Hypothetical- ccw

I'm of the opinion if he doesn't show it, he doesn't have it. But in Mass, the threat of a weapon is armed robbery. I am not handing over anything to anyone if I can draw instead.

bang, bang
 
If you are given the chance to draw under the described decision, you have a choice to make - do you take control of the situation while you can, or pass on an opportunity that may not be presented a second time and turn control of the situation over to someone who has threatened to kill you and informed you they have a weapon with which to accomplish said act.
 
Chris said:
Carry "Toss cash". $10 on a cheap money clip. If that does not suffice, the argument that robbery wasn't the motive is a lot stronger.
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"Toss cash" is no different than drawing and not firing, either way you are waiting to see what happens next, probably not the best move.
 
If the mugger had his hands in his pockets claiming to have a gun, I would immediately assume the gun was pointed at me.

If I could see both of his hands being empty I don't see it being an issue with drawing my firearm without shooting until I assess the situation.

The way I look at it, if I have my firearm out first, I can pull the trigger before he can reach for his firearm if his plan was to return fire after seeing my gun.
 
Palladin said:
I'm of the opinion if he doesn't show it, he doesn't have it. But in Mass, the threat of a weapon is armed robbery. I am not handing over anything to anyone if I can draw instead.

bang, bang
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$10 in a clip is a hell of a lot less expensive than Darius's rates. If that's all it takes, I'd rather go that route than not. (no offense Darius, love ya like a brother, but I pray I never need those kind of services from you. But I do have you on speed dial just in case.) On the other hand, while Mongo's eyes are on that clip with the cash, you can be sure my other hand is ready to go.
 
Derek33 said:
If the mugger had his hands in his pockets claiming to have a gun, I would immediately assume the gun was pointed at me.

If I could see both of his hands being empty I don't see it being an issue with drawing my firearm without shooting until I assess the situation.

The way I look at it, if I have my firearm out first, I can pull the trigger before he can reach for his firearm if his plan was to return fire after seeing my gun.
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I agree with this. I was assuming BG had hand in pocket. I would give cash rather than race to draw. It's a loss either way. If i draw and beat him it was only that he didn't have a gun and now I shot a bluffer. If he did have a gun pointed at me his finger will be faster than my draw.
 
Mike-Mike said:
Amount of cash i carry? $40

Amount of Criminal defense attorney and lost work time? $6,000
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So in your mind then, there's a 100% probability that if you defend yourself charges will be filed, and that if you comply the BG will walk away?


Let's say you have your kids or wife with you when this happens? Do you still comply?

I'm just saying that if someone threatens my life in trying to take what's mine, it's too much of a gamble to think that everything's going to work out if I comply.
 
mugged by an individual who stated he had a gun, but never produced it
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In the OP's post, no gun was evident. Regardless of what Mongo says, I'd need a little more than words to reach 'deadly threat'. Again, situation matters. How'd it look if the scum gets shot and when searched only had his library card and bus pass?

Sure, most of you would say "good job", but I'll bet you anything Martha would be getting ready to put another notch in her bedpost.
 
jhblaze1 said:
That's for you to decide. I'm just not giving my money to anyone ever so..whatever that means to you.
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It would be one thing if it was truly "just about the money". If a victim could know with absolute certainty they would not be harmed for compliance, then throwing 10-20 bucks or whatever at the BG to make them go away is literally getting off cheap. Problem is, there is no certainty in these situations, unless you're being robbed by an armless man or something similarly bizarre. [laugh]

The problem is if someone uses a threat of physical violence against you, then the issue is no longer "just about the money". The BG might still kill you anyways as you are now an eyewitness to his felonious act of armed robbery. I would not want to bet my life on the word(s) of a violent criminal. Others may feel differently. Of course, the devil is in the details. It's hard to say what you would do in such a situation without seeing the whole situation. I know some guys who would have called this guys (likely) bluff and just broke his nose. (one may rationalize- if this guy really has a gun, then why am I not seeing it? ) I know others who simply would have shot him right after that proclamation, not wanting to test whether or not he was actually bluffing.

