Never felt undergunned, until now........

Climbnsink said:
Has a civilian ever lost a defensive fight due to running out of ammo? If you really want to be prepared carry one reload and a second gun with one reload. That makes more sense than 40+ rounds for one handgun. Remember all you have to do is break contact and survive, not conquer Mogadishu.

From the ground with a handgun you are going to shoot at an open window on a large building? I'm willing to accept the official story for sake of discussion, Mr. Paddock was firing from the 32nd floor, that is over 300' from the ground, can you hit a widow 300' up and probably at least double that in distance?
Click to expand...


This is NES, lol. Convert feet to inches and the answer would be "maybe."
 
Climbnsink said:
Has a civilian ever lost a defensive fight due to running out of ammo? If you really want to be prepared carry one reload and a second gun with one reload. That makes more sense than 40+ rounds for one handgun. Remember all you have to do is break contact and survive, not conquer Mogadishu.
Click to expand...
I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. I certainly don't want to argue, as you are a long time respected member of the forum, but I would like to answer your direct questions if I may. "Has a civilian ever lost a defensive fight due to running out of ammo?"

Of course they have! But how would anyone ever know? How would it be reported? When a drug ring shoots up a rival, they just find the bodies. You are not going to read that three guys with empty revolvers were found dead in a pile of spent brass. And didn't John Derringer return fire until empty before being mowed down? I am sure there are many examples that never get reported.
And not really relevant, but I have been to Mogadishu. We should have nuked it.

Climbnsink said:
From the ground with a handgun you are going to shoot at an open window on a large building? I'm willing to accept the official story for sake of discussion, Mr. Paddock was firing from the 32nd floor, that is over 300' from the ground, can you hit a widow 300' up and probably at least double that in distance?
Click to expand...
That window was 10' tall and 4' wide. ( approximately). Not a residential double hung window. Yes. I could hit that target at 100 yards with every single round, and you could too. I regularly ring steel at 100 yards, with a handgun, at my range and that target is much smaller. My son has been doing it every range trip since he was 10.
I could get rounds through that window at double the range. Easily. I don't debate that it is unlikely to score hits, but I am just looking to stop him shooting in my general direction for a few seconds.

We also have a difference of opinion about back up guns. I believe the only reason to carry a BUG is if you think it possible you may be disarmed or forced to surrender your primary. If I am going to carry it, I am confident it will not fail, and I can shoot it very well. I can reload faster than I can draw from my ankle, and I can score hits at greater distances with a bigger gun than with my PM9.

I mean no disrespect, and again as a senior member of this forum, I do respect your opinion, even though mine might be different. I am sure that when you carry you do so with confidence based upon your knowledge and experience, I do the same.
This afternoon, I am taking the whole family into the city to celebrate my youngest daughter's 17th birthday. We will be going to my oldest daughters apartment in Charlestown and then to the North End for dinner. It will be the first time in over a year I have spent any time in the city, and many years since my whole family has been with me in the city. I am carrying a Sig 229 in .40 cal in a shoulder holster with two spare pre bans under my right arm and another in my back pocket.
That is a total of 49 rounds of 165 grain 40 cal Speer Gold Dot, in a gun that has never failed and is well maintained. Maybe it's overkill, but I can live with that. If BPD decides to shoot an unarmed black kid at city hall plaza today, I plan on getting all our white asses home to the boonies.
My wife will also have her 642 and a couple of speed loaders with her. We will peacefully and quietly enjoy our meal and our time together. As long as they don't f*** up my wife's shrimp scampi. Then all bets are off. ;)
 
[
nordic alien said:
.... i riot situation you plug the one with the biggest mouth and the rest scatter
Click to expand...

In a riot situation I’m getting the hell out of there as fast as possible. Even better, don’t go anywhere near a riot or multiple assailant situation. I’m not risking my life to protect someone else’s property. Even if armed to the teeth your chances of survival are greatly diminished.
 
JayMcB said:
Not much video of people running towards the sound of gunfire
Click to expand...
Based on the video footage I've bothered to watch:
Pasty white guys say, "Hark! What is that sound?"
Folks from the 'hood pivot on a dime, crouch, and GTFO.

Climbnsink said:
Has a civilian ever lost a defensive fight due to running out of ammo?
Click to expand...
I instantly thought of this story from seven years ago,
which was a close-run thing.

