A couple random ?'s

[ceo012384]

I'm still relatively new here and trying to wrap my head around a lot of the laws. I'm currently in the waiting period to get my LTC which should come about a month from today.

There are some things I've searched on and haven't been able to find, and some that probably have been covered and for that I apologize. Here are some Q's I have in no particular order... your patience is appreciated in advance.

Can someone please direct me to the ferrari thread that people seem to keep mentioning?

Why are pre-98 glocks such a big deal here as opposed ot any other pre-98 gun that is now not MA compliant? Just because they are so numerous and popular? Are post-98 glocks any different? The markup is preposterous and IMHO I would only purchase one if I could find one with the right serial number online via one of the auction sites and get it for a fair market price and sent here...

Is there any way to buy a gun from somewhere else and have it not come through an FFL? (i.e. gunbroker or online auction for example, or a private FTF sale in another state or with an out-of-state resident in MA) If so, why do so many places say that FFL transfer is required?

I found this on a police station website in MA, which indicates that an FFL is not required... but I have seen otherwise many times on this forum:

M.G.L. c. 140, §128B, residents who purchase from someone other than a Massachusetts dealer, either within or outside the Commonwealth, must report the purchase within seven days to the FRB. The FA10 form, which can be obtained from any police department, is the simplest way to make such a report.

Along the same lines, can I drive to NH/VT and buy a gun that is on both MA lists and bring it back here and mail in an FA-10?

Are all guns that are sold in MA models specific to MA? I.e. is a Sig at 4 seasons the same as a sig at other stores around the country? If not, is it illegal for someone to sell me one of those guns if they are not a MA resident who brought it here legally? If I bought one and had it sent to an FFL they wouldn't sell it to me and I'd have a gun in limbo?

Along those same lines, If all new MA guns are supposed to be MA tested and manufacturers often make the guns 'different' to pass the regs (trigger lbs for example)... but if I bought a MA gun I am allowed to modify said trigger after I purchase it... how is that different from just buying a NH or CT gun with a non-MA trigger and saying I modified it myself after bringing it back here? Could there be any repercussions? Just typing this it doesn't sound smart but I figured I would ask

Lastly, after I get my LTC I intend to apply for my C&R FFL. I have skimmed the thread about it and it seems fairly straightforward except for a couple details. Basically the main requirements are the money, the waiting time to get it, and that the gun be old enough, and that I keep a log of all transactions? My father used to be in the Marine Corps and I would like to surprise him with an M1 just like the one he used to shoot. I figure it would be a sentimental gift and something that we could do together.

There are a couple others I'm forgetting but I'll save you the hassle for now.

Also I've been meaning to go green and join GOAL, so I guess I'll do that since you all will be putting up with my annoying questions.

 

[atmay]

One thing here is that you can ONLY buy handguns from FFLs and private individuals in your OWN state. You cannot buy a handgun from out of state without it going through a licensed dealer in MA. This is federal law. Long arms, which aren't nearly as restricted here in MA, can be bought from any FFL in the country, and from private individuals in your OWN state.

 

[MisterHappy]

Welcome to Mass....

First, join GOAL, then go Green, and find a local club (Many of your questions, now and in the future can be answered there...) Shameless plug:

www.srgclub.com

As for the C&R, there is no state involvement - an informational copy of the paperwork is sent to your local PD, but I don't think that they have any say.
It's intended to assist collectors, not to be a business, but it is a nice piece of paper to have. But it doesn't give you carte balnce to bring anything and evertyhing into Mass, though few C&R items woudl be prohibited.

The BATFE has been ( in my limited experience) quite helpful and reasoanble when specific questions came up.

The reply above covers the interstate question.

As for Ferraris, someone else gotta address that one!

 

[lord1234]

I'm still relatively new here and trying to wrap my head around a lot of the laws. I'm currently in the waiting period to get my LTC which should come about a month from today.

There are some things I've searched on and haven't been able to find, and some that probably have been covered and for that I apologize. Here are some Q's I have in no particular order... your patience is appreciated in advance.

Can someone please direct me to the ferrari thread that people seem to keep mentioning?

