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LTC holder uses gun for self defense in Quincy, has LTC/gun(s) seized.
- Thread starter Mike S
- Start date
Should have just handed over the LTC, and shown them his "lifetime" FID when they asked about any guns beyond the one he'd been carrying.
Outdoor Channel's "The Best Defense" did an episode on this topic, said basically the same thing -- why lead somebody who is pissed at you to your home and family?
Just blow through the light -- you're trying to get police attention, right?
amm5061
NES Member
This is a valid concern. Also being trapped in traffic where you can't get out without hitting other cars/people.
bdb
NES Member
OK, so the advice is we should all have an emergency plan to have a friend or dealer pickup and hold your guns in some crazy event like the OP posted. So how many on this forum have a collection of guns and ammo that could not logistically be easily picked up and held by a friend.
So I have a letter giving permission and a buddy shows up at my house to collect my guns and ammo? Can he get there fast enough? How many here have a collection of ammo alone that cannot be transported easily due to the weight in most cars? Does said friend have enough storage capacity to handle a decent size gun collection along with ammo and legally store it at this house? I know I don't have the excess capacity to store my buddies collections if I needed to.
So what's the plan in this case, you arrange for the items you really really want to keep hold of and take your chances with the excess? Hell, I haven't even taken into account reloading supplies. Bullets, primers, powder, buckets and buckets of spent casings etc, they have to go too right?!
Serious question since the logistics on a sizable collection would be pretty tough. I don't have to worry much but many here I sure do.
So I have a letter giving permission and a buddy shows up at my house to collect my guns and ammo? Can he get there fast enough? How many here have a collection of ammo alone that cannot be transported easily due to the weight in most cars? Does said friend have enough storage capacity to handle a decent size gun collection along with ammo and legally store it at this house? I know I don't have the excess capacity to store my buddies collections if I needed to.
So what's the plan in this case, you arrange for the items you really really want to keep hold of and take your chances with the excess? Hell, I haven't even taken into account reloading supplies. Bullets, primers, powder, buckets and buckets of spent casings etc, they have to go too right?!
Serious question since the logistics on a sizable collection would be pretty tough. I don't have to worry much but many here I sure do.
![[slap]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/025.gif "Slap [slap]")
also a very good point
bdb
NES Member
Reading the whole thread it looks like the answer varies. On a restraining order, nope, if they are still in your name they have to go. Sounds to me (no expert) that there are cases where your LTC could be pulled therefore you cannot posses anything. Sounds to me in this case a buddy could hold things. Either way it's the same logistics question for the most part though I suppose a dealer would have a better chance of having the capacity to move and store a collection.
Chevy 2 65
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1. The problem is you are limited to 4 private transfers per year and, absent a transfer the PD is not going to accept "those guns are mine, but being help by someone else, so they do not need to be surrendered". Playing cute games will just get the system mad at you, and make it harder to come out "whole" at the end.
2. If the confiscation is 209A based, only a MA licensed dealer can take possession from the PD. Otherwise, any LTC holder can. In both cases, you must grant permission (except for the bonded warehouse)
3. Unless you smell a brewing domestic and plan ahead, there will be no time to arrange the transfer. Your best bet is having a dealer or LTC holder (if non 209A) at the PD *promptly* to pick up the guns. If available, it's worth paying Atty Langer to go with you.
4. No paperwork needed to move tubs of high caps, ammo and reloading components to a friends house if a domestic is brewing.
5. If your guns go to a bonded warehouse, pay whatever it takes immediately and it will probably be less than the value of the guns. Wait a year or so for your situation to resolve and chances are your equity will have disappeared. Remember, the courts have ruled the bonded warehouse can do whatever it wants so don't waste your time arguing, just bend over.
6. A confiscation order requires you surrender all guns and high cap mags. It is not a search warrant, and does not authorize the police to enter your home to effect collection. If they follow you home, do not consent to letting them enter. If they comply with the law, lock the door, pack up the guns, and bring them out cased and in a non-threatening manner. This will prevent a fishing expedition and also give you time to remove your scopes, bayonettes, lasers, etc.