ABC Fake News: Georgia Mom Shoots Home Invader, Hiding With Her Children
By Robin Reese​
January 8, 2013, 5:00 PM​
...​
ATLANTA, Jan. 8, 2013 — -- A mother of two ... was working at home when a man began to ring the doorbell. She called her husband at work, who told her to gather their 9-year-old twins, a boy and a girl, and go hide. All three of them went to an upstairs crawl space, and Melinda brought along a .38 caliber handgun to the hiding place.​
...​
The man allegedly broke into the house and rummaged around before making his way to the crawl space, where he found the mother and children hiding.​
...​
Melinda Herman shot the intruder five times, hitting him in the face and neck. Chapman said she told the man if he moved she would shoot him again, although she had run out of bullets.​
​
"The guy is [heard] telling her to quit shooting," said Chapman.​

I'm completely willing to believe that more (far more?) defenses have failed from jams
than from running out of ammo. But I'd never say never.

And the reason why this topic has popped up this summer is because
this is The Summer of the Target-Rich Environment.

(I bet if we did a statistical boil-down of the NES forums,
we'd find that the euphemisms "zombie" and "goblin" have faded for the moment,
to be replaced by "antifa", "BLM", yadda³... In other words,
for the moment reality is coming at people, good and hard).
 
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I carry a Glock 19 in an IWB with an extra mag. Old S&W 37 in an ankle holster. Dual Ruger 357s in two shoulder holsters. Always have at least 500 extra rounds in the trunk along with 10 gallons of potable water, a hatchet, flares, fishing line, canned food, a tent, baseball glove and ball and level 3 Kevlar body armor and ballistic vest.
 
John2006 said:
I carry a Glock 19 in an IWB with an extra mag. Old S&W 37 in an ankle holster. Dual Ruger 357s in two shoulder holsters. Always have at least 500 extra rounds in the trunk along with 10 gallons of potable water, a hatchet, flares, fishing line, canned food, a tent, baseball glove and ball and level 3 Kevlar body armor and ballistic vest.
Click to expand...
Right on. There you guy, back up handguns and ammo, but you need a battle rifle in the car. And airsupport on comms.
 
Camhabib said:
Again, so what do you envision, the government being overthrown and you having to fight your way though? To what? Your house where you'll be magically safe? A crowd overwhelming you to the point where some extra rounds and guns will protect you, but not overwhelming you enough that you won't be able to defend yourself period? Some super trained assassin coming to kill you and you're just going to continue to out-ammo him? Like what are these scenarios that people have dreamed up.
Click to expand...

I've always been in the camp that carrying your own personal ammo depot is ridiculous. I've kept silent or politely disagreed when those who ascribe to 'mo is bettah' present their case. At times I've been 'less than polite' to those who claim you'll get your family killed etc. if you don't carry X number of rounds. Single, double, or small groups of assailants can be handled with normal carry probably 99.999% of the time; and the likelihood of running into a life or death situation is nil if you don't live in an extreme risk area and you have reasonable situational awareness.

What's happening today is different, 'normal' has shifted, and the likely threat scenario is vastly different. The probability of getting stuck in one of these leftist zombie fests is still low if you are paying attention and avoid hot spots- but it is still many, many more times likely than it was a year ago. If you are setting yourself up to quickly run out of ammo in a 'civil unrest' scenario- why carry more than one bullet? Maybe someone talking about carrying hundreds of rounds was joking a bit, but in the crazy world of 2020 it just seems prudent to at least have extra mags of decent capacity and perhaps some extra firepower too big to carry but perfectly portable in your vehicle.

If I lived in Boston, first I'd move. If for some reason I could not or simply did not want to move, I'd sure as hell be prepared to deal with getting stuck in a dangerous mob situation.
 
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Eh for me its all about location. I live in the dead quiet end of a fairly quiet town. Aside from work I barely leave the zip code. Not saying I'm immune to any of the jackassery going on but I'm more worried about being car jacked by some crack head that is jonesing for a fix than anything else right now. Glock 43 for me. All mags have the three round mag extenders. They're small enough to throw two extra in my pocket.
 
John2006 said:
I carry a Glock 19 in an IWB with an extra mag. Old S&W 37 in an ankle holster. Dual Ruger 357s in two shoulder holsters. Always have at least 500 extra rounds in the trunk along with 10 gallons of potable water, a hatchet, flares, fishing line, canned food, a tent, baseball glove and ball and level 3 Kevlar body armor and ballistic vest.
Click to expand...