Why are pre-98 glocks such a big deal here as opposed ot any other pre-98 gun that is now not MA compliant? Just because they are so numerous and popular? Are post-98 glocks any different? The markup is preposterous and IMHO I would only purchase one if I could find one with the right serial number online via one of the auction sites and get it for a fair market price and sent here...

Is there any way to buy a gun from somewhere else and have it not come through an FFL? (i.e. gunbroker or online auction for example, or a private FTF sale in another state or with an out-of-state resident in MA) If so, why do so many places say that FFL transfer is required?

I found this on a police station website in MA, which indicates that an FFL is not required... but I have seen otherwise many times on this forum:


Along the same lines, can I drive to NH/VT and buy a gun that is on both MA lists and bring it back here and mail in an FA-10?

Are all guns that are sold in MA models specific to MA? I.e. is a Sig at 4 seasons the same as a sig at other stores around the country? If not, is it illegal for someone to sell me one of those guns if they are not a MA resident who brought it here legally? If I bought one and had it sent to an FFL they wouldn't sell it to me and I'd have a gun in limbo?

Along those same lines, If all new MA guns are supposed to be MA tested and manufacturers often make the guns 'different' to pass the regs (trigger lbs for example)... but if I bought a MA gun I am allowed to modify said trigger after I purchase it... how is that different from just buying a NH or CT gun with a non-MA trigger and saying I modified it myself after bringing it back here? Could there be any repercussions? Just typing this it doesn't sound smart but I figured I would ask

Lastly, after I get my LTC I intend to apply for my C&R FFL. I have skimmed the thread about it and it seems fairly straightforward except for a couple details. Basically the main requirements are the money, the waiting time to get it, and that the gun be old enough, and that I keep a log of all transactions? My father used to be in the Marine Corps and I would like to surprise him with an M1 just like the one he used to shoot. I figure it would be a sentimental gift and something that we could do together.

There are a couple others I'm forgetting but I'll save you the hassle for now.

Also I've been meaning to go green and join GOAL, so I guess I'll do that since you all will be putting up with my annoying questions.

a) +1 for going green and joining boal
b) you can get an M1 without a c+r but they are worth getting for the discounts you get from retailers!
c) you are allowed to modify the "crappy MA trigger" on any gun, nothing stops you]
d) you can't bring a handgun back from NH or CT, because that would violate federal law, you can have a CT dealer send a gun to an FFL if they fFL is willing to transfer it in

Are all guns that are sold in MA models specific to MA? I.e. is a Sig at 4 seasons the same as a sig at other stores around the country? If not, is it illegal for someone to sell me one of those guns if they are not a MA resident who brought it here legally? If I bought one and had it sent to an FFL they wouldn't sell it to me and I'd have a gun in limbo?

e) 1) no
2) no
3) no, if they do a private sale, dealer won't sell it
4) thats correct most likely.

 

[ceo012384]

Thanks you two... I have already joined a club down the street from me and will go green and join GOAL shortly.

OK so all handguns if they are from out of state have to come to an FFL. What about the further points within that I asked? I.e. is a sig226 a sig226? Is an m&p9c the same nationwide? or do they have to be MA neutered somehow? I.e. if I find a 5 year old m&p9c in perfect shape for 200 bucks and have it shipped to an FFL, can he sell it to me even though it will likely have a light trigger? Or something like that

 

[ceo012384]

b) you can get an M1 without a c+r but they are worth getting for the discounts you get from retailers!

Can you elaborate on this?

1) no
2) no
3) no, if they do a private sale, dealer won't sell it
4) thats correct most likely.

So basically the MA laws have created a monopoly for the MA gun shops and we cannot take advantage of any good deals outside the state... figures.

 

[jdubois]

Everybody else has already covered no handgun purchases outside of your own state.

Lastly, after I get my LTC I intend to apply for my C&R FFL. I have skimmed the thread about it and it seems fairly straightforward except for a couple details. Basically the main requirements are the money, the waiting time to get it, and that the gun be old enough, and that I keep a log of all transactions? My father used to be in the Marine Corps and I would like to surprise him with an M1 just like the one he used to shoot. I figure it would be a sentimental gift and something that we could do together.

