A couple random ?'s

[ceo012384]

Now this is starting to make sense, this is the part I was most unlcear about and I don't think I saw answered elsewhere.

Is there a list anywhere of guns that have modifications to make them MA compliant from the factory?

For example, a SW1911 I am most sure is the same gun nationwide, and an FFL would have no problem transferring that gun to you in a legal sale.

However, an M&P9 from out of state would have a different trigger and also likely come with high-capacity magazines, therefore they could not legally sell it to you.

Correct?

No one has answered this, and it made me do some more looking around and I think there are some details of the laws that people in this thread and elsewhere on this forum are glossing over with broad statements that may not be quite right... such as the following:

If the gun is MA compliant, you can purchase it on Gunbroker and go through your local FFL. If it is not MA compliant, but has paperwork showing that it was sold in MA at some point before the '98 cut off date, you can purchase it on Gunbroker and go through your local FFL. If it is not MA compliant and it does not have paperwork, good luck finding an FFL who will touch it.

I don't think this is quite accurate. When you say MA compliant, you mean the EOPS roster and the AG's regs, both, correct? I.e. the gun is not MA compliant if it isn't on both the EOPS and the AG regs? If so, I think the following is true (if not don't take my statements as rude):

The stuff in MGL C140 S123 about the gun being owned by a MA licensee only covers guns not on the EOPS list.

940 CMR 16.07 covers the AG's exceptions which only requires manufacture prior to the ban and has nothing to do with where it was bought. I.e. any gun on the EOPS list made pre-10/98 can be bought from anywhere in the country and transferred via FFL.

So, for example I could buy a pre-10/98 glock from any state (most are on the EOPS list), have it shipped to an FFL, and have them legally transfer it to me. This is a way to avoid the preposterous and astronomical prices of glocks in MA. Right????

A further calrification: I would simply have to make sure the seller did not send with the gun any post-ban hi cap mags, but pre-ban hi caps would be more than welcome...

 

[lord1234]

wrong

The pre 10/98 glock would have to show provenance in that it was in MA prior to 10/98.(via receipts or some such).

I notice you are confused by MA's gun laws. Welcome to Massachusetts.

 

[ceo012384]

The pre 10/98 glock would have to show provenance in that it was in MA prior to 10/98.(via receipts or some such)

Like I said the stuff in MGL C140 S123 does not apply because the gun is on the EOPS roster.

So where is this delineated? Show me

 

[Baystatesuks]

Not to make this thread worse (but I really want to egg on Scrivener), you need to check not only the statutes but the AG regs in MA to ascertain whether or not the gun can be transferred from a dealer to you (note how I worded it - transfer and not possession). You see, when they wrote those statutes they didn't make possession of many guns illegal (that might have made some of the statutes unconstitutional) but instead they made transfer to mere mortal citizens of MA illegal. Ergo, if you got it you can keep it but if you don't have it you can't get it.

This explanation is a gross oversimplification, but it is sure to invite Scriever's comments and I could use a good Scrivening.

 

[cekim]

Like I said the stuff in MGL C140 S123 does not apply because the gun is on the EOPS roster.

So much to learn young grasshappa....

It's been said here already - there are 2 lists... EOPS and whatever the AG feels like...FFLs MUST adhere to both or face expensive nuisance lawsuits/malicious prosecution from the AG.

 

[ceo012384]

you need to check not only the statutes but the AG regs in MA to ascertain whether or not the gun can be transferred from a dealer to you

It's been said here already - there are 2 lists... EOPS and whatever the AG feels like...FFLs MUST adhere to both or face expensive nuisance lawsuits/malicious prosecution from the AG.

Yes, I know all about the AG's regs, and mentioned them in my post above. Look at post 31 and tell me specifically what I am missing.

The glock would be exempt from them since it was manufactured pre-10/98

16.07: Transfers of Used Handguns
(1) 940 CMR 16.03 and 16.05(2) and (3) shall not apply to the transfer of (or offer to transfer) any handgun that previously has been sold at retail to a consumer and that was manufactured prior to the enforcement date for those provisions.

Right?