7. Stripped lowers are not firearms under MA law but, once you have had a chance to contest a 209A in court, you also become a federally prohibited person (the federal prohibition does not kick in until you have a chance to watch the kangaroo hop) and that includes frames/lowers. Playing games like "I am going to keep my stripped AR15 lowers" is likely to fall into the category of PSGWSP.
8. Style points if you tell the PD "What? Only one cruiser? Not nearly enough room".
Contrary to what Len suggests, it is possible to get an LTC back after a 209A. Some departments have a "never without a court order" policy, whereas others have licensing officers who understand many 209As are tactical rather than protective in nature. But, even in the case of the later, your only chance is to follow the law precisely and not play any cute interpretive games. The system is as impressed by these as the IRS is by arguments like "Wages are not income so I do not owe any tax".
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Remembering that there are 351 towns in Mass, and 351 possible different scenarios, I'll detail a few of the differing procedures I've encountered:
1) LTC renewal was denied. Police come to home and take ALL firearms, ignoring that most are not owned by person denied renewal. Using FRB gun transaction portal, owner surrendered his guns to police and transferred to a licensed person. Printed out FA10s, but for some reason, one of the transfers didn't "take" in the system, so PD computer still showed "registered" to him. Transferee "registered" the gun, and the police were happy.
2) Police suspended LTC. He called police to arrange surrendering and transferring his firearms. Police replied "Your wife had an LTC - just leave them where they are".
3) Police suspended LTC. He called police to arrange surrendering and transferring his firearms. He asked if he could just transfer them to his wife. Police replied that if he did, they would suspend her LTC.
4) Police seized gun collection. After issue was cleared up, he went to get his collection back. One gun was missing, and owner was told "tough". Owner informed PD that he was FFL and that gun was on his books, so it's disappearance had to be reported to BATFE. Missing gun mysteriously reappeared.
1) LTC renewal was denied. Police come to home and take ALL firearms, ignoring that most are not owned by person denied renewal. Using FRB gun transaction portal, owner surrendered his guns to police and transferred to a licensed person. Printed out FA10s, but for some reason, one of the transfers didn't "take" in the system, so PD computer still showed "registered" to him. Transferee "registered" the gun, and the police were happy.
2) Police suspended LTC. He called police to arrange surrendering and transferring his firearms. Police replied "Your wife had an LTC - just leave them where they are".
3) Police suspended LTC. He called police to arrange surrendering and transferring his firearms. He asked if he could just transfer them to his wife. Police replied that if he did, they would suspend her LTC.
4) Police seized gun collection. After issue was cleared up, he went to get his collection back. One gun was missing, and owner was told "tough". Owner informed PD that he was FFL and that gun was on his books, so it's disappearance had to be reported to BATFE. Missing gun mysteriously reappeared.
That's $20 per gun, in addition to the $15 handling fee and $20 disposition fee per item (guns, magazines, gun parts, ammo, etc), so you're looking at $55 per gun right off the bat for just one gun and nothing else, plus a $45 administrative fee.
If all he had was one gun, two magazines and a box of ammo, it's going to cost him $205 to transfer it to someone else. If he actually had a nice collection, it can get very expensive very quickly.
ProGun
NES Member
Sadly, only real solution with many of these scenarios is move out of Mass. Not an option for everyone, but truly the best preventative medicine for this ****ed up system that is Massachusetts.
I belive thats what it comes down to. Or make sure there is no one around to say anything after the fact.
Everyone says to move out of state. That may help that individual, but as a whole I think it hurts gun ownership state of MA some what. Sure I could leave if I really wanted, but think about how happy MH and liberals would be knowing a gun owners got fed up and left. There aren't many of us here to begin with. Personally, even though the odds are against us I'd rather continue to seek change without moving to another state. No offense to those who left to free states. We all know how annoying this state is, but I'm going to tough it out.
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ProGun
NES Member
I hear you. FWIW, I will continue to support Comm2A and GOAL after I leave MA.