Be aware that your C&R license does not permit you to purchase guns for other people. It is not a dealer's license. If you want to be on the up and up, I'd advise buying the M1 you wish to gift to your father without using the C&R license to acquire it (i.e. buy it directly from another MA resident FTF, or in person through a dealer, or through the CMP). Though you would still have to log it into and out of your bound book, if/when you get audited you'll have paperwork to back up the fact that you didn't use your C&R to acquire it.

 

[jdubois]

So basically the MA laws have created a monopoly for the MA gun shops and we cannot take advantage of any good deals outside the state... figures.

It's really federal laws that have created the 'monopoly'. What the MA laws have done is artificially raise the prices on a large number of types of handguns, and mostly shut the MA gun dealers off from those sales.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Is there any way to buy a gun from somewhere else and have it not come through an FFL?

Yes, but it's a three step process:

1. Pay the seller to leave the gun to you in his/her will
2. Wait for the seller to die
3. Go to the seller's location to pick up the gun

This is the only exception that allows a private citizen ("simple civilian" in Rugerspeak) to legally acquire a handgun out of state without using a home state FFL as the transfer agent.

 

[ceo012384]

So there are basically no guns that can be bought on, say, gunbroker that you could have sent to an FFL and then they could legally sell you? Because even if it was pre-ban it wasn't in the state already, therefore non-compliance?

Be aware that your C&R license does not permit you to purchase guns for other people. It is not a dealer's license. If you want to be on the up and up, I'd advise buying the M1 you wish to gift to your father without using the C&R license to acquire it (i.e. buy it directly from another MA resident FTF, or in person through a dealer, or through the CMP). Though you would still have to log it into and out of your bound book, if/when you get audited you'll have paperwork to back up the fact that you didn't use your C&R to acquire it.

I shouldn't have said FOR him... it would essentially be mine that he would shoot with me... he would never go without me.

Yes, but it's a three step process:

1. Pay them to leave the gun to you in their will
2. Wait for them to die
3. Go to their location to pick up the gun

I can be quite persuasive...

 

[jdubois]

1. Pay them to leave the gun to you in their will
2. Wait for them to die
3. Go to their location to pick up the gun

Additional method:

1. Go to downtown Fitchburg and find my buddy "Mac Daddy G."
2. Pay whatever he is asking.
3. Get caught and enjoy the love of a good roommate.

 

[ceo012384]

Hey I am green now, cool. Time to go check out the member areas...

 

[jdubois]

So there are basically no guns that can be bought on, say, gunbroker that you could have sent to an FFL and then they could legally sell you? Because even if it was pre-ban it wasn't in the state already, therefore non-compliance?

If the gun is MA compliant, you can purchase it on Gunbroker and go through your local FFL. If it is not MA compliant, but has paperwork showing that it was sold in MA at some point before the '98 cut off date, you can purchase it on Gunbroker and go through your local FFL. If it is not MA compliant and it does not have paperwork, good luck finding an FFL who will touch it.

I shouldn't have said FOR him... it would essentially be mine that he would shoot with me... he would never go without me.

No problem then.

 

[william_munny]

Can someone please direct me to the ferrari thread that people seem to keep mentioning?

I can help with that one. Go here to get all sorts of NES backstory questions answered. The one you're thinking of is linked by EC in post #112.

 

[lord1234]

get ready for an emptier wallet.

 

[ceo012384]

If the gun is MA compliant, you can purchase it on Gunbroker and go through your local FFL.

Alright... but just because that model gun is on both of the MA lists does not make it compliant... i.e. it would in most cases need to have been manufactured specifically for MA sale?

get ready for an emptier wallet.

No worries, racing already did that to me

 

[Scrivener]

It's really federal laws that have created the 'monopoly'. What the MA laws have done is artificially raise the prices on a large number of types of handguns, and mostly shut the MA gun dealers off from those sales.

If "t's really federal laws that have created the 'monopoly,'" then how can Massachusetts laws "artificially raise the prices on a large number of types of handguns, and mostly shut the MA gun dealers off from those sales?"

Federal law permits the interstate transfer of firearms through FFL's. That GunBroker, GunsAmerica, etc. exist is proof that interstate sales can be done, to the extent state law permits.

The "monopoly" is solely the result of Massachusetts law. Federal law had nothing to do with it.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Alright... but just because that model gun is on both of the MA lists does not make it compliant... i.e. it would in most cases need to have been manufactured specifically for MA sale?