10 gallons of water?

imightbelieveyou.jpg
 
Climbnsink said:
Good one. Police firefights are an offensive action, no? They are supposed to fight to the finish not just break contact and run away.
Click to expand...

A firefight between Watertown PD and the suspects ensued. While the shootout continued, additional officers from Watertown PD, as well as officers from BPD, Cambridge PD, Transit PD, MSP and nearby communities responded to the scene.43 Over 200 rounds were fired between the two sides. During the firefight, the first suspect was shot as he stood outside the SUV. When he ran out of ammunition, he charged at a Watertown PD officer who was approaching the suspects from behind a residence. This officer tackled the suspect to the ground, and a second Watertown PD officer joined in to assist the officer and attempt to get the suspect in handcuffs. The second suspect entered the SUV and drove directly toward the officers struggling with the first suspect on the ground. The officers were barely able to roll out of the way of the oncoming vehicle; however, the first suspect was not able to get out of the way and was struck and dragged a short distance as the vehicle continued driving down the street. The first suspect was taken into custody and transported by Boston EMS ambulance to Beth Israel Deaconess Hospital.44 The second suspect ultimately drove out of the area, while being shot at by the numerous law enforcement officers lining the streets. The multitude of police vehicles parked in the roadway delayed the pursuit of the second suspect, and he was able to make it approximately one-half mile down the road before abandoning the vehicle on Spruce Street and fleeing on foot.
 
Mountain said:
I've always been in the camp that carrying your own personal ammo depot is ridiculous. I've kept silent or politely disagreed when those who ascribe to 'mo is bettah' present their case. At times I've been 'less than polite' to those who claim you'll get your family killed etc. if you don't carry X number of rounds. Single, double, or small groups of assailants can be handled with normal carry probably 99.999% of the time; and the likelihood of running into a life or death situation is nil if you don't live in an extreme risk area and you have reasonable situational awareness.

What's happening today is different, 'normal' has shifted, and the likely threat scenario is vastly different. The probability of getting stuck in one of these leftist zombie fests is still low if you are paying attention and avoid hot spots- but it is still many, many more times likely than it was a year ago. If you are setting yourself up to quickly run out of ammo in a 'civil unrest' scenario- why carry more than one bullet? Maybe someone talking about carrying hundreds of rounds was joking a bit, but in the crazy world of 2020 it just seems prudent to at least have extra mags of decent capacity and perhaps some extra firepower too big to carry but perfectly portable in your vehicle.

If I lived in Boston, first I'd move. If for some reason I could not or simply did not want to move, I'd sure as hell be prepared to deal with getting stuck in a dangerous mob situation.
Click to expand...

I think what's lost in a lot of these replies is the basic fact "you have to get home (or wherever you're bugging out to)". I, for one, would not want to rely on just 10 rounds (or a single mag) or so to do that. In this new 'normal', as you described, you may have several trouble spots to navigate... Why not be prudent ?
 
10thSFFD said:
A firefight between Watertown PD and the suspects ensued. While the shootout continued, additional officers from Watertown PD, as well as officers from BPD, Cambridge PD, Transit PD, MSP and nearby communities responded to the scene.43 Over 200 rounds were fired between the two sides. During the firefight, the first suspect was shot as he stood outside the SUV. When he ran out of ammunition, he charged at a Watertown PD officer who was approaching the suspects from behind a residence. This officer tackled the suspect to the ground, and a second Watertown PD officer joined in to assist the officer and attempt to get the suspect in handcuffs. The second suspect entered the SUV and drove directly toward the officers struggling with the first suspect on the ground. The officers were barely able to roll out of the way of the oncoming vehicle; however, the first suspect was not able to get out of the way and was struck and dragged a short distance as the vehicle continued driving down the street. The first suspect was taken into custody and transported by Boston EMS ambulance to Beth Israel Deaconess Hospital.44 The second suspect ultimately drove out of the area, while being shot at by the numerous law enforcement officers lining the streets. The multitude of police vehicles parked in the roadway delayed the pursuit of the second suspect, and he was able to make it approximately one-half mile down the road before abandoning the vehicle on Spruce Street and fleeing on foot.
Click to expand...
OK if you are going to engage the police in a firefight you need more ammo. Or the ability to shoot. Or a rifle, whoever had a rifle and a little discipline should have won promptly. There is so much shady crap with the Boston appliance malfunction I almost wonder if they were shooting blanks at each other.
I will change my opinion to load out what makes you happy, and in times of trouble don't stray too far from a rifle.
 

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