Vox accidentally admits most US gun deaths are suicides

[calsdad]

The use of selective statistics is amazing on the pro gun side as well I see. The statistic about 90% of Blacks kill Blacks is often touted to somehow have an indictment on all Blacks and to minimize the multiple factors contributing to their lives. For instance, it ha been shown that it is only about 1% of the population of Blacks committing these crimes, terrorizing their own communities. It is not a Black people thing, it is 1% of Blacks_ 99% of the population should be educated about guns and maybe the conversations would change. Approximately 90% of Whites are killed by Whites, approximately 90% of Asians are killed by Asians. The only group where this is not so is women, who are killed by men(regardless of race or ethnicity) at a much higher rate than by women. Men account for 96% of perpetrators of homicide worldwide and 79% of victims. Yet we never extrapolate that to say maleness is a group that should be denied anything.
Whites account for 59% of all mass shootings compared to 17% Black. Understand statistics and how to accurately portray them without using them to support an underlying agenda. We accuse the anti gun side of doing this all the time.

I haven't looked up the stats - but let's go with your example that 1% of the black population is committing these crimes - terrorizing their own communities as you put it ( I don't know about the 1% number - but I do know that most black murders are murders of other black people)

Where is the outcry from the "black community" - to do something about it? Sorry - but my perception is that the "black community" rallies around it's own killers - and basically protects them. Black tribal solidarity is more important - than solving crimes in their own community. I know there's a shitload of bitching about "racism" - because blacks don't like getting policed by white people. But then you've MULTIPLE examples of cities where the black community is in charge (black politicians, black cops, black mayor, black majority population) - and the problem STILL does not get solved. In fact it GETS WORSE.

There's plenty of evidence for this tribal solidarity - including the bitching coming out of black leaders whenever some black guy murders a white person, and all the white people want the guy fried.

If 1% of the white population was committing murders at the same rate that 1% of the black population is committing - then you know goddam well that "white society" would be looking for heads to cut off and those white murderers would be frying in the electric chair.

Show me on the doll where the same dynamic exists in the black community.

So you see - no matter which way you cut the deck - the cards still come out indicating that there's a "black problem".

 

[calsdad]

Lol yeah the remove the blacks argument is a tad racisss. What people should really do is focus on the crime rate in impoverished areas versus the crime rates in non impoverished areas. It's also the way the news reports it for whatever reason. Poor black and Hispanic crimes are usually only news worthy if it's drug/gang related while poor white crime is usually only news worthy when it's funny. Truth is there are a lot of places I don't want to go no matter what ethnicity dominates the region

Go research the stats on murders between impoverished black areas, hispanic areas, and white areas.

There are distinct differences.

 

[mibro]

It is not a Black people thing, it is 1% of Blacks.

I do take your point and if I were a law-abiding African American I would be pretty pissed at the 1% (if that's what the number is.)

Unfortunately you can't really do statistical analysis the way you suggest as you're using a self-referential definition for your statistical outcomes that divides African Americans into two groups. i.e. what is the probability that an African American who is not a criminal will be a criminal?....and what is the probability that an African American who is a criminal will be a criminal?

Without too much scrutiny this appears to make sense and Tim Wise would approve but as there is no way to separate criminal/not criminal by appearance for the purpose of statistical analysis it is not very helpful.

If I were a statistician I would be able to tell you exactly what this type of error is called but I am not and so I can not.

I would love to have this statistical approach applied to white people too, btw and some people do but many don't.

Racism is not a white people thing, it is only 0.01% of whites. (Glad we cleared that up, now Antifa go home.)

Slavery was not a white people thing, it was only 0.1% of whites. (Awesome, I'm off the hook for reparations.)

Police brutality is not a police thing, it is only 0.01% of LEOs.

etc.

This is quite a nice world to live in actually as collectively no-one is responsible for anything. There's no white privilege, no wealth disparity, no disparate outcomes. Yeah, I like it.

 

[calsdad]

It would be fun to have a stat which removed all suicides and "pure mutual combat." EG, two criminals shooting at each other or cops shooting armed persons who already had violent felonies on record.