Specifically, someone show me exactly what prohibits me from buying a pre-ban glock form an out of state person or business, having them send it to a MA FFL, and then having them legally transfer it to me. From what I can see, the answer is nothing.

 

[terraformer]

The glock would be exempt from them since it was manufactured pre-10/98

Specifically, someone show me exactly what prohibits me from buying a pre-ban glock form an out of state person or business, having them send it to a MA FFL, and then having them legally transfer it to me. From what I can see, the answer is nothing.

I have looked into this before but don't remember much of what I found becuse generally anything on the list is widely available anyhow so very few out side of glocks are not sold new. I believe on this one point you may be correct. IIRC:

• That not being on the list means it had to be lawfully owned on 10/xx/98 in MA.
• That being on the list means it just had to be mfg'd BEFORE 10/xx/98.
• That being on the list and AG "approved" means it is good to go period.

This is how those Detroit G22s are available through some local shops.

NOW, that being said, the FFL is the final arbiter. Don't go there demanding he sell you something. It won't work. You politely ask if you can transfer in a pre-98 glock and they will let you know if they are willing to do so. But you will find they mostly won't. See the above monopoly/anti-competitive discussion. Additionally, there is a lot of paranoia in this state and it is found everywhere. For good reason. Look at the Rockport thread. It will likely turn out that NONE of that stuff was illegal. Yet it made for a killer photo op. These shops don't want to be the photo op. They will go out of business. Believe me, these shops 'ef with each other all the time. They scare the crap out of people saying to a customer who bought a used off list pre 98 gun at new to the area shop:

"you bought what where??? OMG, you can get in trouble. You should have bought it from us, we would have made sure you made a legal purchase."

A supposedly reputable shop did this to a new shop (read: new competitor) recently and I was around to hear it happen. (no I won't say who and don't assume it was in the area of where I live...)

Bottom line. You are a Ma**h*** now. BOHICA and learn to live with it. You will pay more and it will not be just, but it is legal. Support GOAL and petition your representatives to change the system.

 

[ceo012384]

THANK YOU! Finally a proper response besides "you're a newbie go read the laws"

• That not being on the list means it had to be lawfully owned on 10/xx/98 in MA.
• That being on the list means it just had to be mfg'd BEFORE 10/xx/98.
• That being on the list and AG "approved" means it is good to go period.

That is how I read it too... it seems like everyone else just said no no no because that is what they've read other people saying. That's how the internet goes though.

You will pay more and it will not be just, but it is legal. Support GOAL and petition your representatives to change the system.

I have gone green and gotten a 3 year membership to GOAL.

However, I don't think this particular argument has anything to do with the laws, they are pretty clear in this case from what I can see. It is a problem with the shop.

I am going to look into this. An FFL who would refuse a lawful transfer for the purpose of his own price gouging or simply out of greed is not one who I would like to give any of my money to. And I refuse to pay 700 dollars for a 12 year old plastic gun.

I see a shop as having two options to retain my business:
1. Sell their EOPS listed pre-ban guns for a reasonable price.
2. Accept the fact that consumers would like to buy guns at reasonable prices and will do so from elsewhere, and transfer them for them.

A shop that does one of these will likely see me coming back because they were fair and upfront. Everyone likes to harp on "supporting your local shop"... but why would I want to do this if they are ripping me off? Why do people just bend over and take it? Can anyone direct me to a fair and reputable shop that would willingly do this sort of legal transfer? I would like to give them my money. I would take the money I saved and spend it on accessories and ammo at their shop, everyone is happy.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Specifically, someone show me exactly what prohibits me from buying a pre-ban glock form an out of state person or business, having them send it to a MA FFL, and then having them legally transfer it to me. From what I can see, the answer is nothing.

Almost all the Glocks that dealers sell as pre-10/21/1998 mfr are coming from OUTSIDE MA!! Perfectly legal.

 

[terraformer]

A shop that does one of these will likely see me coming back because they were fair and upfront. Everyone likes to harp on "supporting your local shop"... but why would I want to do this if they are ripping me off? Why do people just bend over and take it? Can anyone direct me to a fair and reputable shop that would willingly do this sort of legal transfer? I would like to give them my money. I would take the money I saved and spend it on accessories and ammo at their shop, everyone is happy.

