Vietnam

[Rat187]

We All Gave A Shit....

a letter written to me @ 1991 and reposted to our website

Dear Bob:

I read with interest your letter to the editor and account of the action your unit was involved in near Bien Hoa. I became quite emotionally affected, as I was caught up in that same action - and your account brought back some memories long ago buried in my mind. Suppose it would be best if I could share with you my recollections of that fateful day. You are the first person, other than my crew, that I’ve found who was there and had some idea of the events that day. Possibly I should start by telling you how and why our fire team became involved in your unit’s "ballgame."

I was Razorback 33 and was flying with Razorback 3_? (Al Cornell) leading a light fire team working alone in the pineapple fields, just west of Saigon (DUC HOA or MUC HOA area). We had made a few attacks on bunkers when we received a call from a USAF FAC flying an 01 Birddog over your area of operations. He told us that the operation was in trouble - he spotted our smoke/explosions - and requested our assistance to help in a re-supply effort. We immediately broke off and headed for your area at top speed, following his directions - soon seeing smoke rising from your LZ and surrounding paddies. Upon over flying your LZ and adjacent rice paddies, we saw a number of burning helicopters, 5 or 7, it’s difficult to remember. I do remember telling the team that "those guys must have been ambushed." I thought of command detonated mines or artillery rounds in the LZ, something such as that. Upon arriving, the FAX was telling a TOP TIGER ship to wait for my team, as we would accompany him in to re-supply. My plan was to suppress the dike area boundary to the east of the LZ, as it was heavily vegetated, or hit wherever we drew fire on approach. The TOP TIGER ship set up a left base into the rice paddy, landing to the north - without waiting for my team to join up on him. We, the FAC and me, hollowed for him to stop - not go in - yet he continued! Just as he approached the ground, centered in the paddy, he was hit and the ship rolled over. I couldn’t tell if he was hit by a mine or went over as the result of other fire. One thing stuck in my mind - no one was getting out - I saw no one crawl out of the wreckage and no one went in after them. The aircraft was not on fire, so I wanted to get them out of the wreckage - before it burned. We told our wing ship to cover us, we were going in to get them out - granted in hindsight, not very smart - yet we didn’t want them to burn.

We went in, took a close look at the TOP TIGER bird, saw the infantry troopers flat on their stomachs across the area, some pointing to the east dike. As we took this in, our ship took hits, my starboard pod of 24 rockets (we had a "HOG") was set ablaze and my starboard door gunner took a round through his neck - sending him through the air and almost out the left side. A round had also hit the oil reservoir, as you may remember it was positioned just aft of the firewall and on the right side of the engine. The pressure reservoir split open with a resultant immediate loss of oil pressure. I could see we were next in order of burning ships, and our concern shifted from the TOP TIGER bird to our door gunner. I didn’t know what his condition was, but he was alive and knew we had only seconds left to get him out. Full power/pitch was pulled as we pointed our bird straight for the line of black pajama clad VC lined across the dike firing at will at us some 25 yards away.

The rockets wouldn’t fire, so I raked my hand across the center console to hit the toggle switch, safety wired off, to activate the explosive bolts mounting the rocket pods to the aircraft. They did blow the pods broke off as we climbed out and over the VC. To this day, I don’t know if or how many of the bastards we took with us - I can only hope all was not in vain in that some of them bought it! We turned back west, along the waterway just North of the LZ and made it about two clicks before going in, no further damage to our ship, but our engine was gone - (that engine will run for a short while without oil!) and we wanted our wingman to get our door gunner to the hospital ASAP.

Well, that’s what I saw of that day - the General officer - a BG landed at our ship to see how we made out - then took off to go back and orbit over the area where he then took fire and was hit, along with his aide, the same two you wrote about. That wasn’t very smart of him as well. Shortly after, I went to your base at Tay Ninh. It was there where I bought your officers club a round of drinks after entering covered. I couldn’t tell it was a club! It was also there where I learned from your pilots some more of the story. I was told that the Command and Control had not allowed your guns to hit the area prior to assault - supposedly there were no "enemy" and the LZ was cold. As usual, I was told that the "counterpart" wouldn’t approve suppression of the LZ. Again, if factual - dumb as dirt! How many times has that occurred? I’ve often wondered how many were killed needlessly in the action of that day. I learned a lesson I never forgot on that one - thereafter and on the following tour in Viet Nam as a gun driver, C&C and as the Commander of the 162d Assault Helicopter Company, I never bought that line of bull - always, always, always shot up everything in sight on our assaults - Vietnamese like it or not!! One thing for sure - never an ambush, no burning helicopters in the LZ!