No. but presence on one of the two published lists (no guns are on "both lists" - one is for lab tested guns; the other is for guns certified as target guns) does not mean it is compliant with AG regulations that are explained only at the time they initiate legal proceedings.

 

[Underwhere]

There are some companies that make MA versions of guns with heavier triggers.
The Walther PPS has a MA trigger, as does a bunch of M&P's I believe.
It doesn't make them illegal to own, a dealer cannot sell you them.

 

[jdubois]

If "t's really federal laws that have created the 'monopoly,'" then how can Massachusetts laws "artificially raise the prices on a large number of types of handguns, and mostly shut the MA gun dealers off from those sales?"

The only monopoly that is created is by the Federal laws that have said only in state sellers can sell you handguns. As long as there is enough competition in local gun shops, the 'in state' monopoly isn't very effective, as you can always find a shop that will transfer it for you. But if the competition is low, the shop can choose to transfer it or not, and charge whatever they wish for the transfer.

The "monopoly" is solely the result of Massachusetts law. Federal law had nothing to do with it.

If the MA stores cannot even sell the guns in questions, how have the MA laws created any kind of "monopoly" for them on those sales?

 

[ceo012384]

No. but presence on one of the two published lists (no guns are on "both lists" - one is for lab tested guns; the other is for guns certified as target guns) does not mean it is compliant with AG regulations that are explained only at the time they initiate legal proceedings.

There are some companies that make MA versions of guns with heavier triggers.
The Walther PPS has a MA trigger, as does a bunch of M&P's I believe.
It doesn't make them illegal to own, a dealer cannot sell you them.

Now this is starting to make sense, this is the part I was most unlcear about and I don't think I saw answered elsewhere.

Is there a list anywhere of guns that have modifications to make them MA compliant from the factory?

For example, a SW1911 I am most sure is the same gun nationwide, and an FFL would have no problem transferring that gun to you in a legal sale.

However, an M&P9 from out of state would have a different trigger and also likely come with high-capacity magazines, therefore they could not legally sell it to you.

Correct?

 

[Scrivener]

TIf the MA stores cannot even sell the guns in questions, how have the MA laws created any kind of "monopoly" for them on those sales?

YOU used the term "monopoly;" not I. And the STATE law limiting the type of guns that can be sold makes it highly unlikely that sources outside MA will be able to provide MA-compliant guns, thus favoring MA dealers.

Since non-compliant, non-exempt guns cannot be lawfully transferred by a MA dealer, the result is NO such sales - hardly a condition of "monopoly."

 

[jdubois]

YOU used the term "monopoly;" not I.

Actually, it was the OP who used the term. I put it in single quotes in my reply to (try to) make it clear I didn't agree with the term.

And the STATE law limiting the type of guns that can be sold makes it highly unlikely that sources outside MA will be able to provide MA-compliant guns, thus favoring MA dealers.

I don't see how any state law limiting what MA dealers can sell can be said to favor MA dealers.

Since non-compliant, non-exempt guns cannot be lawfully transferred by a MA dealer, the result is NO such sales - hardly a condition of "monopoly."

Exactly. MA laws do not create any kind of monopoly for MA dealers.

 

[CRSIII]

 

[terraformer]

The "monopoly" is solely the result of Massachusetts law. Federal law had nothing to do with it.

The federal law preempts my ability to travel to another market in another state. It shuts down my ability to have things shipped to me. It interferes with interstate trade. It creates the underlying condition with which the state laws need to be effective to their aims. Without it, the laws of MA would be irrelevant.

As such, the federal laws have everything to do with it. Without them, we could travel and MA distributors would not have the stranglehold on us that they do. We can not. Even if we ship list handguns into MA for "better prices", the monopoly created by the FFL system (federal law) and the MIRCS system create costs that wipe out the savings.

So yes, the federal law, GCA 68 I believe, very much creates constraints of trade that are very relevant to price and market availability. ie; The Monopoly. A monopoly does not require that one own the market or even be the entity selling services in the market as the 1936 Robinson-Patman amendments to Sherman as well as the original make clear.