Voting with your wallet is fine. But please realize that some are price gouging and others want nothing to do with the AG and are scared. It isn't always obvious who is who but one bet is if they refuse to transfer in a pre-98 glock but have a wall full of them, probably a price gouger. If they don't sell glocks then it may be fear. But for your sake, don't try to lecture them on the law. It won't work (they already have a lawyer, they don't need a walkon) and you will as a result have a sour relationship with them and they may be a fine shop otherwise. Respectfully disagree with them and move on.

ETA: The shop has to make some money too. 20% of 500 is a $100. So what you can buy on GB for $500 plus $40 shipping, they can too and they turn around and sell it for $650, that is reasonable.

 

[TonyDedo]

I see a shop as having two options to retain my business:
1. Sell their EOPS listed pre-ban guns for a reasonable price.
2. Accept the fact that consumers would like to buy guns at reasonable prices and will do so from elsewhere, and transfer them for them.

Except that everyone has their own interpretation of what is "reasonable."

Unfortunately there's only one force that truly knows what is "reasonable," and that's the market. And the market says a 12 year old piece of plastic just might be worth $700 because there are lots of people who want to buy them, and not a lot of them available.

 

[ceo012384]

Voting with your wallet is fine. But please realize that some are price gouging and others want nothing to do with the AG and are scared.

ETA: The shop has to make some money too. 20% of 500 is a $100. So what you can buy on GB for $500 plus $40 shipping, they can too and they turn around and sell it for $650, that is reasonable.

I see your point(s).

But take a g19 or 26 for example. I can find a used one in near-mint shape one elsewhere for around 450. I pay a transfer fee and shipping and let's call it 500 done deal in my possession.

You look at all the MA dealers and they sell their 19's and 26's for 700 PLUS TAX so about 740 bucks... and many look beat to hell. That is not a fair price, and is well above the "profit margin" that you're saying is reasonable IMO...

Also, note that many of the MA gun shops claim that they keep profits low on new gun sales and only charge 10% over dealer cost plus tax... then you look at the markup on their used ones that are 'hard to find' and it's not 10%. A little hypocrisy IMO there.

Except that everyone has their own interpretation of what is "reasonable."

Unfortunately there's only one force that truly knows what is "reasonable," and that's the market. And the market says a 12 year old piece of plastic just might be worth $700 because there are lots of people who want to buy them, and not a lot of them available.

True. People will pay it. But that makes me wonder why gun owners around here wouldn't spend half an hour searching around for law info and other sales to save themselves ~200-250 bucks...

 

[ceo012384]

So, back on the issue of post-ban EOPS roster listed guns that have MA-specific features... is there a rule of thumb for this?

Like I said before, a 1911 should be the same nationwide because of the safeties... right?

But a sig has no safety on the first pull so the DA pull needs to be heavy... i.e. sig makes MA-specific models. An M&P or PPS same story... DA only so they have MA-specific trigger.


So, SA only with appropriate safeties - non MA specific, can buy from anywhere and transfer.

DA only or DA/SA with decocker will be MA specific and you can't buy just ANY unit and have it shipped to an FFL.

Is that generally correct?

 

[TonyDedo]

I see your point(s).

But take a g19 or 26 for example. I can find a used one in near-mint shape one elsewhere for around 450. I pay a transfer fee and shipping and let's call it 500 done deal in my possession.

You look at all the MA dealers and they sell their 19's and 26's for 700 PLUS TAX so about 740 bucks... and many look beat to hell. That is not a fair price, and is well above the "profit margin" that you're saying is reasonable IMO...

If you can find a pre-1998 GLOCK for $450 and get it transferred through a MA dealer, then you've found yourself a good deal.

But I don't think most MA gun dealers are taking the time to search out pre-98 GLOCKs one at a time and ordering them for resale in their shop. It's just not their business model.

When a shop is selling GLOCKs from their own inventory, they're usually from a lot of police trade-ins or part of an estate sale, and they're usually well priced (see the GLOCK 22s and 23s for sale at Four Seasons).

