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Vox accidentally admits most US gun deaths are suicides

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by calsdad, Sep 15, 2018.

  1. calsdad

    calsdad NES Member

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  2. rep308

    rep308 NES Member

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    Japan allows no private ownership of firearms and has a higher suicide rate so there goes that argument.
     
  3. drumenigma

    drumenigma NES Member

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  4. calsdad

    calsdad NES Member

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    So you take out suicides and you're apparently left with 15,000 deaths by guns in 2016.

    That's down from a total of 38,000 (-23k for suicide)

    Then you've got account for the fact that certain demographics extraordinarily outperform other demographics in the murder game.

    I don't have the time to go look up the exact numbers (the FBI tabulates this stuff and keeps track of it - so I know it's out there)

    But here's how the demographic factors in:

    https://nypost.com/2017/09/26/all-that-kneeling-ignores-the-real-cause-of-soaring-black-homicides/

    Nearly 900 additional blacks were killed in 2016 compared with 2015, bringing the black homicide victim total to 7,881. Those 7,881 “black bodies,” in the parlance of Ta-Nehisi Coates, are 1,305 more than the number of white victims (which in this case includes most Hispanics) for the same period, though blacks are only 13 percent of the nation’s population.


    The increase in black homicides last year comes on top of a previous 900-victim increase between 2014 and 2015.


    Who is killing these black victims? Not whites, and not the police, but other blacks.




    On the surface it appears that about half of all actual murders -were black people. And those murders are almost exclusively committed by black people.


    Given that the United States is armed to the teeth - that makes for an amazingly low murder rate - once you take away the suicides and the black murder demographic.
     
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  5. Bob P

    Bob P NES Member

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    I agree with you regarding the suicide. There are stacks of data supporting the idea that banning guns doesn’t change the suicide numbers in any meaningful way. They will find another way of doing it.

    Removing the ‘black’ numbers is bullshit. I get it. You don’t like black people. Tough shit. They live here and they’re citizens. The laws the antis are proposing will not do shit to reduce the gun murder rate in this country as the majority of them ARE gang related and aren’t buying their guns legally but that doesn’t mean you can ignore an entire demographic from your calculations. They’re homicides and it doesn’t matter what color the killer is. Gun control isn’t going to do shit but this ‘oh it’s black on black so it doesn’t matter’ is pure bullshit. They’re not going away so if there’s a problem it’s in all of our best interests to solve it.
     
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  6. calsdad

    calsdad NES Member

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    That's not the point at all. It's not about liking or not liking black people.

    It's about the exact point that the gun rights community has been making for as long as I've been paying any attention to gun rights: The problem isn't guns - it's human behavior. And since it's a human behavior issue then it's completely within the wheelhouse of the argument to point out that we've got a demographic within the country that completely over-reaches as far as how many murders they're responsible for.

    The fact of the matter is that it DOES matter what color the killer is.

    The lefties want to run around and yell stupid shit like "we're all equal!!" - and " all behavior is the same!!" - when it's simply not true. When you buy into THEIR argument - you also buy into the argument that the problem is the fact that the guns exist in the first place.

    Sorry - but I'm not buying it.

    You're correct - they are citizens. Guess what - so am I. If some of the citizens can't behave - that's not a reason to pull rights away from other citizens. This isn't second grade.

    Stop blaming the tool - and blame the people who are responsible. And the facts point squarely in the direction the people who are responsible in a out-sized number of cases - are black.

    That's a problem that can likely get fixed. But it will never get fixed by blaming guns - or saying the whites , or hispanics, or asians are *equally* responsible for the murder rate.


    Nobody wants to believe that different groups of people have different behaviors - especially given the amount of propagandizing the left has saturated the society with about "equality". Sorry - but they do.

    Believing otherwise is going to get your gun rights completely taken away. Maybe it's time to smarten the hell up.
     
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  7. mibro

    mibro NES Member

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    Insoluble problem is insoluble.

