not because of "stopping power" but because it can
make it through a layer of auto glass or a car door and still "work" when it
hits a target on the other side.

I won't discredit "energy transfer" entirely, but most of the evidence
out there seems to point to it as being BS. The only compelling evidence
ive seen about energy transfer in handgun calibers is that when Ammolab
was still open, the .357 Sig and the 10mm Auto were the only two calibers
to crack the boards in their testing jig. Those boards held the jello block
in place. What that means in reality? We don't really know.

And FWIW, I'm not a caliber nazi. I own and carry everything from
9mm to 10mm Auto, on a regular basis. I don't feel "undergunned"
with any of them. Of course given a choice, I'd rather have a
rifle, but that's obviously not very concealable. :) The only caliber
I conciously avoid for defensive purpouses is .25 ACP.... it's horrendeously
anemic, even compared to .22 LR.

-Mike
 
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
Joined
Nov 8, 2005
Messages
28,917
Likes
7,398
drgrant said:
...I won't discredit "energy transfer" entirely, but most of the evidence out there seems to point to it as being BS. The only compelling evidence ive seen about energy transfer in handgun calibers is that when Ammolab was still open, the .357 Sig and the 10mm Auto were the only two calibers to crack the boards in their testing jig. ...

Not even the 357 Magnum or 44 Magnum? I'll assume this is before the .480 Ruger, 454 Casull, etc.
 

Len-2A Training

Instructor
Instructor
NES Life Member
NES Member
Rating - 98.6%
71   1   0
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
54,774
Likes
15,409
Location
NH
Recoil calculator:

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

Info on reloads:

http://www.handloads.com

Disclaimer: Someone else posted the link in another thread, so I'm posting it here as relevant to discussion. I have not spent any time at that site, so can not give an opinion of accuracy or value of info found there.
 

dwarven1

Appleseed Instructor
Rating - 100%
33   0   0
Joined
Mar 13, 2005
Messages
27,707
Likes
2,086
Location
Starksboro, VT
drgrant said:
The only caliber I conciously avoid for defensive purpouses is .25 ACP.... it's horrendeously anemic, even compared to .22 LR.
It's also one of the most unreliable rounds I've ever seen - every .25 I've ever shot or seen shot has had FTFs. I'd rather trust my Davis .22Mag derringer than a .25!
 

wheelgun

NES Member
Rating - 100%
4   0   0
Joined
Feb 5, 2006
Messages
465
Likes
53
Location
Massachusetts
drgrant said:
Please cite some sources (other than marshall and sanow, who've already
been widely discredited) to back this up.

It depends on the school of wound ballistics that you believe
in. If you're one of the "energy transfer" types, then I'm surprised
you're not telling him to get a G29. After all, it's a lot more powerful
than anything in .40 S+W is. :)

-Mike

Well, yes a G29 should be better, assuming the 10mm performs similiary to the .357, which I believe the data has shown. The majority of police and other real data shows that the .357 is most effective. But this thread was originally about a small carry gun, and the 1omm recoil disqualifies it here. Same for ..357 or .45 ( at least for me).

As far as the effectiveness of the .40, it's been adopted widely by police over the years and like the .357 has proven itself to be very effective. I don't have actual data sources, but read any reputable survey on the subject and it always comes out very highly ranked.

In real life, 10 shots on target with a 9mm is probably better than three with a .40. So again, the overall balance is important. If you must have a very light MKxx gun, then I guess you may be limited to 9mm if that's the limit of recoil control you can handle comfortably. It 's always a compromise. Personally I choose a larger gun with a larger caliber and suffer the slightly greater inconvenience of carrying it. I'm not a LEO and don't need a tiny BUG.
 

wheelgun

NES Member
Rating - 100%
4   0   0
Joined
Feb 5, 2006
Messages
465
Likes
53
Location
Massachusetts
Cross-X said:
Yet another old, tired MA gun law myth rears its ugly head.



Not true! Not true! It's a myth!

True for new magazines. I wasn't considering pre-94 mags. But how many pre-1994 mags are available for semi-auto handguns? I claim ignorance there, but I see that numerous on-line stores are claiming they have no more available for major brands like Glock etc. I mean they're not like AR mags which are availabe pre-94 for cheap by the fistful.
 

M1911

Moderator
NES Member
Rating - 100%
27   0   0
Joined
Apr 1, 2005
Messages
39,733
Likes
8,134
Location
Near Framingham
I'm just saying for a given model the .40 recoil is only slightly more than the 9mm.
I'm going to disagree with this. I've got a K9 and a K40. The K40 is only marginally larger than the K9. For me, the K9 is quite pleasant to shoot but the K40 is quite unpleasant to shoot.

So I'm going to say "it depends." It depends upon the gun and the shooter.
 

drgrant

Moderator
NES Member
Rating - 100%
61   0   0
Joined
Mar 21, 2006
Messages
82,093
Likes
68,628
Coyote33 said:
Not even the 357 Magnum or 44 Magnum? I'll assume this is before the .480 Ruger, 454 Casull, etc.

I don't think ammolab has tested any of the loudenboomer wheelgun
calibers. Some of them would likely offer deep penetration and
crack the plate, and expand nicely. I think ammolabs intent was to
analyze calibers, barrel lengths, and ammo commonly used for duty
use- which these days 99.9% of the time involves an semiautomatic
handgun of some sort. Wheelguns arent seen in LE much anymore save
for a few holdouts that prefer to carry them and a lot of BUGs
(eg a J-frame).

-Mike
 

drgrant

Moderator
NES Member
Rating - 100%
61   0   0
Joined
Mar 21, 2006
Messages
82,093
Likes
68,628
wheelgun said:
True for new magazines. I wasn't considering pre-94 mags. But how many pre-1994 mags are available for semi-auto handguns? I claim ignorance there, but I see that numerous on-line stores are claiming they have no more available for major brands like Glock etc. I mean they're not like AR mags which are availabe pre-94 for cheap by the fistful.

I can agree that MA gun owners get screwed WRT hicaps for compact
pistols. Eg, some of the newer compacts came out post-ban, so high
capacity mags for them simply didnt exist before the ban, unless it would
take mags made for some other model of pistol.

Otherwise there are tons of Glock, Beretta, Sig, and even some HK mags
floating around out there... that are availiable as "preban". Mind you,
some of the gun show guys are getting away with selling stuff as preban that
really isn't, but they can get away with it every time, because in a few cases,
the design of the magazine hasnt really changed since 1994.... and
it's often impossible for the buyer to know what theyre actually getting
sometimes. A lot of magazines were sent here from europe during the
ban as well. (Not to mention some leaked govt contract stuff which was
allowed to be made without the markings, so thus got sold as preban, re,
the HK MK23 mags that were often sold preban, were widely considered to
be contract overruns or stolen government property.)

-Mike
 
Top Bottom