When you see a lone G19 sitting in a case, it's probably on consignment, and it's probably listed at $700 because that's about what the guy who's trying to sell it bought it for, or thinks he can get for it. And he's probably right, because I don't think there's a wealth of pre-98 GLOCKs just sitting out there waiting to be transferred into MA.

Same goes for preban ARs. They're commonly $1400+ on the shelf of any MA gun shop. But if you know where to look, you can find them for around $1k. But just because one person can find a deal doesn't adjust the price point of an entire market.

 

[KMaurer]

The same holds for most everything that you buy, wherever you live. If you know the product well and are willing to spend a few hours searching, you can almost always get a much better deal than you can simply walking in off the street.

Ken

 

[ceo012384]

So, back on the issue of post-ban EOPS roster listed guns that have MA-specific features... is there a rule of thumb for this? Or a way to find out?

Like I said before, a 1911 should be the same nationwide because of the safeties... right? Thus you could purchase from anywhere and transfer through FFL.

But a sig has no safety on the first pull so the DA pull needs to be heavy... i.e. sig makes MA-specific models, correct? An M&P or PPS same story... DA only so they will have a MA-specific trigger.


So, SA only with appropriate safeties - non MA specific, can buy from anywhere and transfer.

DA only or DA/SA with decocker will likely be MA specific and you can't buy just ANY unit and have it shipped to an FFL.

Is that generally correct?

No responses to this... Bueller? Any general rules?

 

[terraformer]

Is that generally correct? is there a rule of thumb for this?

Answer to both questions is no, it's not.

Like I said before, a 1911 should be the same nationwide because of the safeties... right? Thus you could purchase from anywhere and transfer through FFL.

So, SA only with appropriate safeties - non MA specific, can buy from anywhere and transfer.

Neither of this is true. Since the question deals with MA compliance, I am only going to discuss new or recent vintage guns. If it's not on the list, it can't be sold here. Period. If it is on the list, it can only be sold here, in practice, with a declaration of compliance sent by the MFG to the AG's office. Without that, despite the gun actually meeting the requirements of both the list and the AGs regs, it can't be sold here. So any 1911 is not OK.

So EOPS requires being on the list and that requires by law to have been tested and said test submitted to EOPS. The AG's regs have no such testing requirement but in practice NO ONE will sell a gun on the list but that has not been declared AG safe by the MFG.

Also, the local gun shops can NOT get these guns sent to them. Period. The distributors won't do it. They are the true gate keepers as far as new guns go.

 

[ceo012384]

Answer to both questions is no, it's not.



Neither of this is true. Since the question deals with MA compliance, I am only going to discuss new or recent vintage guns. If it's not on the list, it can't be sold here. Period. If it is on the list, it can only be sold here, in practice, with a declaration of compliance sent by the MFG to the AG's office. Without that, despite the gun actually meeting the requirements of both the list and the AGs regs, it can't be sold here. So any 1911 is not OK.

So EOPS requires being on the list and that requires by law to have been tested and said test submitted to EOPS. The AG's regs have no such testing requirement but in practice NO ONE will sell a gun on the list but that has not been declared AG safe by the MFG.

Also, the local gun shops can NOT get these guns sent to them. Period. The distributors won't do it. They are the true gate keepers as far as new guns go.

I'm sorry, maybe part of my question was lost through the posts... let me clarify: I am talking about post-ban guns that are on the EOPS roster and have met the AG's regs.

So when I said 1911... I meant one of the ones on the list, say a SW1911. If I find a 2 year old SW1911 from out of state for a good deal... that can be transferred via FFL, correct?

But what about a sig? It's on the list, it's passed the AG's regs... but don't they make them with MA specific triggers? So a 1 year old sig that I might find for a good deal from another state cannot come in via this method..? Same would go for an M&P or a PPS, etc.

 

[Scrivener]

Mass-compliant guns have a specific SKU number. In the (highly unlikely) event the out-of-state gun is a Mass-compliant model, you could have it shipped to your local FFL, who could lawfully transfer it to you.