Take a look at the complaint in Jarvis v Village Vault http://comm2a.org/index.php/55-projects/104-jarvis
Here are the highlights:
28. When Defendant Village Vault receives firearms or ammunition, it immediately imposes fees of $15 per item for “handling” as well as a $45 charge for “administration.” However, Village Vault also requires the payment of a $20 per-item “disposition” or “transfer” fee to transfer firearms or ammunition from its custody
29. Village Vault requires an owner to pay all of its fees before recovering or transferring any particular item. A person may not choose to redeem only some items.
40. Shortly thereafter, State Police came to the Cheshire house and seized firearms, ammunition, and other items from the gun cabinet. Specifically, State Police seized 14 shotguns, 10 rifles, 3 handguns, and 2 containers of ammunition. Many of these firearms were family heirlooms. Russell Jarvis’s own father had given him many of the guns. The State Police also seized some items that are not “firearms” under Massachusetts law and are not subject to seizure, to wit, accessories like cases and scopes, 3 primitive (or “black powder”) weapons, and 2 air (or “BB”) guns. Most of these firearms and other items were the property Russell Jarvis.
45. Defendant Village Vault logged the firearms, ammunition, and other property as 34 separate items. Defendant Village Vault then immediately imposed a $15 “handling” fee for each item (a total of $510) as well as a $45 “administration” fee. Furthermore, Defendant Village Vault required a $20 per-item “registration” or “disposition” fee in order to secure the transfer of firearms and ammunition (a total of $680). Hence, fr om the moment that Defendant Village Vault received the items, Russell Jarvis and James Jarvis would have needed to pay a total of $1,225 to secure their return or transfer. This amount was 45.5% of the amount that Defendant Village Vault ultimately obtained for the items at auction.
Welp, that's always an option. Both sides benefit there, kill two birds with one stone. We continue to get help, you get freedom.
Chevy 2 65
NES Member
WOW !!!! Down right unconstitutional
That's happened more than a few times. Bonded warehouses in the past also were known to "lose" some guns and most/all mags.
Here's where it pays off to hold a C&R FFL. IANAL, but from my reading of the regs for ANY FFL, ANY gun lost/stolen/missing MUST be reported to a special BATFE 800 # and a form filed with BATFE within x hours of discovery that it went missing. It does not seem to matter if it was a C&R gun or not. Using that to one's advantage, when airlines or PDs are told of this by the victim, it's amazing how fast missing guns will mysteriously re-appear.
Chevy 2 65
NES Member
That place is owned by nothing more the brown coat pukes ! [h=1]Sturmabteilung[/h]
After shoveling shit against the tide for >40 yrs, some of us have tired and decided that escape is the only good solution.
Like you!
Life member of GOAL, donate monthly to Comm2A, have made legal arrangements that when both of us are gone, Comm2A gets all the guns and stuff that we have left to sell off and fund future lawsuits against the state.
amm5061
NES Member
Any gun on the books has to be reported, but what if it's not in the book? I had thought of a C&R being used for this purpose, but wasn't sure if non-C&R guns not in the book counted, too. Jack's 07 FFL incubator also makes good sense as a backup in this case, but that's a little pricier than a C&R.
I'm curious if there is a different course of action regarding Title 2 firearms; more specifically Form 1 SBRs.
If you're gonna be removing scopes and accessories, why not remove the entire upper and hand over just the registered lower? Unless you're posting pics all over social media, there's no way they would know if you've sold the unregistered uppers in past weeks.
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The form and rules for its use are at atf.gov. I read it some time ago, I didn't find that it only applied to C&R guns. Also I don't want my guns "on the street" (theft) so reporting to BATFE is something I would WANT to do. If they do nothing with the info, so be it, I've done my best to retrieve it and cause discomfort to the thieves so that is all good.
Jason Flare
NES Member
Bluff the police without lying. "Without looking at the fine print I believe I'm going to need to report this to BATFE. Can you give me specifics as to where the gun went missing? After I turned it in to Officer xxxxx where exactly did he place it and into whose custody did he consign it. Etc."