Well, I’ve said a little - "coming out of the closet", I suppose as the result of your writing. Also please don’t construe my commends to cast a negative light on the efforts of the TOP TIGER aircraft commander, whoever he was, as I hold all my comrades in highest esteem. Just another case of "maybe it didn’t have to happen that way". Why he didn’t wait will only be known to him and God. So much has been held up inside of me these past 20 years. I’m sure you understand……

Sincerely,

Ken

 

[shiprec13]

My father was a chopper pilot over there. He’s been back at least a dozen times in as many years. I was fortunate enough to spend 3 weeks over there a couple of years ago for work. I’d go back in a heartbeat. The people were great. The sights and the food unbelievable.
Yes watch your wallet. Don’t fall for the pretty girl offering massages. You’ll get an old mama San instead. Crossing the streets is like frogged. Though we were told stay in your oath and they’ll go around you. If you hesitate it screws them up and that’s how accidents happen.
When in Saigon Backpacker street is place where you can go to get anything you want.

 

[appraiser]

maybe Navy Moose will chime in, he has spent some time there and married a wonderful young lady from there a couple of years ago.... I think I met a couple of NES'rs at the wedding. I sent him a message on FB and hopefully he will chime in here to help you out.

 

[Dennis in MA]

You mean a Datsun! My dad used to tell me to go cut the lawn 'cause
"There were Japs in there that didn't know the war was over..."

Oh no. This was 1984 or so. 30 years after the war. Lol

I saw an ad on TV for a hand held gadget or maybe it was a smart phone with an app. In the commercial someone spoke English into it and it translated it to some Asian Language.

Hopefully some Asian language is the one they speak. Rofl.

 

[enbloc]

Oh no. This was 1984 or so. 30 years after the war. Lol

Korea?

 

[enbloc]

We All Gave A Shit....

a letter written to me @ 1991 and reposted to our website

Dear Bob:

I read with interest your letter to the editor and account of the action your unit was involved in near Bien Hoa. I became quite emotionally affected, as I was caught up in that same action - and your account brought back some memories long ago buried in my mind. Suppose it would be best if I could share with you my recollections of that fateful day. You are the first person, other than my crew, that I’ve found who was there and had some idea of the events that day. Possibly I should start by telling you how and why our fire team became involved in your unit’s "ballgame."

I was Razorback 33 and was flying with Razorback 3_? (Al Cornell) leading a light fire team working alone in the pineapple fields, just west of Saigon (DUC HOA or MUC HOA area). We had made a few attacks on bunkers when we received a call from a USAF FAC flying an 01 Birddog over your area of operations. He told us that the operation was in trouble - he spotted our smoke/explosions - and requested our assistance to help in a re-supply effort. We immediately broke off and headed for your area at top speed, following his directions - soon seeing smoke rising from your LZ and surrounding paddies. Upon over flying your LZ and adjacent rice paddies, we saw a number of burning helicopters, 5 or 7, it’s difficult to remember. I do remember telling the team that "those guys must have been ambushed." I thought of command detonated mines or artillery rounds in the LZ, something such as that. Upon arriving, the FAX was telling a TOP TIGER ship to wait for my team, as we would accompany him in to re-supply. My plan was to suppress the dike area boundary to the east of the LZ, as it was heavily vegetated, or hit wherever we drew fire on approach. The TOP TIGER ship set up a left base into the rice paddy, landing to the north - without waiting for my team to join up on him. We, the FAC and me, hollowed for him to stop - not go in - yet he continued! Just as he approached the ground, centered in the paddy, he was hit and the ship rolled over. I couldn’t tell if he was hit by a mine or went over as the result of other fire. One thing stuck in my mind - no one was getting out - I saw no one crawl out of the wreckage and no one went in after them. The aircraft was not on fire, so I wanted to get them out of the wreckage - before it burned. We told our wing ship to cover us, we were going in to get them out - granted in hindsight, not very smart - yet we didn’t want them to burn.

We went in, took a close look at the TOP TIGER bird, saw the infantry troopers flat on their stomachs across the area, some pointing to the east dike. As we took this in, our ship took hits, my starboard pod of 24 rockets (we had a "HOG") was set ablaze and my starboard door gunner took a round through his neck - sending him through the air and almost out the left side. A round had also hit the oil reservoir, as you may remember it was positioned just aft of the firewall and on the right side of the engine. The pressure reservoir split open with a resultant immediate loss of oil pressure. I could see we were next in order of burning ships, and our concern shifted from the TOP TIGER bird to our door gunner. I didn’t know what his condition was, but he was alive and knew we had only seconds left to get him out. Full power/pitch was pulled as we pointed our bird straight for the line of black pajama clad VC lined across the dike firing at will at us some 25 yards away.