-Mike

Yes - that would be fun.

My overall point in this thread is that the "stats" that the lefties use to justify their gun ban efforts are usually just a case of selective interpretation of the statistics.

So the left has now admitted that you can just remove a huge portion of the claimed "gun deaths" from the stats THEY use to justify taking guns away - because they're suicides. And you can furthermore use the suicide stats to show that using a gun as a means of suicide is just a matter of convenience. If somebody wants to kill themselves - they'll just find another way if the guns are removed. Since you can't make the entire world live in a padded cell - you simply can't remove EVERYTHING that a person might use to kill themselves with - it's a futile effort.

My personal opinion on the suicide issue is that if you REALLY want to dig into it - you've got to start asking WHY there's so many people killing themselves. Really sitting down and asking some hard questions about that - points a pretty big finger right back at the end result of the "society" that the progressive lefties have created - because apparently there's a crapload of people who are living in it who feel like it sucks so bad they want to off themselves just to get the hell out.

So once you remove the suicide numbers from the overall gun deaths number - you're left with all the rest of them. Which - as you point out - includes shit like two criminals shooting each other or might include cops shooting armed persons who had already committed violent crimes. I don't think cop shootings deserve to just be blanket- included into MURDER stats. So those also should be removed.

Somewhere in the distant past I do remember reading an article that compared the number of murders committed by an AR-15 - with those committed by other methods. If I remember correctly the number of murders committed by AR-15s , was less than those committed with ROCKS or baseball bats.

My point of bringing up the murders committed by blacks issue - is that (once again) - the stats point to the murder problem NOT being a gun issue. The issue lies somewhere else. It lies in race , or culture - or something else. But it IS NOT guns. The Bill Whittle video posted by Wahsben has some good visuals on this. He compares all the murder cities in the US - with countries across the world that have similar murder rates. Then he compares Plano Texas - the city with the lowest murder rate apparently - with countries that have similarly low murder rates. There's a definite correlation there - if you look at the country names and associate them with where they are - and who lives there.

Some of the whiners are going to start screaming racism. Guess what - I don't give a shit. I personally think people CAN change. You CAN overcome your breeding and your mental programming IF YOU CHOOSE TO. But far too often people CHOOSE to just excuse away shitty behavior as the results of their genes or their environment or whatever.

When it comes down to efforts by lefties or government in general to take away my rights to own a firearm - and therefore my basic right of self defense (we all know where the path leads - take away guns, then take away knives - then take away all rights to defend your own body) - my personal opinion is that once you start traveling down that road - then EVERYTHING gets put on the table.

If you're going to try and lump in suicides as murders and try to pump up the numbers to justify gun bans - then that shit is going to get talked about.

If you're going to try and lump in murders committed by certain racial groups - when the racial group that I belong to DOES NOT HAVE THOSE NUMBERS - then that shit is going to get talked about.

You don't want that to happen? Well then stop f***ing doing it then.

If you want to start whining about racism - then I'm going to bring up the fact that OTHER racial groups - like Chinese - don't have the same issues. I'll also bring up the fact that poor white trailer trash don't run the murder numbers up either. Even the Hispanics don't run the numbers up the way inner city blacks do.

Repeat again for emphasis: Try to take away my gun rights using bullshit statistics and I'm going to investigate those statistics - and then start bringing ALL of the very inconvenient facts those statistics highlight.


Don't like that - well then STFU about it and go fix the real problems.

 

[wahsben]

There is a lot of good information here:

Gun Facts | Gun Control Facts Concerning Assault Weapons

Somewhere in the distant past I do remember reading an article that compared the number of murders committed by an AR-15 - with those committed by other methods. If I remember correctly the number of murders committed by AR-15s , was less than those committed with ROCKS or baseball bats.

 

[calsdad]

There is a lot of good information here:

Gun Facts | Gun Control Facts Concerning Assault Weapons

This guy has a pretty good summary of the overall issue:




"The bulk of our violent crime is in small pockets in large metropolitan areas"

 

[calsdad]

A little bit of Crowder drama - but still breaks apart the way the stats are manipulated by certain groups and the media to fit their agenda:

 

[wahsben]

Calsdad good video. He mentions something that I read in this book https://www.amazon.com/Four-Hundred...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214848883&sr=8-1 many years ago. He mentions that cities over 250,000 are where the biggest problems lie.