To create a coercive monopoly you only have to Divide territories and engage in exclusive dealing to have created and abused the monopoly. Just because Parker immunizes the states, doesn't mean that they can't create, foster and abuse monopolies. Parker just makes it not illegal.

ETA: Edits in italic

 

[cekim]

Exactly. MA laws do not create any kind of monopoly for MA dealers.

They certainly do for ammo...

As for handguns - that's a bit more complex because of the 1968 nazi law...

Though MA generally creates a "hostile work environment" for online and out-of-state sales to MA which generally causes many to say "no MA" because they don't know, don't want to know and no better than to not know MA laws...

So, certainly the Federal Law is a big part of handguns, but it is not the only part, nor the most troubling. The AG "making new law" with malicious prosecution and nuisance lawsuits which no check to their power is much more difficult to fight that generally unconstitutional legislation (as we will see post heller/chicago, etc...)

 

[DukeNukem]

Ma Laws are so confusing. So lets say an individual has a Class A LTC and wants to buy a Glock 27 from a person in Ma can they do that person to person right?. If im reading the GOAL site correct it pretty much says even if the firearm isnt approved you could still buy it and carry it as long as the purchase isnt a dealer. ( I know some of you hate this stuff, but believe me this site has been extremely helpful to me and you guys are great examples of what gun owners are really like in the US, Thanks in advance ).

 

[lord1234]

Ma Laws are so confusing. So lets say an individual has a Class A LTC and wants to buy a Glock 27 from a person in Ma can they do that person to person right?. If im reading the GOAL site correct it pretty much says even if the firearm isnt approved you could still buy it and carry it as long as the purchase isnt a dealer. ( I know some of you hate this stuff, but believe me this site has been extremely helpful to me and you guys are great examples of what gun owners are really like in the US, Thanks in advance ).

The onus is not on the individual where they buy it, it's on the FFL. If an FFL chooses to sell a glock 27, they can. However, good luck finding one.

If you do buy via an FTF sale, then yes, you are correct, you can use it, carry it, practice with it, even hug it.

 

[TonyDedo]

I think there may be some confusion between "purchase" and "transfer."

You can purchase a handgun anywhere in the country; I can call up John's Gun Shop in Vermont, give them my credit card number and buy any handgun they have in stock. However, they cannot mail the gun to me (likewise, I cannot drive up there and pick it up). Federal law prohibits the transfer of handguns across state lines. John's Gun Shop would have to mail the firearm to an FFL in Massachusetts, and the FFL will transfer the firearm directly to me.

However, Massachusetts FFLs are restricted (by state law) from transferring handguns that are not on the approved firearms roster, unless they were owned in Massachusetts prior to '98.

So you could call up John's Gun Shop and buy, for instance, a Springfield XD. You'll pay John $500 for the gun, and he'll ship it to Four Seasons for you to pick up. But as soon as Carl at Four Seasons opens the box, he'll say "no way, I'm not transferring that firearm," and tell you you're SOL. He'll either have to ship it back or send it to an FFL in another state, and hopefully you can find a way to get your money back. If, however, the gun was a Smith & Wesson 686, Carl will charge you $40 (or whatever he charges for transfer), fill out the paperwork, and you'll be on your way.

There nothing illegal about owning a handgun that's not on the roster - the restriction is on the FFL, which prevents him from transferring the handgun to you.

There are various exceptions, and off-roster handguns do get into the state. Once they are here and owned by a LTC-equipped MA resident, you can buy them in face-to-face transactions. You just can't transfer them through an FFL.

So there's certainly no monopoly as far as purchasing firearms is concerned. Any new gun you can buy at Four Seasons, you can order online from an out of state dealer and have shipped to your local FFL for you to pick up. Few people do this, however, because any cost savings from an out of state dealer are usually lost when you have to pay the transfer fee to your local FFL (plus it's such a hassle).

 

[DukeNukem]

The onus is not on the individual where they buy it, it's on the FFL. If an FFL chooses to sell a glock 27, they can. However, good luck finding one.

Thank you Sir, I already found one.

even hug it.

I might hug it, I like Sigs better but couldnt pass up the oppurtunity to buy a Glock 27 , obviously a rarity in Ma. It seems like a good CCW, thanks for your help.