The rockets wouldn’t fire, so I raked my hand across the center console to hit the toggle switch, safety wired off, to activate the explosive bolts mounting the rocket pods to the aircraft. They did blow the pods broke off as we climbed out and over the VC. To this day, I don’t know if or how many of the bastards we took with us - I can only hope all was not in vain in that some of them bought it! We turned back west, along the waterway just North of the LZ and made it about two clicks before going in, no further damage to our ship, but our engine was gone - (that engine will run for a short while without oil!) and we wanted our wingman to get our door gunner to the hospital ASAP.

Well, that’s what I saw of that day - the General officer - a BG landed at our ship to see how we made out - then took off to go back and orbit over the area where he then took fire and was hit, along with his aide, the same two you wrote about. That wasn’t very smart of him as well. Shortly after, I went to your base at Tay Ninh. It was there where I bought your officers club a round of drinks after entering covered. I couldn’t tell it was a club! It was also there where I learned from your pilots some more of the story. I was told that the Command and Control had not allowed your guns to hit the area prior to assault - supposedly there were no "enemy" and the LZ was cold. As usual, I was told that the "counterpart" wouldn’t approve suppression of the LZ. Again, if factual - dumb as dirt! How many times has that occurred? I’ve often wondered how many were killed needlessly in the action of that day. I learned a lesson I never forgot on that one - thereafter and on the following tour in Viet Nam as a gun driver, C&C and as the Commander of the 162d Assault Helicopter Company, I never bought that line of bull - always, always, always shot up everything in sight on our assaults - Vietnamese like it or not!! One thing for sure - never an ambush, no burning helicopters in the LZ!

Well, I’ve said a little - "coming out of the closet", I suppose as the result of your writing. Also please don’t construe my commends to cast a negative light on the efforts of the TOP TIGER aircraft commander, whoever he was, as I hold all my comrades in highest esteem. Just another case of "maybe it didn’t have to happen that way". Why he didn’t wait will only be known to him and God. So much has been held up inside of me these past 20 years. I’m sure you understand……

Sincerely,

Ken

Just incredible to read. Incredible.
I hold the men who battled in Vietnam in the highest regard.
~Matt

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Geez Rob, I didn't think any knowledgeable person thought we were defeated in Vietnam.

I was not referring to it simply as a military defeat.

The US fought to keep communism out of South Vietnam (domino theory and all that). The other side fought to have a single communist government rule the nation. One side met its goal; the other spent immense treasure in both lives and $$ only to see the enemy achieve exactly what the US was trying to stop.

 

[M60]

I was not referring to it simply as a military defeat.

The US fought to keep communism out of South Vietnam (domino theory and all that). The other side fought to have a single communist government rule the nation. One side met its goal; the other spent immense treasure in both lives and $$ only to see the enemy achieve exactly what the US was trying to stop.

But that's not what you said. We fought to maintain South Vietnam's independence as a separate country, rather than have it forced to become a part of north vietnam. The troops were successful in doing their part. They won the battles. The government did not do it's part. In fact, the U.S. government not only failed to do its job, the U.S. government clearly interfered with the troops objective by removing them. It sucks to win the game, only to have the coach forfit the game while the clock is still running.

 

[vcman]

Uggg.. the vietnamwar over like 40 years ago, you guys fough hard and honorably,and most people not really mad over the whole thing.all that is in the past, let it go.from what i understand is that it cost soo much money to keep the war going that the us goverment have to cut cost and end the war.

 

[Rat187]

Just incredible to read. Incredible.
I hold the men who battled in Vietnam in the highest regard.
~Matt

Roger that Matt,

I just wanted to make point, 'Nam' was a MF'er, 58,318 KIA's, 300,00 WIA's basically in 5 years of fighting. Those some here on NES that see us 'Nam Vets' in some warped/distorted light, cuz we were 2-3 year 'Rice Bowl' amateurs , space shuttle DG's, Old Fudd's, not a professional army, OR we have no respect for those that served after us, couldn't be more wrong. We're faithful, loyal and have laid a path soaked with our blood & guts for generations who fought in post Vietnam wars would have a leg up. Yea I said that

 

[Rat187]

Uggg.. the vietnamwar over like 40 years ago, you guys fough hard and honorably,and most people not really mad over the whole thing.all that is in the past, let it go.from what i understand is that it cost soo much money to keep the war going that the us goverment have to cut cost and end the war.

