J
Jose
There IS dignity in fighting those who choose to victimize people.
At least there is for those who follow the teachings of Jesus.
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Hypothetical- ccw
- Thread starter tools8288
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At least there is for those who follow the teachings of Jesus.
Survival is obviously important, but many things are relative.
Shooting a piece of shit and sitting in jail is still more "dignified" than getting robbed or raped. The system has its own faults but at least it has to work within constraints. Violent criminals know no such constraints.
Spend a little time talking with someone who has been a victim of a violent crime and you'll get the drift. The ones that haven't been completely hosed mentally by the experience they've had will often state they never want to live through it again, at nearly any cost. There is a lot more to self defense than just physical "survival. "
-Mike
I would like your money so feel free to give it to me if you don't need it.
![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
On a more serious note, there are a couple of interesting forces at work here. First, people are often split between "give them what they want" vs "go get your own I've earned this". This is an entirely different decision point than "is my life in danger".
There are cases where your life is not in danger regardless of whether or not you give him the money. Second, there are cases where you ARE in danger regardless of whether or not you surrender your money.
I would focus on whether or not I thought my life was threatened and if so, do something about it. There is a very fine line that we are forced to walk, and probably even finer for most police. If you act too suddenly, you're a Bernie Goetz. If you try and give the bad guy every option to back down, you are guilty of pulling a weapon when you weren't in immediate danger. If you wait until there is absolutely no other recourse, you may have made a fatal error.
Love this thread! Full of win!
My 2 cents, and I have thought about this, with gun, with threat of gun, with knife, with threat of knife, etc. It's all the same to me. I figure I have ONE tactical advantage and ONE chance to use it, that's the fake compliance while slowly reaching for the wallet/gun.
"Hey, hey, ok! You can have my wallet, I'll even give you my pin number, whatever you want, whatever you want" as you slowly reach for the gun and then -- bang
that's it. The only response I will have for ANY scenario involving a mugging with a deadly weapon, seen or implied.
You don't have to be a quick draw for this. You get to take your sweet time retrieving your gun because mugger thinks you're retrieving wallet.
What the hell are you going to do if you DO give up your wallet, hand it to him, now your hands are in front of you, he pulls out the gun he told you he had and says "On your knees bitch!"? What then? You have gone from tactical advantage to about to die, for what???
My 2 cents, and I have thought about this, with gun, with threat of gun, with knife, with threat of knife, etc. It's all the same to me. I figure I have ONE tactical advantage and ONE chance to use it, that's the fake compliance while slowly reaching for the wallet/gun.
"Hey, hey, ok! You can have my wallet, I'll even give you my pin number, whatever you want, whatever you want" as you slowly reach for the gun and then -- bang
that's it. The only response I will have for ANY scenario involving a mugging with a deadly weapon, seen or implied.
You don't have to be a quick draw for this. You get to take your sweet time retrieving your gun because mugger thinks you're retrieving wallet.
What the hell are you going to do if you DO give up your wallet, hand it to him, now your hands are in front of you, he pulls out the gun he told you he had and says "On your knees bitch!"? What then? You have gone from tactical advantage to about to die, for what???
Amen... The "violence" I experienced was relatively mild (though deadly force was present) by my own assessment...
Though I've heard/read of people being damaged by less, I can easily imagine how a less favorable outcome would be exponentially more psychologically damaging...
It's been 20+ years since my incident and I still think about it and what I _could_ have done differently despite the fact that I _walked away_ with largely superficial injuries...
The only thing more irritating than that moment of random anger at yourself for not "doing this or that differently" is liberals and naive people who describe all the perfectly rational, well thought out things that one could do in such situations...
Here's a hint - hindsight and daylight are two wonderful things you are not going to have on your side when assaulted in the dark...
![[laugh2]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/014.gif "Laugh at above [laugh2]")
Not to worry Timber, don't even need to answer the question, just keep your boyfriend happy and well fed and the Cekim will protect both of you...
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
Question for anyone on the "shoot first, ask questions later" side of the argument: The BG says he has a gun, and asks for money. You pull your gun and blast away. When the echos die down, you dial 911.
What happens if the cops don't find a deadly weapon on the BG? You con't have ANY evidence you were threatened.
It's almost as bad if the cops find a deadly weapon, but it's still in his pocket.
What happens if the cops don't find a deadly weapon on the BG? You con't have ANY evidence you were threatened.
It's almost as bad if the cops find a deadly weapon, but it's still in his pocket.
That'd be a hell of a way to go out, wouldn't it??
Mugger: "Give me your wallet, I have a gun!"
Victim: "Your shoe's untied"
Mugger: <Looks Down>
Victim: <BLAM!>
Mugger: <with dying breath> "Mother-F***ER!! The last time I fell for sh*t like that I was in 2nd Grade. Mother-F............. <dead>
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
Well, someone here advocated having 10 dollars on a cheap money clip to use as "throw away" cash. Maybe, we should all carry a cheap Saturday Night Special and plant that on the dead bad guy.
![[rolleyes]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/042.gif "Roll Eyes [rolleyes]")
This has been discussed throughout this commentary... We fully understand this as "THE PROBLEM", but the reality is that all you have is his threat and the reality is that it is "his word against yours" (even if he is dead).
