LTC holder uses gun for self defense in Quincy, has LTC/gun(s) seized.

[drgrant]

OK, so we are working on the assumption that he will never get his LTC or guns back, ever....
I didn't know that there was already an ending to this story, some of you guys seem to already know that his LTC and guns are gone forever.

Im pretty sure the guy will get back his LTC and guns if cleared of any wrong doing. And as I stated above, I don't agree with it.

In MA courts the entire system takes a very dim view of road rage and all involved are treated like shit by default- particularly if someone is a peon and not a LEO or someone with a lot of political connections/clout.

Also a shitty CLEO can easily argue "Well, acquitted or not he was still involved in a road rage incident, escalated, and then introduced a firearm into it, which means that he's fundamentally unsuitable". There's a pejorative in legal circles WRT road rage where people will subonciously blame both parties involved unless strong evidence shows that one party attempted to deescalate etc.

There's a memetic/mind virus problem with road rage- in the respect that these incidents are stereotyped; because 99 out of 100 times when you see a road rage incident, there are two dickheads going at it in public and nobody deescalates. So it is trivial for people to adopt the default viewpoint that road rage doesn't really have victims; but instead has mutual combatants.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

Defensive gun user should have been the one to call 911. Always, always, always.

He might not have had the chance, frankly.

-Mike

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

Defensive gun user should have been the one to call 911. Always, always, always.

Or make like a tree and get out of there.

 

[jhblaze1]

In MA courts the entire system takes a very dim view of road rage and all involved are treated like shit by default- particularly if someone is a peon and not a LEO or someone with a lot of political connections/clout.

Also a shitty CLEO can easily argue "Well, acquitted or not he was still involved in a road rage incident, escalated, and then introduced a firearm into it, which means that he's fundamentally unsuitable". There's a pejorative in legal circles WRT road rage where people will subonciously blame both parties involved unless strong evidence shows that one party attempted to deescalate etc.

There's a memetic/mind virus problem with road rage- in the respect that these incidents are stereotyped; because 99 out of 100 times when you see a road rage incident, there are two dickheads going at it in public and nobody deescalates. So it is trivial for people to adopt the default viewpoint that road rage doesn't really have victims; but instead has mutual combatants.

-Mike

but it's ok if cops road rage on people, like say when they almost run someone over in a crosswalk and the victim taps the window with an ubmrella...in such cases it's perfectly reasonable for a road raging lunatic cop to get out, body slam someone, and threaten to kill him. Then arrest and charge him.

LOL I hate this state so much.

 

[Gak44]

no way. Pick up brass, walk away whistling. If it ain't on camera, it didn't happen.

This is your best bet in this commie state if you have to defend yourself.

 

[Dadstoys]

Massachusetts, where you get victimized twice.
And no , he's never getting the guns back.
He'll be dead broke and happy just to not be in jail when it's over.

 

[StevieP]

*He* shouldn't have to pay for the bonded warehouse fees. Period. Assuming he's found not guilty of any crimes.

(jmho. in this state, he likely WILL have to pay.)

 

[Rob Boudrie]

*He* shouldn't have to pay for the bonded warehouse fees. Period. Assuming he's found not guilty of any crimes.

The federal court has effectively rules a bonded warehouse can charge whatever fees it wants, and impose whatever conditions it wishes.

EVERY gun owner needs an advance plan in case of confiscation (never think it can't happen to you) - specifically a dealer who will quickly take possession of guns from the PD before the theftmobile arrives, even if the PD calls and tells Dowd to "hurry up".

 

[VetteGirlMA]

I can never understand road rage. I mean someone cuts someone off or follows too close or passes, etc. I get all kinds of crap in the sports cars, and I don't ever feel a need to explode. Maybe it's because I have to sit in traffic every day I have just come to terms with it. Even the day I had an accident in my Chrysler 200 a few months ago, I had let maybe 6 or 8 cars cut in front of me until I said okay enough, and moments later ended up rear ending someone. No one, not me or the other guy, got mad. I apologized. I said I was at fault, and left it at that. I gave him my info, he took mine and we all left the scene.

Years ago I worked at a consulting company and was having lunch with one of the principals of the company. After lunch we were walking back to the car and the guy in the next car over in the parking lot wasn't paying attention and slammed his door into the other guys car door. He looks at me called me a dumb f*en c**t. Needless to say it set off my coworker who started yelling at the other guy. The other guy hops in his car, my coworker says quick get in the car, and he takes off after the other guy driving around 75mph through an industrial park. I was pi**ed because I didn't want to be part of an argument and a fight. He finally gave up after a few minutes, but it was starting to get hairy driving around like that. Road rage like that is an ugly thing.