I understand your POV, but I also understand Vietnamese culture and American culture are distinctly different. Ease up lad...

 

[enbloc]

Roger that Matt,

I just wanted to make point, 'Nam' was a MF'er, 58,318 KIA's, 300,00 WIA's basically in 5 years of fighting. Those some here on NES that see us 'Nam Vets' in some warped/distorted light, cuz we were 2-3 year 'Rice Bowl' amateurs , space shuttle DG's, Old Fudd's, not a professional army, OR we have no respect for those that served after us, couldn't be more wrong. We're faithful, loyal and have laid a path soaked with our blood & guts for generations who fought in post Vietnam wars would have a leg up. Yea I said that

I see you as you are. Hard-fighting Men.
You all have my respect and my gratitude.
~Matt

 

[M60]

My father was a chopper pilot over there. He’s been back at least a dozen times in as many years. I was fortunate enough to spend 3 weeks over there a couple of years ago for work. I’d go back in a heartbeat. The people were great. The sights and the food unbelievable.
Yes watch your wallet. Don’t fall for the pretty girl offering massages. You’ll get an old mama San instead. Crossing the streets is like frogged. Though we were told stay in your oath and they’ll go around you. If you hesitate it screws them up and that’s how accidents happen.
When in Saigon Backpacker street is place where you can go to get anything you want.

Respect to your dad inbound.

 

[M60]

Roger that Matt,

I just wanted to make point, 'Nam' was a MF'er, 58,318 KIA's, 300,00 WIA's basically in 5 years of fighting. Those some here on NES that see us 'Nam Vets' in some warped/distorted light, cuz we were 2-3 year 'Rice Bowl' amateurs , space shuttle DG's, Old Fudd's, not a professional army, OR we have no respect for those that served after us, couldn't be more wrong. We're faithful, loyal and have laid a path soaked with our blood & guts for generations who fought in post Vietnam wars would have a leg up. Yea I said that

Amen Brother. Hats of and much respect and thanks due, to all who fought for old Glory, before and after us and for those still fighting today, who now protect us.

 

[Rat187]

Well said...

 

[M60]

Uggg.. the vietnamwar over like 40 years ago, you guys fough hard and honorably,and most people not really mad over the whole thing.all that is in the past, let it go.from what i understand is that it cost soo much money to keep the war going that the us goverment have to cut cost and end the war.

Lol. You didn't fight with us, on our side anyway, but feel you are qualified, to tell us what to do and how to handle it. Not to mention that you call yourself freakin vc man. Not likely I'll be taking any advice from you there, vc man. You further say it cost to much to keep the conflict, not war going and the U.S. government had to cut cost and end the conflict, not war, substantiating that you know absolutely nothing about the subject. Do you really believe that different conflicts/wars cost less? That has never been the reason for this country to say yes or no to a conflict/war, but maybe we should get together and kick things around, a lot. I'm available at your pleasure.

 

[clampett]

Uggg.. the vietnamwar over like 40 years ago, you guys fough hard and honorably,and most people not really mad over the whole thing.all that is in the past, let it go.from what i understand is that it cost soo much money to keep the war going that the us goverment have to cut cost and end the war.

I'm curious about your screen name. Were you with the viet cong?

 

[vcman]

I'm curious about your screen name. Were you with the viet cong?

nope , i was born in 78 , got nothing to do with the war . one time i was shooting my sks at gunrange and dress in all blk clothing , friends said i look like a vc ... so the name stuck .i heard a few war stories from older members of my family, not something that i want to wish on anyones.

 

[Skysoldier]

I never saw a time when a chopper wouldn't land on a Hot LZ.....

Unless, of course, it was the Commanders chopper!

 

[M60]

I never saw a time when a chopper wouldn't land on a Hot LZ.....

Unless, of course, it was the Commanders chopper!

I can only speak from own experience Kim. My chopper rides into a hot LZ's, always resulted in a jump. I thought everbody's did. I believe Rat 187 recently posted a painting here of this method, of exiting a chopper. It's more like a hover or tilt at a angle and you jump out fast, so as not to keep the chopper in harms way any longer than possible. It's got to be a pretty crappy job, to be a chopper pilot or crew member and just be suspended there, like a sitting duck until the last guy jumps. It must feel like forever under fire. Then again, if the chopper isn't taking fire, the LZ isn't hot .

 

[M60]

nope , i was born in 78 , got nothing to do with the war . one time i was shooting my sks at gunrange and dress in all blk clothing , friends said i look like a vc ... so the name stuck .i heard a few war stories from older members of my family, not something that i want to wish on anyones.

