Help understanding buying old guns (WWII or Vietnam)

[Thinking]

Hi all
I’m wondering if somebody can school me (or give me some worthwhile links to check out) around getting older pistols or rifles.
I would love to buy something that would have been used during WWII or Vietnam. Out of these two conflicts, if I had my choice of any weapon, I’d love to get a sidearm used by an Army solider during Vietnam. I assume it’s a 1911 of some kind.
By “used” I mean assigned to a soldier Who would’ve carried it during his time. I live in MA and have an LTC.
I’ve been a reader of this forum for a number of years and have seen you guys talk about C&R licenses. Is that something I’d need? Am I living in a dreamland thinking it might be possible to get something like this?

Thanks in advance

 

[Waher]

CMP 1911s (issued surplus) won't be available to MA LTC and C&R license holders until after 2021-2(can not remember the exact year) when the 2014 legislated collector exemption buying from MA commercial ffls takes effect.

Otherwise you would need to acquire by private sale c&r to c&r and file an efa-10.

 

[Thinking]

CMP 1911s (issued surplus) won't be available to MA LTC and C&R license holders until after 2021-2(can not remember the exact year) when the 2014 legislated collector exemption buying from MA commercial ffls takes effect.

Otherwise you would need to acquire by private sale c&r to c&r and file an efa-10.

So I would need a separate c&r license then? An LTC won’t supersede it?

 

[42!]

C&R is a Federal Firearms License, essentially a Fed collector's license. It does not eliminate the requirement for an LTC/FID, those are State licenses. The main advantage to the C&R is that you can directly buy/sell/ship qualified firearms without going through a local dealer. You should do some research on this, as the C&R has limits to what is qualified. The C&R does not, in any way, supersede an LTC.

 

[Picton]

So I would need a separate c&r license then? An LTC won’t supersede it?

As it stands right now, a C&R would be most useful to you for an out-of-state purchase. The M1911 was the Vietnam-era sidearm, and an example with .gov provenance will cost a bit. If you find one in MA, great; just buy it.

But if you find one out of state, you’ll either need to transfer it in via a dealer or you’ll need to get a C&R. Which is a good idea anyway; it’s cheap, simple, and gives you options, though it’ll start hurting your credit card once you discover deals on SKSs and stuff.

 

[LLF]

You should get a C&R license if you are interested in acquiring 50+ year old firearms. As 42! states you will be able to collect qualifying firearms without going through a dealer. Most dealers also require a C&R if you purchase a qualifying firearm from them (for example, a dealer selling a WWII Luger will only transfer to a C&R license holder). You must, as 42! points out, obviously have a valid Mass. LTC / FID.

 

[Picton]

Most dealers also require a C&R if you purchase a qualifying firearm from them (for example, a dealer selling a WWII Luger will only transfer to a C&R license holder).

This has not been my experience at all for in-state purchases, though I’m sure it does happen.

 

[LLF]

This has not been my experience at all for in-state purchases, though I’m sure it does happen.

I have bought C&R guns at Four Seasons and Pack & Post and I had to have a C&R for every purchase. Just my experience.

 

[Picton]

I have bought C&R guns at Four Seasons and Pack & Post and I had to have a C&R for every purchase. Just my experience.

...might want to call ahead, OP.

Or? Just get a C&R.

 

[Garys]

EVERY SHOOTER Should Get a C&R FFL!

3/6/14 - Please see Post # 1940 for latest links (seems that they change them annually)! http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/104-EVERY-SHOOTER-Should-Get-a-C-amp-R-FFL!?p=3785674&viewfull=1#post3785674 ------------------------------------- 1/25/2011 - I am modifying this post...

www.northeastshooters.com

 

[citoriguy]

The C&R is cheap and good for 3 years. It was a no brainer for me as I’m looking to collect primarily WWI &WWII arms.

 

[gerrycaruso]

Get a C&R and go to Pack&Postal 210 Mill St Lancaster. He has lots of neat stuff but much of it is not Ma compliant. That's where the C&R is necessary.