 

[calsdad]

The use of selective statistics is amazing on the pro gun side as well I see. The statistic about 90% of Blacks kill Blacks is often touted to somehow have an indictment on all Blacks and to minimize the multiple factors contributing to their lives. For instance, it ha been shown that it is only about 1% of the population of Blacks committing these crimes, terrorizing their own communities. It is not a Black people thing, it is 1% of Blacks_ 99% of the population should be educated about guns and maybe the conversations would change. Approximately 90% of Whites are killed by Whites, approximately 90% of Asians are killed by Asians. The only group where this is not so is women, who are killed by men(regardless of race or ethnicity) at a much higher rate than by women. Men account for 96% of perpetrators of homicide worldwide and 79% of victims. Yet we never extrapolate that to say maleness is a group that should be denied anything.
Whites account for 59% of all mass shootings compared to 17% Black. Understand statistics and how to accurately portray them without using them to support an underlying agenda. We accuse the anti gun side of doing this all the time.

Here's a good retort to your 1% claim:

Buchanan: Badthink In Clearspeak Re Wogflood

socabill | September 16, 2018 at 09:38 | Reply

According to the 2016 FBI UCR Statistics 13% of the American populace (the negros) were responsible for 52.6% of murders and 54.5% of robberies. Cut that 13% in half to exclude the women. That’s 6 1/2%. Now cut in half again to exclude those below 10 yrs old and above 50. Now it’s ~3% doing over 50% of those crimes.




Another piece of the puzzle - which you alluded to but seem to have very carefully left out - is the black on white murder stats vs. the white on black murders stats.

So let's look at some numbers:

White On Black Crime vs. Black On White Crime: New Statistics Show More Killings Between Races

Interracial homicides have reached levels not seen since president Barack Obama first took office, when rates began a period of steady decline, according to the latest statistics from the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Most notably, white-on-black killings spiked by 22.5 percent between 2014 and 2015 after years of mostly trending downward. Killings of whites by African Americans increased by 12.2 percent, while black-on-black and white-on-white killings increased only slightly—by just 7.9 percent and 3.5 percent, respectively—between 2014 and 2015, after mostly falling since 2008. Overall, more than twice as many black-on-white homicides occurred compared with white-on-black homicides.

To be sure, homicides in which the offender and victim were of the same race have vastly outnumbered interracial homicides for the past ten years. FBI data show that while 500 black-on-white killings and 229 white-on-black killings were reported in 2015, 2,574 homicides were committed by whites against other whites, and 2,380 by blacks against blacks.


Some numbers (from here: Homicides By Year) :

500 black on white murders in 2015

229 white on black murders in 2015

Blacks make up something like 13% of the population. Whites are somewhere in the 63% range.

So once again we've an example of where blacks are total out-performers in the murder game when you compare the actual statistics. The black on white murder rate is more than double the white on black rate. And this is starting from a population base that is ~1/5 that of the white population.


Then there's black on Asian violence - which I can't seem to find any real stats on , but I would be willing to bet is even more lopsided towards blacks committing far more crime against Asians - than Asians commit against blacks.


------------------


https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/nevi...of-black-on-Asian-violence-is-out-3265760.php

San Francisco's hidden truth is out. That's what community organizer Carol Mo calls the realization that Asian residents are being targeted for robberies, burglaries and intimidation by young black men.


"It is San Francisco's dirty little secret," said Mo, a former Safety Network Community organizer in the Sunset District. "It's not news to us."


Hundreds of people marched into Tuesday's Board of Supervisors meeting to express their fear, frustration and outrage. But so far the response has been disappointing, particularly from the San Francisco Police Department. It seems intent on downplaying the role of race and its impact in the community.


The recent incidents of black violence against Asians is the perfect opportunity to open a dialogue about racism. Instead, they are attempting to close the door.