Which side were they on?

 

[Rat187]

Which side were they on?

I'll hazard a guess, which ever side that had a gun in your face. Bic ?

 

[Skysoldier]

I can only speak from own experience Kim. My chopper rides into a hot LZ's, always resulted in a jump. I thought everbody's did. I believe Rat 187 recently posted a painting here of this method, of exiting a chopper. It's more like a hover or tilt at a angle and you jump out fast, so as not to keep the chopper in harms way any longer than possible. It's got to be a pretty crappy job, to be a chopper pilot or crew member and just be suspended there, like a sitting duck until the last guy jumps. It must feel like forever under fire. Then again, if the chopper isn't taking fire, the LZ isn't hot .

I guess I should have been more explicit......when I say "landing" I always think of hovering about 4 feet off the ground.....all of us grunt know they never actually "land".....

 

[M60]

I guess I should have been more explicit......when I say "landing" I always think of hovering about 4 feet off the ground.....all of us grunt know they never actually "land".....

And those drops suck when you're dropped in 6' tall elephant grass. That's when you realize you've just become a member of the fukawi tribe.

 

[Navy Moose]

Hey Guys,

My wife is from Vietnam. I strongly recommend visiting Hoi An, Da Nang, Hue, and Ha Long Bay. All have great places to see.

My body got used to the water after about a week. The street markets have great food. Oranges look weird, they have a green armor plating on them.

I was with my in-laws just about all the time and never had any tourist type issues.

Mr.Negative told me about this thread and I decided to make it my comeback to NES.

 

[Darksideblues42]

Having spent a weekend in Vietnam as part of a layover, don't miss out on a bánh mì thịt nướng (BBQ pork sandwich) it is damn near a must eat, along with actual Pho for breakfast!

 

[Rat187]

And those drops suck when you're dropped in 6' tall elephant grass. That's when you realize you've just become a member of the fukawi tribe.

IIRC, Sky and You were laggered up in the Hills/Rock piles of I Corps. A drop from that height with 70+ lbs of gear in southern III or IV Corps, you would have unintentionally joined the 'mudskipper' tribe. Believe me, I've seen Fukawi's dropped in the elephant grass, no fun....
but joining the Mudskipper tribe would kill you before the VC's could click the safety's off on their Alpha Kilo's

Great thread

 

[M60]

IIRC, Sky and You were laggered up in the Hills/Rock piles of I Corps. A drop from that height with 70+ lbs of gear in southern III or IV Corps, you would have unintentionally joined the 'mudskipper' tribe. Believe me, I've seen Fukawi's dropped in the elephant grass, no fun....
but joining the Mudskipper tribe would kill you before the VC's could click the safety's off on their Alpha Kilo's

Great thread

Glad I never got that far south. To get to my area you'd hop a convoy north, hang a left, north of Dong Ha and head north west, pass the Rock Pile and continue up to LZ Stud, later on, also called Vandergriff Combat Base. LZ Stud was the northern most supply base in south Vietnam. Supplies from LZ Stud were choppered out to the hills. From LZ Stud it was a chopper ride to the hills along the DMZ. It was Mountain Yard country, but the area was relatively active, so most of the Mountain Yards had moved out, favoring safer places to live.

 

[308rifleman]

Going there for a visit to both see a bit of the country and learn a bit of the language at the Saigon Language school. I'll check out the Reunification Palace, Notre Dame, old post office, Mekong Delta, Chinatown, Japantown, military relics, and maybe a few museums and several bars. Any advice/ suggestions? I know we've been at peace and trade with VN for quite a while, and I also know that many guys left their bodies and souls there. Thanks!

If you want to vacation Third World style, just go south to Mexico. Nice beaches, but be careful of contaminated liquor in bars. Buy bottled beer instead. My wife has an uncle in Canada who was a resident alien here and moved back in the late 1960s after failing to report for his physical and induction for military service in Vietnam. He probably still has an NCIC arrest warrant floating around in FBI computers, even after all of these decades!

 

[doxdsgn]

Sorry didn't include this in the original post. You can go to the New World Hotel casino. Small compared to US casinos, but they say it's OK. If you get bored there, can go next door to the Cat Walk (hostess bar, very $$$.) Cost about $50 USD for a drink and tip to waitress. If you are looking for souvenirs to bring back, can go to Saigon Square. If the weather is nice there are a bunch of rooftop bars to have a drink at or can walk over to back packer district to watch people. Cheap beer and food in that area.