 

[Da_lucche]

The federal court has effectively rules a bonded warehouse can charge whatever fees it wants, and impose whatever conditions it wishes.

EVERY gun owner needs an advance plan in case of confiscation (never think it can't happen to you) - specifically a dealer who will quickly take possession of guns from the PD before the theftmobile arrives, even if the PD calls and tells Dowd to "hurry up".

Would a family member with an LTC suffice? Probably ok for Title 1 firearms but I'd guess non trust Title 2 firearms would be tricky.

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[slap shot]

His only mistake is missing. Without a victim, no proof there was any type of altercation.

Are the po po saying he was just popping off like cinco de mayo in the streets of tijuana?

 

[Lank]

but it's ok if cops road rage on people, like say when they almost run someone over in a crosswalk and the victim taps the window with an ubmrella...in such cases it's perfectly reasonable for a road raging lunatic cop to get out, body slam someone, and threaten to kill him. Then arrest and charge him.

LOL I hate this state so much.

Like that psychopath in Medford....

 

[Len-2A Training]

Would a family member with an LTC suffice? Probably ok for Title 1 firearms but I'd guess non trust Title 2 firearms would be tricky.

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Once the bonded warehouse gets them the fees are usually up close to $1K for a very small collection. Thus, he'll never have to pay the fees, he'll merely never get the guns back and the bonded warehouse gets new, FREE stock to sell after 3 months (as called out in MGL).

 

[Da_lucche]

Once the bonded warehouse gets them the fees are usually up close to $1K for a very small collection. Thus, he'll never have to pay the fees, he'll merely never get the guns back and the bonded warehouse gets new, FREE stock to sell after 3 months (as called out in MGL).

Unless it is all smoke and mirrors, Village Vault's terms dont seem as nefarious as I've read. Mentions any firearm can be transferred to a properly licensed individual for $20 per transfer.
http://www.villagevault.com/terms.shtml

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[SpaceCritter]

Once the bonded warehouse gets them the fees are usually up close to $1K for a very small collection. Thus, he'll never have to pay the fees, he'll merely never get the guns back and the bonded warehouse gets new, FREE stock to sell after 3 months (as called out in MGL).

I'm still utterly baffled how any of this even remotely passes Constitutional muster. Then again, I'm baffled as to how "suitability" isn't textbook Arbitrary and Capricious.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I'm still utterly baffled how any of this even remotely passes Constitutional muster. Then again, I'm baffled as to how "suitability" isn't textbook Arbitrary and Capricious.

The constitution is void where prohibited by law.

 

[SpaceCritter]

The constitution is void where prohibited by law.

Jeezus, even here in the Constipation State, that shit wouldn't fly.

 

[JohnZ]

Does he get the expiration date adjusted for the time he was missing his second amendment rights? Does he get a prorated refund of his $100 fee?

 

[EC1]

The gun used is confiscated as evidence. All other guns can be shipped off to a bonded warehouse and my bet is that this is exactly what will happen. With the way bonded warehouses in MA work, he'll never see his guns again or he'll drain his bank account to get them back and not be able to pay a lawyer to defend himself.

Whether or not a chief will return the LTC is a crap-shoot, but the fact that he never reported the incident and the report was by a 3rd party makes him very unlikely to be deemed "suitable" for return of his LTC. In this regard, he screwed himself.

Len, if we assume for the moment that they find he was justified and drop everything and return his LTC, is there any recourse to sue the police/state/COP to cover the costs of reclaiming his property (guns et al) from a bonded warehouse?
If not, doesn't this become a constitutional case of asset forfeiture without due process or redress?

 

[amm5061]

Does he get the expiration date adjusted for the time he was missing his second amendment rights? Does he get a prorated refund of his $100 fee?

No, and no, but he does get a free ride straight into crippling debt.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Jeezus, even here in the Constipation State, that shit wouldn't fly.

But it does. Just look at Chardin, in which the SJC held that constitutional protections do not apply to an "administrative burden" such a denial or an LTC, even if such administrative burdens would be considered cruel and unusual if they were "punitive" in nature.

is there any recourse to sue the police/state/COP to cover the costs of reclaiming his property (guns et al) from a bonded warehouse?

No, because the warehouse performed a "service"*. This is like when your car is stolen, recovered by the police and towed - you still owe the tow fee despite your complete absence of any fault on your part.

You might have a case if you formally notified the PD you had your dealer on the way to make a prompt pickup of your property and did not wish it to go to a bonded warehouse. That would be "iffy" in federal court (at least until Trump gets a chance to appoint a few judges) and an automatic rejection from the MA SJC (under the "but its guns" doctrine).