The legal risk with the latter is somewhat obvious. Shoot an unarmed man and you might have a tough road to hoe. The law may defend your actions but weepy libtards will not, because if they find out he was unarmed they might (wrongly) jump to the conclusion that the BG was not a real threat. Weepy relatives of the asshat saying crap like "My little Mongo was just turning his life around, trying to get over his crack addiction... wah wah wah..." etc. Legal defense is certainly possible but I wouldn't envy it, especially not in this state.

In a perfect world theft, or attempted theft by threat of violence would be an automatic precursor to lawful self defense via deadly force, but we don't live in that world, generally speaking, outside of a few states that have a relatively low bar to satisfy for lawful self defense. (EG, FL, TX, etc. )

-Mike
 
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Chris said:
In the OP's post, no gun was evident. Regardless of what Mongo says, I'd need a little more than words to reach 'deadly threat'. Again, situation matters. How'd it look if the scum gets shot and when searched only had his library card and bus pass?

Sure, most of you would say "good job", but I'll bet you anything Martha would be getting ready to put another notch in her bedpost.
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The MA state government has archived it's goal by making victims second guess themselves when it comes to life and death.

If you go in to a bank and tell them you have a gun without showing it, the police will shoot you dead.
 
Mike-Mike said:
I agree with this. I was assuming BG had hand in pocket. I would give cash rather than race to draw. It's a loss either way. If i draw and beat him it was only that he didn't have a gun and now I shot a bluffer. If he did have a gun pointed at me his finger will be faster than my draw.
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Fair enough, but let's take a different situation. BG has a gun pointing at you while he makes his demands. Isn't his finger going to be faster than your draw then too? If that's the case, I ask under what circumstances would you ever be prepared to use deadly force?

We all take a big risk in carrying guns. We know that from the moment we decide being an armed citizen is something we're interested in doing. There's always the chance of criminal charges and civil suits. We know that but we take the risk anyway because we believe that defending our lives and the lives of our loved ones outweighs those risks. There's no point in carrying a gun if you're not prepared to use it. And I'm not attacking you or suggesting that you're not prepared to use your gun. I'm not trying to offend here.

Certainly any time you pull your gun the situation is escalated exponentially with a whole new set of outcomes. I don't want those outcomes to be decided by some scum bag crackhead mugger. I think I'm much more level headed then him and the decision making is best left to me.

In my opinion, a mugger who says he's armed is not a person I'm prepared to trust. I have no reason whatsoever to believe that someone is not going to shoot me after I give them my money.
 
MACGYVR said:
Kill the bastard and leave.
Dont call the cops. Dont wait around for them. Save you alot of headaches
If he mugged you, there were probably no witnesses in the area either.


bad guy just becomes another random victim found on the street
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First of all, if you actions are justifiable then you shouldn't run and hide. Secondly, your advice is full of unlawful actions.

The jails are full of people who did something and thought that they hadn't been seen.
 
derek said:
The MA state government has archived it's goal by making victims second guess themselves when it comes to life and death.

If you go in to a bank and tell them you have a gun without showing it, the police will shoot you dead.
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which is just adorable on it's own.

MA citizen: Not allowed to use deadly force to protect private property.
MA State: Public officers allowed to shoot you dead in protecting others' private property.
 
jhblaze1 said:
In my opinion, a mugger who says he's armed is not a person I'm prepared to trust. I have no reason whatsoever to believe that someone is not going to shoot me after I give them my money.
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+1 It's honestly as simple as that. Everyone needs to make the decision on how they want to go out. I'd rather go out fighting than watch someone pull the trigger on me while I am throwing down some "Throw away cash".

To each their own, I think if someone people actually witnessed this stuff first hand they might think differently.
 
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jhblaze1 said:
If that's the case, I ask under what circumstances would you ever be prepared to use deadly force?
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Our firearms are another tool in the arsenal we have. I would use whatever I though would get me out safest. If at the time I though that might be to give up my phone and cash then I would. If I though the person was out to hurt me than I would use whatever I thought was the safest way to end this quickly.

But people making statements like "I would never give up my hard earned money" on a public forum is not going to help your case.
 