"proving assault" is difficult for this same reason - any ADA will tell you this... You are at the mercy of perception after the fact in court...
The attackers record, your record, eyewitnesses, blah, blah, blah... will all come into play...
The problem is that you WILL NOT have the luxury of all this hindsight at the time. There is technology one could employ these days to help your case if you are more concerned with this than you are staying alive...
There are recording devices which are "always running" and you can press a button after-the fact to retain the last "N" minutes...
Most cell phones also have a "record function"...
Hey nice shoes, wanna f**k??
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
That would get the BG attention long enough to ventilate him.............
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That'd be a hell of a way to go out, wouldn't it??
Mugger: "Give me your wallet, I have a gun!"
Victim: "Your shoe's untied"
Mugger: <Looks Down>
Victim: <BLAM!>
Mugger: <with dying breath> "Mother-F***ER!! The last time I fell for sh*t like that I was in 2nd Grade. Mother-F............. <dead>
.Danny Vermin said:
Chris
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The name of the person I heard that idea from is Massad Ayoob.
You can go argue the fine points with him if you like.
M1911
Moderator
Me, too.
I forgot Massad Ayoob is God...
He is a very smart cookie to be sure, but not everything he advocates people agree with. If that were the case, all of you would be packing Ruger P345's...![[thinking]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/010.gif "Thinking [thinking]")
There are also some pretty smart cookies who would tell you that in the time it takes to pull out a money clip with some "throw down cash", you're already dead...This is not Personal Defense TV or a friggin book of personal defense theory - this is real life. Seek out the number of clerks who gave up the money, or the number of marks on the street who coughed up their wallet and got shot anyway.
Screw carrying a gun - everyone just sport some throw down cash and the scumbag with shower you with flower petals as he takes his 10-bucks and believes it's all you have...After all - all criminals are gullible
He is a very smart cookie to be sure, but not everything he advocates people agree with. If that were the case, all of you would be packing Ruger P345's...
There are also some pretty smart cookies who would tell you that in the time it takes to pull out a money clip with some "throw down cash", you're already dead...This is not Personal Defense TV or a friggin book of personal defense theory - this is real life. Seek out the number of clerks who gave up the money, or the number of marks on the street who coughed up their wallet and got shot anyway.
Screw carrying a gun - everyone just sport some throw down cash and the scumbag with shower you with flower petals as he takes his 10-bucks and believes it's all you have...After all - all criminals are gullible
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I forgot Massad Ayoob is God...
He is a very smart cookie to be sure, but not everything he advocates people agree with. If that were the case, all of you would be packing Ruger P345's...
There are also some pretty smart cookies who would tell you that in the time it takes to pull out a money clip with some "throw down cash", you're already dead...This is not Personal Defense TV or a friggin book of personal defense theory - this is real life. Seek out the number of clerks who gave up the money, or the number of marks on the street who coughed up their wallet and got shot anyway.
Screw carrying a gun - everyone just sport some throw down cash and the scu,bag with shower you with flower petals as he takes his 10-bucks and believes it's all you have...After all - all criminals are gullible
+1
Don't trash Ayoob. As with most trainers you take the pieces that work for you from each one. Ayoob teaches some things I agree with and other things I don't. Most trainers are like that and they should be.
M1911
Moderator
He's not. And I don't think Chris is saying that. I'm certainly not.
Ayoob has plenty of opinions. You might agree with some of them. Heck, Ayoob doesn't always agree with himself, either.
When I took LFI-1, Ayoob said just that. Consider his opinions and techniques. Use them if the work for you. Don't use them if they don't. I find that to be far more refreshing than some trainers who insist theirs is the only one true way.
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Exactly.
Unlike the teachings of Yeager - those are more serious works for the discerning low-drag operator....
Don't trash Ayoob. As with most trainers you take the pieces that work for you from each one. Ayoob teaches some things I agree with and other things I don't. Most trainers are like that and they should be.
+1.
Also, Ayoob teaches the kung-fu based "crazy water bottle submission" technique, so that's worth the price of admission alone.
-Mike
i don't carry a laptop into the bathroom. trust me, if i did, yeager's videos would be the greatest bathroom aid available. all that badass down range photography. i'd just imagine myself downrange like that, and i would poop myself to death. i would poop so much my colon would blow out in a long fluttering ribbon like a party toy making tooting noises.
I bet you were the guy that wrote the Ryans Steakhouse incident?
-Mike
i don't carry a laptop into the bathroom. trust me, if i did, yeager's videos would be the greatest bathroom aid available. all that badass down range photography. i'd just imagine myself downrange like that, and i would poop myself to death. i would poop so much my colon would blow out in a long fluttering ribbon like a party toy making tooting noises.
![[rofl2]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/035.gif "ROFL2 [rofl2]")
pdm
NES Member
i don't carry a laptop into the bathroom. trust me, if i did, yeager's videos would be the greatest bathroom aid available. all that badass down range photography. i'd just imagine myself downrange like that, and i would poop myself to death. i would poop so much my colon would blow out in a long fluttering ribbon like a party toy making tooting noises.
That could just be the Super Colon Blow (tm).
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The real victims of this hypothetical situation are those of us in red towns whose only option is to hand over everything and hope the gun is a bluff.