 

[whacko]

Hi all
I’m wondering if somebody can school me (or give me some worthwhile links to check out) around getting older pistols or rifles.
I would love to buy something that would have been used during WWII or Vietnam. Out of these two conflicts, if I had my choice of any weapon, I’d love to get a sidearm used by an Army solider during Vietnam. I assume it’s a 1911 of some kind.
By “used” I mean assigned to a soldier Who would’ve carried it during his time. I live in MA and have an LTC.
I’ve been a reader of this forum for a number of years and have seen you guys talk about C&R licenses. Is that something I’d need? Am I living in a dreamland thinking it might be possible to get something like this?

Thanks in advance

Just so you know....there is no 100% way to prove a misurp fire arm was issued and carried during war....let alone used in actual combat. A plethora of 1911 m1 garands etc.....were issued to service members even during a time of war that never left the USA.

I'll get flamed.....but the milsurp 1911 from cmp are going to be overpriced for what you'll get. Just my 2 cents.

I'm a 25 year army vet.....2 combat deployments......I'll never buy a cmp 1911. Those 1911s we turned in back in the 1980s were all worn out.

 

[Waher]

So I would need a separate c&r license then? An LTC won’t supersede it?

You'll need a separate C&R license for out of state for C&R purchases which still need to be reported in MA with the EFA-10 system. In MA a C&R license will allow you to purchase C&R handguns not on the EOPS roster from a commercial dealer in another year or so when the collectors exemption added in the 2014 MA gun law changes finally takes effect. Otherwise you are limited to purchasing from the limited 4 private sales from another LTC holder a year unless the C&R pistol has paperwork indicating it was present in MA prior to 1998.

The C&R is a federal license and you still need to comply with state law. Read the entire:

EVERY SHOOTER Should Get a C&R FFL!

3/6/14 - Please see Post # 1940 for latest links (seems that they change them annually)! http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/104-EVERY-SHOOTER-Should-Get-a-C-amp-R-FFL!?p=3785674&viewfull=1#post3785674 ------------------------------------- 1/25/2011 - I am modifying this post...

www.northeastshooters.com

thread to understand.

 

[Deleted member 67409]

Licensing aside, watch this two-hour long video:

 

[308rifleman]

Hi all
I’m wondering if somebody can school me (or give me some worthwhile links to check out) around getting older pistols or rifles.
I would love to buy something that would have been used during WWII or Vietnam. Out of these two conflicts, if I had my choice of any weapon, I’d love to get a sidearm used by an Army solider during Vietnam. I assume it’s a 1911 of some kind.
By “used” I mean assigned to a soldier Who would’ve carried it during his time. I live in MA and have an LTC.
I’ve been a reader of this forum for a number of years and have seen you guys talk about C&R licenses. Is that something I’d need? Am I living in a dreamland thinking it might be possible to get something like this?

Thanks in advance

Be very careful! Make damned sure that the firearm for sale is not stolen. I know a collector who has what he claims is a legitimate M1A. Upon examining it, I found out that it is a real TRW contract-made M14 that had the giggle-switch removed at some point. He claims legal-beagal. I told him Fed prison bait if caught. Like other morons in my life, I simply advise and stand back. Their ass will be sacrificed to ATF and the US Attorney's Office, not mine!

 

[Picton]

Just so you know....there is no 100% way to prove a misurp fire arm was issued and carried during war....let alone used in actual combat.

I wasn't going to bring that up, but it's 100% accurate.

Lots of folks get into milsurps thinking they'll establish some bond between a war weapon and the person who shot it. The reality is that unless you're buying an engraved private-purchase Webley or something, AND have access to the archives at Kew Gardens, that sort of quest is HIGHLY unlikely to lead anywhere.

 

[Deleted member 67409]

I wasn't going to bring that up, but it's 100% accurate.

Lots of folks get into milsurps thinking they'll establish some bond between a war weapon and the person who shot it. The reality is that unless you're buying an engraved private-purchase Webley or something, AND have access to the archives at Kew Gardens, that sort of quest is HIGHLY unlikely to lead anywhere.