All you people who said the safest and best way is to shoot the person should note that the OP's brother got out of this with the least amount of inconvenience by simply handing over the phone and cc.
 
jhblaze1 said:
Fair enough, but let's take a different situation. BG has a gun pointing at you while he makes his demands.
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How close?

If he's close enough to hand him the wallet, he'll never hit me. (yea, that sounds like bragging, but I've demonstrated it many times) A knife on the other hand would be far more of a threat at that distance.

This is all really academic. Situation matters. Even small details can make a difference.

How many of you would even have someone get that close without already being on high alert? I just love the "what-if" scenarios that start with Mongo already in your face. How did that happen?
 
Mike-Mike said:
But people making statements like "I would never give up my hard earned money" on a public forum is not going to help your case.
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It has nothing to do with the money, it has to do with a unpredictable armed predator that has you in his sights. I could care less if I lost the money in my wallet today, however I am not going to allow a psycho the chance to end my life. If the threat is presented to defend the use of deadly force, in the OP it was, I am going to use the hardest and most effective force possible to save my life. Not mace, not yelling, not 911, not throwing down money. It's pretty cut and dry.
 
Chris said:
How many of you would even have someone get that close without already being on high alert? I just love the "what-if" scenarios that start with Mongo already in your face. How did that happen?
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Even if your SA is high and keen the S can HTF quickly.
 
Mike-Mike said:
All you people who said the safest and best way is to shoot the person should note that the OP's brother got out of this with the least amount of inconvenience by simply handing over the phone and cc.
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I guess it's an easier choice when it's not actually your stuff you're giving away. The OP's brother gave up his company card and company cell phone, both of which were replaced the next day, as I understood it.

My iPhone would cost me $500 to replace. Credit cards I'm not worried about as they can be canceled, no biggie. Sure it's cheaper than a lawyer if one is even needed, but I'm not giving up 500+ bucks, sorry. I don't care if this is a public forum. I never said I'd shoot someone to protect my property or anything illegal. I'm just not in the business of giving my hard earned money away to every crack head POS who thinks I'm going to be an easy target.

Also, I'm not talking about shooting someone over property, I'm talking about justifiable deadly force against an armed robber. As a matter of principle no, you can't have my money. It's up to the BG to escalate by either displaying a weapon or informing me that he has one. At that point it's no longer about money it's about justified self defense.
 
derek said:
Even if your SA is high and keen the S can HTF quickly.
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I agree, But the OP didn't state if the BG had a hand in the pocket / bag. If you believed that some had a gun pionted at you with their finger on the trigger your really going to try and draw? If you didn't believe it then why shoot him?

ETA: I grabbed the wrong quote
 
derek said:
Even if your SA is high and keen the S can HTF quickly.
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Agreed, but that in and of itself is important and will trigger a different reaction than the bum on the street yelling "give me your cash or I'll kill you."

Or should I have shot the bum instead of just walking away watching him?

Every situation is different.
 
EddieCoyle said:
MUGGER: Give me your wallet. I have a gun.
ME: Does it look like this?
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[wink]
No, his not that nice, this may intimidate him which, under MA law is considered assault... [laugh]

Mike-Mike said:
All you people who said the safest and best way is to shoot the person should note that the OP's brother got out of this with the least amount of inconvenience by simply handing over the phone and cc.
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As has already been pointed out - compliance is no guarantee of success...

I've seen how well compliance works (or not) first hand... Sometimes you run into one or more people who are looking for "a bit of the ultra-violence" on any given day... Keep in mind that this situation requires that someone is behaving in a way that you don't really understand. This person is not you and does not think like you (or they wouldn't be doing it).

Any and everything you do during this engagement should be designed to increase your advantage, surprise, leverage, etc...

If you are handing them something, it is not to comply, but to manipulate their position, confirm the weapon if you feel you need to, get them off balance, get them closer (or further), disguise your other hand reaching for a weapon, move loved ones out of the line of fire, etc...

FWIW, the problem with "brandishing" (I hate that word) in response is the case that he isn't bluffing and had something pointed at you through a jacket at which point your only advantage is aim and reflex response time (100-200ms)...
 
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