City officials, including the Police Department, say these assaults are part of a larger crime picture where gangs of kids take advantage of a vulnerable group of small stature. But Mo participated in a 2008 survey by the Police Department in which about 300 strong-arm robberies were analyzed. "In 85 percent of the physical assault crimes, the victims were Asian and the perpetrators were African American," she said

-------------------



Even in San Francisco - where you've got liberal retardation running rampant - you start to get some actual truth once you take white people out of the picture because that way nobody can start screaming "racism" - since you've got an issue between groups typically called "minorities" in the overall left wing dialectic. And the picture you get - is that blacks are committing 85 freaking percent of the physical assault crimes against Asians.

Just so there is a proper reference point - I went and looked up the demographics for San Francisco - and came up with this:

San Francisco Demographics

• 
  
  
  • White: 53.6% (non-Hispanic: 41%)
  • Asian: 35.3%
  • African Americans: 6.1%
  • Native Americans: 0.8%
  • Pacific Islanders: 0.5%
  • Other: 6.6%
  • Two or more: 4.2%
  • Hispanic or Latino of any race: 15.3%

So you've got blacks as 6.1% of the city's population (about half of their overall national percentage) - committing 85 freaking percent of the physical assault crimes against Asians.

So - once again - we've got clear evidence that the "black community" is an out-performer in regards to their crime rates.



Seems like a pretty big problem.

One that doesn't involve my safe full of "assault weapons" in any way, shape - or form.


The finger of blame NEEDS TO be pointed towards the place that DESERVES THE BLAME.



Tough shit if you don't like inconvenient facts. IDGAF

 

[Buck F]

Japan allows no private ownership of firearms and has a higher suicide rate so there goes that argument.

Same goes for Belgium, Sweden, Finland, Russia and 43 other countries.

 

[headednorth]

According to the 2016 FBI UCR Statistics 13% of the American populace (the negros) were responsible for 52.6% of murders and 54.5% of robberies. Cut that 13% in half to exclude the women. That’s 6 1/2%. Now cut in half again to exclude those below 10 yrs old and above 50. Now it’s ~3% doing over 50% of those crimes.

Take the percentage that are in prison at any given time out of that already tiny 3% and the percentage gets even smaller.

 

[KBCraig]

A little bit of Crowder drama - but still breaks apart the way the stats are manipulated by certain groups and the media to fit their agenda:

I'm not generally a fan, because "louder" doesn't equal "correct". And while he does rightly call out the Vox article for manipulating data, he also engages in briefly flashing highlighted words on printed documents with zero context.

But, he's correct overall.

He seemed uncertain about the Luby's shooting, so I'm happy to clear that up: in 1991, the entire state of Texas was a gun-free zone, at least when it comes to self defense with a handgun outside your own home. While Suzanna Gratia Hupp famously testified that she left her handgun in her car, even that was illegal in Texas at the time.

 

[wahsben]

He seemed uncertain about the Luby's shooting, so I'm happy to clear that up: in 1991, the entire state of Texas was a gun-free zone, at least when it comes to self defense with a handgun outside your own home. While Suzanna Gratia Hupp famously testified that she left her handgun in her car, even that was illegal in Texas at the time.

She was instrumental in getting the laws changed: Suzanna Hupp - Wikipedia

 

[KBCraig]

She was instrumental in getting the laws changed: Suzanna Hupp - Wikipedia

I'm well aware, having resided in Texas from 1989-2012 and being very involved in the handgun carry movement.

She wasn't in the lege when the law actually passed, but her dress-down of Charles Schumer is legendary.

 

[calsdad]

I'm well aware, having resided in Texas from 1989-2012 and being very involved in the handgun carry movement.

She wasn't in the lege when the law actually passed, but her dress-down of Charles Schumer is legendary.

 

[wahsben]

I'm well aware, having resided in Texas from 1989-2012 and being very involved in the handgun carry movement.

She wasn't in the lege when the law actually passed, but her dress-down of Charles Schumer is legendary.