Another thing: most of the wear on military guns comes from drill and handling. OP mentioned Vietnam. During the Vietnam era, 9,087,000 people served in the US military, but only 2,709,918 Americans were actually in Vietnam.

Vietnam Statistics | US War Dog Association | National Headquarters

So if OP bought say a 1945 1911A1, there wouldn't be a way to prove if the pistol he bought was in Vietnam, Okinawa, or Quonset Point. Except for massive logistic nightmares like WW1 where guns simply got destroyed via attrition, most wear on military weapons doesn't come from actual combat use. Example: K31s can have rough stocks but Switzerland hasn't fought a war since 1848.

There really aren't that many US guns available on the commercial market that definitively could've been used in Vietnam assuming OP isn't interested in full autos like an actual M14 or M16/M16A1. There's the 1911s, M1 carbines, S&W M13 revolvers, and K-38s/Model 15s. I have no idea if Garands that got "loaned" to ARVN would be available here in the US. Edit: could also get an Aussie L1A1 clone...

 

[drgrant]

I'll get flamed.....but the milsurp 1911 from cmp are going to be overpriced for what you'll get. Just my 2 cents.

This, if you really want a WWII M1911 just go on the open market and buy the damned thing, fiddling around with a limited amount of CMP guns is going to be a waste of
time.

-Mike

 

[Thinking]

This, if you really want a WWII M1911 just go on the open market and buy the damned thing, fiddling around with a limited amount of CMP guns is going to be a waste of
time.

-Mike

Mike, I always enjoy reading what you have to say.
I’m digesting much of the very helpful advice in this thread, thanks all.
Mike can you elaborate on your post? This aspect of guns is all new to me and I’m not following what you’re saying

 

[Picton]

Mike, I always enjoy reading what you have to say.
I’m digesting much of the very helpful advice in this thread, thanks all.
Mike can you elaborate on your post? This aspect of guns is all new to me and I’m not following what you’re saying

Eventually the CMP guns might be available here in MA, probably for... I dunno, maybe a thousand? They'll be reconditioned, shot-out mixmasters in wholly nonoriginal condition, similar to what @whacko mentions in Post 13: the really good examples will be auctioned, probably to people in free states, while whatever ends up here is likely to be... well, a shot-out mixmaster.

But it WILL be a "genuine US-issue M1911." For what that's worth. A shooter, in other words, though with all the quirks of an early twentieth-century platform past the end of its service life. To get it, there are hoops the CMP makes you jump through that you may or may not wish to clear.

The easier way is undoubtedly just to find a complete example, pay the premium, and take it home.

 

[whacko]

Mike, I always enjoy reading what you have to say.
I’m digesting much of the very helpful advice in this thread, thanks all.
Mike can you elaborate on your post? This aspect of guns is all new to me and I’m not following what you’re saying

He's saying there is a fair amount of government 1911 out there on the open market (not using cmp). The hoops you'll have to clear for a cmp 1911 will be plenty.....and you'll get a mix master sloppy 1911 with tiny ass sights that they came with. If you want a gi 1911 you may want to just shop around ad gun shops or online and buy one for the premium you'll pay.

I'll add ......a gi 1911 is gonna cost you as much or probably more than a decent built modern 1911 like sig, s and w, Colt etc....and you'll get a 1911 that has useful sights......is new.....and will be a great shooter. The last 1911s I was shooting in the army way back in the day were absolutely worn the f*** out. The smithing that cmp will probably do won't bring these guns back to a tight fitting quality 1911.

 

[Picton]

I've told this story before, but my first gun was an Auto-Ordnance 1911A1 clone I bought around 1995 or so, and I held onto it until around 2002? 3? Anyway, it was made to WWII military specs, complete with the parkerizing and the useless sights, but I just liked it because it looked like the real deal for, at the time, maybe $250? I don't remember.