    In any case, I don't think deconstructing the statistics is bullshit and Calsdad is right, after removing suicides and a certain demographic from firearms deaths, the firearms homicide rate is very low.

    If you ever lose your 2A rights it will be because young black men won't stop killing each other.
     
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  8. Glockster30

    Glockster30 NES Member

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    The whole thread is very old news.
     
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  9. calsdad

    calsdad NES Member

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    And yet some people still don't get it.
     
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  10. jkelly1229

    jkelly1229

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    Lol yeah the remove the blacks argument is a tad racisss. What people should really do is focus on the crime rate in impoverished areas versus the crime rates in non impoverished areas. It's also the way the news reports it for whatever reason. Poor black and Hispanic crimes are usually only news worthy if it's drug/gang related while poor white crime is usually only news worthy when it's funny. Truth is there are a lot of places I don't want to go no matter what ethnicity dominates the region
     
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  11. headednorth

    headednorth NES Member

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    I saw an article somewhere which showed that if you separate black and white homicide rates, the rate for white America is in line with the safer Western European countries and the rate for black America was in line with your average African country.

    Also saw that if you took out I think 5 metropolitan areas (Memphis, St Louis, and a few others that dont come to mind right now.) that the murder rate in America falls in with W.Euro rates. So basically two different studies which were saying the same thing in different ways, more or less.

    America doesnt have a murder problem, there are a number of zip codes in a handful of large cities in America that have a murder problem.
     
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  12. PaulGee

    PaulGee

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    60% of gun deaths are attributed to suicides leaving 40%. Of that 40%, what percentage of gun deaths are attributable to gang warfare, drug turf wars, and even accidental shooting deaths? I believe gun deaths should be categorized rather than lumped together making it look worse than it actually is. But I highly doubt the anti-gun crowd and politicians would buy that as it would severely weaken their arguments.
     
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  13. headednorth

    headednorth NES Member

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    Forget just the 2A, if things are allowed to get bad enough, the whole BoR is on the table and the average person will beg for it to go away. The alibi for the GCA was Mob violence, cartels are just the new Mob. We,ve spent a couple of decades stomping through the Middle East and Africa (to a lesser extent). Plowed through their societies like a bulldozer and then invited whats left of them to come live here. ("Sorry about your cousin...and your brother, and dad, and kids, and that wedding party, and that other wedding party. No hard feelings right? Looking forward to your kids growing up next to my kids!")

    Young black men are just one part of the problem. Invite the 3rd world into your life and youll get the 3rd world life.
     
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  14. headednorth

    headednorth NES Member

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    Youve been conditioned to think that way.

    Whats the crime rate in a poor White town in Appalachia vs a poor Black neighborhood in (pick whatever large city you like)? Poor Asian hood vs poor black? Hows this- how do murder rates in poor white locales compare with working class or middle class black areas?
     
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  15. jkelly1229

    jkelly1229

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    Bad they are all bad lol.... Asians in San Fran in the 90's were f***in crazy. Lookup hop tsing tap boys


    Also I'm not strictly speaking murder here. Assault sexual assault property crime all fill in here too
     
  16. headednorth

    headednorth NES Member

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    I wouldnt want to live in any of them either. The point is youre trying to say it all comes down to economics and has little or nothing to do with race and thats just not true.
     
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  17. snax

    snax NES Member

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    You dont even have to go that far.
    Look at Lowell since the early 80's.
    Same with Lawrence.
    Most of the gang shit there is SE Asian and Dominican.
    I lived in Socal, near little Saigon, there were some pretty messed up places there.
    Go north to LA and you have Korea Town, Skid Row, East LA, and South Central.
    All ethnically different, all low on the socio-eco scale. All high crime/gang activity areas.
     
  18. 71montess

    71montess

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    It’s the culture you can’t deny the culture of inner city blacks is wack. But no , any truth is racis !
     
  19. Bob P

    Bob P NES Member

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    No where in my post have I blamed the tool and I went out of my way to state that banning ain’t gonna do shit. Likewise restrictions.