 

[terraformer]

I'm sorry, maybe part of my question was lost through the posts... let me clarify: I am talking about post-ban guns that are on the EOPS roster and have met the AG's regs.

So when I said 1911... I meant one of the ones on the list, say a SW1911. If I find a 2 year old SW1911 from out of state for a good deal... that can be transferred via FFL, correct?

But what about a sig? It's on the list, it's passed the AG's regs... but don't they make them with MA specific triggers? So a 1 year old sig that I might find for a good deal from another state cannot come in via this method..? Same would go for an M&P or a PPS, etc.

OK, yes and correct. Any rostered 1911 may be fine since the only ones rostered have mag disconnects IIRC and that wont be a MA specific model. If I am wrong about the indicator not existing at all, then those may be MA specific as well. P22s, etc also fall under this.

Sigs on the other hand have an issue that causes them to require MA specific models. It's not the trigger, but the chambered round indicator which is a hole (not so lovingly called the ma**h***) in the top of the breech. The trigger is the same.

On DAO models the trigger is different, such as the M&Ps, PPS', etc. But generally there is a MA specific model.

 

[ceo012384]

Thanks for the info TF... good post

 

[Len-2A Training]

Terra, I bought a MA compliant S&W 1911 from a MA dealer and it does NOT have a mag disconnect.

 

[cekim]

Terra, I bought a MA compliant S&W 1911 from a MA dealer and it does NOT have a mag disconnect.

I have an M&P, 92 and Sig and from this I can say that any attempt to identify logical, repeatable correlations between "safety features" and compliance is a fool's errand.

From these 3 guns, I can demonstrate with a cross of features:
External safety or lack thereof doesn't matter
Painted extractor round indicator (vs Ma**h***) doesn't matter
Mag disconnect doesn't matter

So, sit back and watch the show... Trying to guess the ending seems impossible...

 

[terraformer]

Terra, I bought a MA compliant S&W 1911 from a MA dealer and it does NOT have a mag disconnect.

Sorry, I thought they did. Well, there is some sort of indicator then I suppose. I have never seen an external one though.

Maybe S&W got a free pass on that one or something...

 

[Scrivener]

OK, yes and correct. Any rostered 1911 may be fine since the only ones rostered have mag disconnects IIRC and that wont be a MA specific model. If I am wrong about the indicator not existing at all, then those may be MA specific as well. P22s, etc also fall under this.

NONSENSE. I have never seen a 1911 with a mag safety.

I had 3 Para Ordnance 1911's and none had that feature. Para's are on the AFR.

I have 4 SVI's and none have that feature. SVI's are on both the AFR and the Target Roster.

If S&W has a mag safety on its 1911, I have yet to see one so equipped. S&W is on the AFR.

Maybe S&W got a free pass on that one or something...

Maybe you ought to acquire a clue.

 

[terraformer]

NONSENSE. I have never seen a 1911 with a mag safety.

I had 3 Para Ordnance 1911's and none had that feature. Para's are on the AFR.

I have 4 SVI's and none have that feature. SVI's are on both the AFR and the Target Roster.

If S&W has a mag safety on its 1911, I have yet to see one so equipped. S&W is on the AFR.

Yes, we have established that so maybe you can add something like perhaps how they are getting through the AG's regs. Do they have a visible CRI? I have not seen one on any of the 1911s in this state.

 

[Scrivener]

Yes, we have established that so maybe you can add something like perhaps how they are getting through the AG's regs. Do they have a visible CRI? I have not seen one on any of the 1911s in this state.

I have no idea what a "CRI" is, but since - by your own admission - you "have not seen one on any of the 1911s in this state," it clearly is not a requirement.

 

[cekim]

Yes, we have established that so maybe you can add something like perhaps how they are getting through the AG's regs.

Easy:

 

[cekim]

I have no idea what a "CRI" is, but since

"Chambered Round Indicator"

 

[terraformer]

"Chambered Round Indicator"

Thanks. They must have the extractor paint trick going on. I do believe there are external extractors on the S&W 1911s. Gotta love that paint thing. I look down at my 92fs and I have no clue if it is loaded looking at that. And this is supposed to be something I am to now rely on instead of good safety protocol...