I brought it out to the range one day while my platoon was shooting M9s at Ft Bragg, mostly to kill time and because I could. I also brought my G21, and my platoon sergeant and NCOs and I enjoyed blasting a few rounds while the guys were reloading Beretta mags. I post-date the 1911 as an issue piece, and I normally drew a rifle anyway, so I didn't get to shoot pistols much.

My platoon sergeant took a look at my 1911. He'd enlisted into the Berlin Brigade during the '80s, and said it looked like something he'd have been issued back then. I remember that after sustained strings of fire, the gun often didn't quite go back into battery, and he nodded sagely. "Yup," he said. "Just like the real thing. Just whack the back of the slide, sir; that's what we always had to do to 'em." He seemed perfectly okay with the idea that his '80s SD weapon while on duty at Checkpoint Charlie had been, by NES Glockboi LEGO-gun polished-slide standards, a piece of shit.

 

[Thinking]

For everybody who replied, thank you all. I’ve got a much better place where to start. Thank you! You guys are great.

 

[enbloc]

RedLeaf, If you are lucky enough to find a rifle or pistol that has seen combat action in the hands of an American Soldier, Sailor or Marine; a firearm that saved the lives of his Brothers-In-Arms
and may have been present at his Last Measure of Devotion, just remember...

It is not just a gun.

You will never "Own" it. You will only be its current "Caretaker"...

Cherish it and act accordingly.
~Enbloc

 

[daekken]

RedLeaf, If you are lucky enough to find a rifle or pistol that has seen combat action in the hands of an American Soldier, Sailor or Marine; a firearm that saved the lives of his Brothers-In-Arms
and may have been present at his Last Measure of Devotion, just remember...

It is not just a gun.

You will never "Own" it. You will only be its current "Caretaker"...

Cherish it and act accordingly.
~Enbloc

This is how I've cared for mine:



You wish you had an underfolder M1:

 

[PatMcD]

Any 1911a1 used or carried in-country VN would more than likely already been through an arsenal re-hab from WWII. It'd be highly unlikely that there would be all-matching pistols over there. Hence, any pistol from the CMP is probably exactly what may have been used in VN. No easy way to verify it, though.

 

[whacko]

I've told this story before, but my first gun was an Auto-Ordnance 1911A1 clone I bought around 1995 or so, and I held onto it until around 2002? 3? Anyway, it was made to WWII military specs, complete with the parkerizing and the useless sights, but I just liked it because it looked like the real deal for, at the time, maybe $250? I don't remember.

I brought it out to the range one day while my platoon was shooting M9s at Ft Bragg, mostly to kill time and because I could. I also brought my G21, and my platoon sergeant and NCOs and I enjoyed blasting a few rounds while the guys were reloading Beretta mags. I post-date the 1911 as an issue piece, and I normally drew a rifle anyway, so I didn't get to shoot pistols much.

My platoon sergeant took a look at my 1911. He'd enlisted into the Berlin Brigade during the '80s, and said it looked like something he'd have been issued back then. I remember that after sustained strings of fire, the gun often didn't quite go back into battery, and he nodded sagely. "Yup," he said. "Just like the real thing. Just whack the back of the slide, sir; that's what we always had to do to 'em." He seemed perfectly okay with the idea that his '80s SD weapon while on duty at Checkpoint Charlie had been, by NES Glockboi LEGO-gun polished-slide standards, a piece of shit.

My 1911 when I was an m60 Gunner was so loose it rattled like hell if you shook it. Never malfunctioned though......just not the most accurate handgun. But at 25 feet it would have done the job.

 

[Picton]

My 1911 when I was an m60 Gunner was so loose it rattled like hell if you shook it. Never malfunctioned though......just not the most accurate handgun. But at 25 feet it would have done the job.

...unless you brought it here in an NGD thread. Because hammer-fired. And not polymer. And nonadjustable trigger. And heavens! how can you have confidence in a firearm without a rail????

 

[whacko]

...unless you brought it here in an NGD thread. Because hammer-fired. And not polymer. And nonadjustable trigger. And heavens! how can you have confidence in a firearm without a rail????

Well im actually a fan of the 1911....just not worn out ones with tiny useless sights.