* - Which, in reality, is a "Service" in the same wan a bull "services" a cow.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Unless it is all smoke and mirrors, Village Vault's terms dont seem as nefarious as I've read. Mentions any firearm can be transferred to a properly licensed individual for $20 per transfer.
http://www.villagevault.com/terms.shtml

Unless VV changed their policies after Comm2A sued (and lost) Jarvis v. Village Vault . . . read the case on Comm2A.org it laid out the fee structure and it is onerous.

They only allowed you to pay ALL fees and claim all items or you got nothing.

Does he get the expiration date adjusted for the time he was missing his second amendment rights? Does he get a prorated refund of his $100 fee?

The LTC is really free in MA. You pay the $100 as an APPLICATION FEE. Thus, if denied, suspended, revoked, etc. you have no claim for any refunds.

Len, if we assume for the moment that they find he was justified and drop everything and return his LTC, is there any recourse to sue the police/state/COP to cover the costs of reclaiming his property (guns et al) from a bonded warehouse?
If not, doesn't this become a constitutional case of asset forfeiture without due process or redress?

See Jarvis v. Village Vault on Comm2A.org. Court ruled that this is perfectly legal and you have no due process. As Rob puts it "the Constitution is void where prohibited by law" . . . meaning the Constitution is not applicable in Mass.

 

[TheTrueQuaid]

The federal court has effectively rules a bonded warehouse can charge whatever fees it wants, and impose whatever conditions it wishes.

EVERY gun owner needs an advance plan in case of confiscation (never think it can't happen to you) - specifically a dealer who will quickly take possession of guns from the PD before the theftmobile arrives, even if the PD calls and tells Dowd to "hurry up".

Is there any legal ramifications for doing this? I mean if your getting jammed up wouldn't they accompany you to your domicile to take possession of your guns? Do they have any legal authority to demand the guns and would you even have time to give them to another LTC holder or store them out of state?

 

[Fixxah]

VV just got a cha ching.

 

[Fixxah]

I will render a verdict when the news tells me what really happened.

 

[EC1]

See Jarvis v. Village Vault on Comm2A.org. Court ruled that this is perfectly legal and you have no due process. As Rob puts it "the Constitution is void where prohibited by law" . . . meaning the Constitution is not applicable in Mass.

they exonerate the warehouse and the secretary in her Official Capacity as Secretary of the Massachusetts executive Office of Public Safety and Security; But I didn't see if the police could be sued for recompense for costs for retrieval of the illegally confiscated goods.

 

[SpaceCritter]

But it does. Just look at Chardin, in which the SJC held that constitutional protections do not apply to an "administrative burden" such a denial or an LTC, even if such administrative burdens would be considered cruel and unusual if they were "punitive" in nature.

...then Massatwoshits needs to get removed from the Union as no longer playing by its rules. I'm in favor. Anyone to second?

 

[Chevy 2 65]

...then Massatwoshits needs to get removed from the Union as no longer playing by its rules. I'm in favor. Anyone to second?

2nd. Great now I need to pack !

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Unless it is all smoke and mirrors, Village Vault's terms dont seem as nefarious as I've read. Mentions any firearm can be transferred to a properly licensed individual for $20 per transfer.

Read the entire fee structure. There is a fee for checking the gun in. Another fee for checking the gun out. A third fee for transferring the gun so someone other than the person it was confiscated from. A daily fee (which would be over $500 a month for my modest collection). Plus, you can be stuck in "fee accrual mode" for weeks if the warehouse keeper is traveling or on vacation. Oh, and your ammo and magazines crated up (I think they use milk crates) and each crate is billed as a gun.

The desire is not to collect "reasonable fee" but to seize the gun at no cost.

Is there any legal ramifications for doing this? I mean if your getting jammed up wouldn't they accompany you to your domicile to take possession of your guns? Do they have any legal authority to demand the guns and would you even have time to give them to another LTC holder or store them out of state?

When a confiscation order issued, you MUST surrender them to the police.

Except when they are in "revenge mode" for pissing them off, the police concern is "get these guns out of here, they are taking up space". The goal is to have your designated dealer at the PD, with your written release, before they have a chance to have the theftmobile swing by. I don't doubt that some PDs are vindictive "just because", but many will do a legal transfer if you make it easy for them. If you start saying things like "just hold onto the guns, I'll get a dealer hear some day soon" your chances go down compared to "my dealer will be here within the hour".

 

[Queen Bee]

i have two people from here on NES, that i would give my guns to incase of a defensive use.. immediately. never give it to a warehouse. my third option would be a gun store i shop at and they know me .

but in all honest , i just want to move out of this ****ing state and get up to maine