    No I can’t deny it at all. That’s a huge part of the problem, I agree. No question at all. But you can’t throw up your hands and say ‘it’s ok it’s just black on black crime’ or ‘its an inner city thing’. It’s everyones problem. Is part of it stopping the glorification of violence, thug life, drugs and the OG lifestyle in movies, music, TV etc? f*** yes. Have the Dems made it worse by sucking them off for votes? f*** yes. Is throwing money at it going to make it go away? No. Is ignoring it and letting them kill each other going to work? No. They’ve been doing that for 100 years and it hasn’t gotten any better. Is it illegals? No. It isn’t. You want to fix it? Get rid of the alternate economy of drug money. Make drugs Legal and you’ve cut off the source of funding for 99% of the illegal shit that goes on in those communities. You’ve created space in the prisons for the actual violent scumbags so you don’t have some a**h*** who commits assault sprung after a few months because of crowding while some guy is sitting in jail for growing weed for 5 years.
     
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  20. wahsben

    wahsben NES Life Member NES Member

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  21. VetteGirlMA

    VetteGirlMA NES Member

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    I've actually been to the suicide forest in Japan. Just about every other tree has a ribbon indicating a suicide. There's a few places that are roped off with ribbons to indicate multiple suicides.
     
  22. Mass-diver

    Mass-diver NES Member

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    suicides and gang bangers, but you can’t say that, you have to say it’s law abiding citizens and the gun industry
     
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  23. GoodWillHunting

    GoodWillHunting NES Member

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    What happened to that dude's shirt?
     
  24. ridleyman

    ridleyman NES Member

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    Subtract suicides, gang violence, and intimate homicide, and your chances of being killed, even with tragic, yet statistically remote, mass shootings, are slight!
     
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  25. jah-luv

    jah-luv

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    The use of selective statistics is amazing on the pro gun side as well I see. The statistic about 90% of Blacks kill Blacks is often touted to somehow have an indictment on all Blacks and to minimize the multiple factors contributing to their lives. For instance, it ha been shown that it is only about 1% of the population of Blacks committing these crimes, terrorizing their own communities. It is not a Black people thing, it is 1% of Blacks_ 99% of the population should be educated about guns and maybe the conversations would change. Approximately 90% of Whites are killed by Whites, approximately 90% of Asians are killed by Asians. The only group where this is not so is women, who are killed by men(regardless of race or ethnicity) at a much higher rate than by women. Men account for 96% of perpetrators of homicide worldwide and 79% of victims. Yet we never extrapolate that to say maleness is a group that should be denied anything.
    Whites account for 59% of all mass shootings compared to 17% Black. Understand statistics and how to accurately portray them without using them to support an underlying agenda. We accuse the anti gun side of doing this all the time.
     
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  26. Fixxah

    Fixxah NES Member

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    We will miss you.
     
  27. headednorth

    headednorth NES Member

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    So Whites are slightly under-represented by mass shooters and Blacks are over-represented? Gotcha, thanks.
     
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  28. jah-luv

    jah-luv

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    If that is all you got from my post then you have proved my point-Gotcha, thanks
     
  29. drgrant

    drgrant Moderator NES Member

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    It would be fun to have a stat which removed all suicides and "pure mutual combat." EG, two criminals shooting at each other or cops shooting armed persons who already had violent felonies on record.

    -Mike
     
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  30. calsdad

    calsdad NES Member

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    Excellent video by Whittle.

    I especially like the comparisons between countries - both the ones with the highest murder rates, and the ones with the lowest. His example of Plano Texas as the location with the lowest murder rate is interesting - especially because you can see which countries he compares it against in regards to the murder rate, then see the countries that Detroit gets compared to for a murder rate - and very clearly see exactly a very distinct difference. Which he summarizes at the end with his comment about " the people holding the guns" - that are the problem.

    Go look up the demographics for Plano Texas - and then compare against any of the murder pit cities in the US that he talked about.
     
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