I posted it for everyone. I just quoted your post since you mentioned her and I see calsdad has posted a well known video of her letting the legislature know where she stands.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

60% of gun deaths are attributed to suicides leaving 40%. Of that 40%, what percentage of gun deaths are attributable to gang warfare, drug turf wars, and even accidental shooting deaths? I believe gun deaths should be categorized rather than lumped together making it look worse than it actually is. But I highly doubt the anti-gun crowd and politicians would buy that as it would severely weaken their arguments.

Some of the reports count righteous kills of felons by police as part of the "gun death" problem.

 

[mibro]

Some of the reports count righteous kills of felons by police as part of the "gun death" problem.

Zombie thread made it almost a whole year before rising from the dead.

 

[beaker]

The use of selective statistics is amazing on the pro gun side as well I see. The statistic about 90% of Blacks kill Blacks is often touted to somehow have an indictment on all Blacks and to minimize the multiple factors contributing to their lives. For instance, it ha been shown that it is only about 1% of the population of Blacks committing these crimes, terrorizing their own communities. It is not a Black people thing, it is 1% of Blacks_ 99% of the population should be educated about guns and maybe the conversations would change. Approximately 90% of Whites are killed by Whites, approximately 90% of Asians are killed by Asians. The only group where this is not so is women, who are killed by men(regardless of race or ethnicity) at a much higher rate than by women. Men account for 96% of perpetrators of homicide worldwide and 79% of victims. Yet we never extrapolate that to say maleness is a group that should be denied anything.
Whites account for 59% of all mass shootings compared to 17% Black. Understand statistics and how to accurately portray them without using them to support an underlying agenda. We accuse the anti gun side of doing this all the time.

I find your post comically ironical.

 

[calsdad]

Zombie thread made it almost a whole year before rising from the dead.

Worth resurrecting since the lefties are going full bore anti gun right now.

People on our side really need to get their heads straight on the bullshit and lies that are being spread out there. I've seen far too many "pro-gun" people who simply buckle under the onslaught of BS that is pushed by the anti-gun left.

It's unfortunate I guess - but opening up your head to the truth means you must accept some things that truly run against the grain of what pretty much all of the left - and a good part of the right wing political sphere wants you to believe.

One of those inconvenient truths is that if we suddenly decided to go all Lincoln on the situation and gather up all the blacks in this country and send them back to Africa - we'd suddenly have a crime and murder rate that would be BELOW that of pretty much all of the European countries that the lefties like to go on and on and on about as examples of how this country should be in regards to crime rates.

My general attitude towards pretty much everything is: if you're unwilling to actually discuss REAL solutions to a problem - I'm not going to take you seriously AT ALL. If you want to have a "discussion" and your interpretation of that discussion is to pull all sorts of crazy arguments out of your butt and just use that as a way of attacking something you PERCEIVE to be the problem - when none of the facts support you , then I'm just going to use that "discussion" as an avenue to insult you and belittle everything you say.

Because that is what you deserve.

The anti-gun crowd deserves this kind of treatment IMHO. Because they utterly refuse to address FACTS. The whole climate change crowd deserves the same kind of treatment. As do the feminists.

Rob Boudrie is correct - "gun deaths" stats have included righteous kills of felons in the past. Which just obfuscates the facts (once again)

 

[calsdad]

Here's a really good example of the depths of lying that the left in general engage in - and specifically the NY Times - which is pretty much all anti gun all the time:

ANN COULTER: Why the New York Times is unreformable and must die

You really need to read the whole article - but the gist of it is that the NY Times put out an article about some run of the mill arrest of a black guy for a drive by shooting - and the NY Times can't even see their way to publish the truth about that. They've got to manipulate the story to make it seem like he was being unfairly prosecuted - and convicted - even though black people helped convict him. The take-away here is that the left just LIES ABOUT EVERYTHING. And this story is relevant to the topic of this thread - because of instead of the story being portrayed as another case of a black guy doing a shooting - it's getting cast as a story of white persecution and racism - and it goes down as another tick mark in the column of "gun violence" - instead of black violence.

There’s no reason to think this isn’t standard operating procedure at the Times. The editors can’t say, OK, OK, that one got past us!

The Times has told wild lies about the racist shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri (false), the racist arrest of Freddie Grey in Baltimore (false), the racist shooting of Trayvon Martin in Florida (false), the racist gang-rape of a black stripper by a Duke lacrosse team (false) and so on.

Antwon Rose’s shooting wasn’t even a flood-the-zone, hair-on-fire story. But the Times lied about it, too.

This is a newspaper that cannot be trusted on anything touching on race. They’re liars and ideologues, not reporters and editors


I really think pro-gun people need to read this stuff over and over and over again - until they get it dead set in their heads what they are up against.

 

[Squire]

God, the Gun Control Statists are such smug, self-righteous, rabidly intolerant a**h***s.

None of those statistics matter. Gun Control is explicitly prohibited by "shall not be infringed". Amend the Constitution or leave the Armed Populace, the Fourth Branch of Government, alone.

 

[Bob P]

So according to the US census 12.6% of the population of the US is black with another 3% as biracial. So according to you if we eliminate 15% of the population our murder problem goes away. Couple of problems with that: 1) that’s about 40 million people - about the population of Canada. What are you gonna do with them? That’s one hell of a Endlösung. 2) No on gives a shit about black on black crime. Barely anyone gives a shit about black on white crime. What is driving gun control right now is mass shootings which are a) rare as f*** and b) a white thing. Anyone who believes that somehow removing the black statistics from the issue will make things go away is kidding themselves.

 

[wahsben]

Here's a functional link to the whittle video that wahsben posted


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE

You read my mind jpk. I was just getting ready to post it. It's certainly one of the best if not the best explanations on what the real situation is. Thank you for posting it!

 

[Deleted member 12999]

Man... some people really miss the point here.

I'm too tired to go quote you all, and Calsdad is quite capable of pointing out the nonsense.

 

[bigben111435]

BU school of medicine: average suicide by firerarm is a white married male over 50 with some physical health issues... haha gee i wonder what that guy is upset about?

2017 numbers are strikingly similar to the 2016 numbers 23k + suicides 38K overall deaths

Either way, suicide is a suicide problem not a firearms problem.

 

[Bob P]

Mass shootings aren't a white thing. The mass shootings that get trotted out by the media are the white and Asian ones.

Mass shootings aren't a white thing. The mass shootings that get trotted out by the media are the white and Asian ones.

Making my point that mass shootings are a white thing. Ie: gun control in 2019 is being driven by fear that the media is whipping up that Mr and Mrs White America’s little child is going to get gunned down in a mass shooting. All this ‘it’s not a white thing’ is absolutely irrelevant. Mainstream America only cares about 1 thing right now and that’s ‘mass shootings’. AND the only mass shootings they care about are ones where white people are getting killed. The media tells them that getting rid of assault weapons (their term not mine) will make them safe. That is literally all they care about. Anything that doesn’t address that is irrelevant to the debate at hand. Once that pool of scared idiots reaches critical mass we’re going to see stupid shit. Period.

 

[Bob P]

The problem is the media whipping up fear. These attacks are rare and impact a small number of people. This is like the current hysteria being generated around vaping due to 3 recent deaths. 3 deaths in a country of 300+million is nothing. Most people can't really understand numbers or statistics so it is easy to get them riled up over nothing.

As someone earlier posted, rifles are a small fraction of murders overall, and "assault weapons" are a fraction of that. Our schools and media are teaching people to be scared, and that cowardice is going to lead to great suffering

All true. It’s an entirely manufactured crisis but that argument isn’t going to change anyone’s mind

 

[JNewell]

Pointing out that gun-related suicides are far more numerous than homicides is really not a benign result, though. There is a growing movement to treat guns as a public health threat. How that interacts with the 2nd Amendment has not been worked out yet.

 

[JNewell]

Statistically speaking they dont have a leg to stand on when over 250k die due to medical malpractice

Something similar die in MV accidents

They have a long list to work down before they can make any justification whatsoever to start discussing RKBA....especially when ~75% of deaths are suicide.....

I agree, and I didn't mean to be making that sort of argument.