Gun Safes

Moisture in Gun Safe.

I have a Champion Crown Series safe, which is a very-secure, well-built safe, with two Golden Rod dehumidifiers placed on the floor of the unit. The safe is situated on the first floor (as opposed to the basement or attic). The house is air conditioned and (I thought) dry. I’ve had this safe for about four years and have no problems with it. Until now. We’ve had wet weather for a few weeks, and I’ve begun to notice that a few of my guns have begun to show signs of surface rust. This has never happened before.

So I sprayed down every gun in the safe with preservative, and ran out and purchased a large canister of desiccant, rated to protect up to 60 cubic feet (my safe has a 50 cubic-foot interior). The canister has been in place for about two weeks. Tonight I noticed that the blue indicator beads had started to turn pink – a definite sign of moisture.

Naturally, I’m beginning to panic; there are a lot of guns in this safe.

I’ve called the manufacturer, but they could offer no explanation. The only possible cause I could determine is that the safe is completely airtight, being sealed with a rubber-like strip that runs around the inside edge of the door (this strip is designed to expand in case of fire to seal the safe from heat damage.

Because of this, no air can flow through the safe when the door is closed. As I understand it, the operational principle of the Golden Rods is to heat the air in the safe, which becomes dry and then rises and exits through the top edge of the door. This sucks in new air from the bottom, and creates a flow of dry air, theoretically preventing rust.

If, however, the safe door is sealed, air cannot flow, and any moisture is trapped inside the safe. This is my theory, anyway, and I’m considering removing the rubber-like strips to allow air to flow (of course the safe will no longer be as fire-resistant as it once was).

Has anyone in the forum ever heard of anything like this happening? And does anyone have any suggestions? Any informed advice would be greatly appreciated!
 
Sorry, no experience with that, and really thoughts other than that I'd be using bulk silicon kitty litter sewn into bags in plastic trays. (Cheap, effective, and changes color when it's absorbed all it can.)

I did see this safe buying guide which looked quite interesting, and figured I'd include it here since this appears the be the definitive safe thread here.

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunsafes.html
 
digitech said:
Just keep in mind the value of your collection when buying a safe. I have two safes but i also have pieces that are worth more than the combined cost of the safes (you know what happens when you add accessories to an already expensive firearm).

Champion Challenger CH-50 @ 1150 lbs. that i use for firearms and magazine storage but it is at capacity

Champion Victory V-25 @ 775 lbs. that i use for ammo and accessory storage and maybe firearms soon.

I bough the V-25 about 8 years ago and it was soon to capacity so i was spilling over to stack ons for my cheap stuff. Goes to show get the biggest you can afford or you will end up buying two. I think it cost me about $1800.00 delivered in place by Eastern Security Safe Company in Mendon, MA they deal in all varieties of safes and use motorized dollies and reinforce your floor with thick plywood sheets when they bring it in. They unwrap it put it in location after checking to make sure the floor will support it and level it before making sure you know how to operate it. Then they take all of the trash away when they leave. Point of note they never see your combo it is sealed in an envelope from the factory. They explain to you how to open it and turn their backs while you try it several times to make sure it works.I think the delivery was well worth it. But if you have to you can pick it up yourself or do curbside delivery.

I got the CH-25 earlier this year off a friend of mine who upgraded and i got a good deal on it, but it sells for about $2825.00 for in home delivery. Though it to came from Eastern Security Safe Company i opted to move it myself (with the help of four friends and allot of rigging gear of course) instead of paying them to move it again i think they quoted $800-$900 for the move. The Champion line is not as pretty as the Victory line but the security features are about the same. It was definitely dangerous to move by ourselves but we took our time and tried to keep safety in mind.
Click to expand...

Ammo storage in a safe, isn't that dangerous? You could be building a bomb.
 
vellnueve said:
Home Depot often has "executive" safes available. I personally think that Dicks is probably your best bet as most gun stores don't deliver.
Click to expand...

I took a look at a couple of Stack On safes at Dick's and was not impressed with the smaller one. I then went to Lowe's and found a Liberty "Centurion" model of the same size which appeared to be much more substantial. Has anyone had any experience with these safes?
 
Gammon said:
Ammo storage in a safe, isn't that dangerous? You could be building a bomb.
Click to expand...

that's a good point, so where would you recommend keeping it?

contest52.jpg
 
Boston Wrangler said:
I have a Champion Crown Series safe, which is a very-secure, well-built safe, with two Golden Rod dehumidifiers placed on the floor of the unit. The safe is situated on the first floor (as opposed to the basement or attic). The house is air conditioned and (I thought) dry. I’ve had this safe for about four years and have no problems with it. Until now. We’ve had wet weather for a few weeks, and I’ve begun to notice that a few of my guns have begun to show signs of surface rust. This has never happened before.

So I sprayed down every gun in the safe with preservative, and ran out and purchased a large canister of desiccant, rated to protect up to 60 cubic feet (my safe has a 50 cubic-foot interior). The canister has been in place for about two weeks. Tonight I noticed that the blue indicator beads had started to turn pink – a definite sign of moisture.

Naturally, I’m beginning to panic; there are a lot of guns in this safe.

I’ve called the manufacturer, but they could offer no explanation. The only possible cause I could determine is that the safe is completely airtight, being sealed with a rubber-like strip that runs around the inside edge of the door (this strip is designed to expand in case of fire to seal the safe from heat damage.

Because of this, no air can flow through the safe when the door is closed. As I understand it, the operational principle of the Golden Rods is to heat the air in the safe, which becomes dry and then rises and exits through the top edge of the door. This sucks in new air from the bottom, and creates a flow of dry air, theoretically preventing rust.

If, however, the safe door is sealed, air cannot flow, and any moisture is trapped inside the safe. This is my theory, anyway, and I’m considering removing the rubber-like strips to allow air to flow (of course the safe will no longer be as fire-resistant as it once was).

Has anyone in the forum ever heard of anything like this happening? And does anyone have any suggestions? Any informed advice would be greatly appreciated!
Click to expand...


It has been brutally humid lately with all of the rain and so forth. All the golden rod things do is heat the air and (hopefully) raise the temp in the safe enough (it's a closed environment) to keep the moisture from condensing.

What you really need is some way to remove the moisture along with having the golden rods. Which you did with the dessicant. Personally - I would just overdo it on the dessicant by a factor of 2 or 3 and see what happens before I started removing seals. In the really humid weather the dessicant will absorb faster and turn blue quicker - in the less humid weather it will go for months before needing to be recycled.
 
One other thing on the dessicant - I bought some of these:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productnumber=599066

And to mount them in the safe I put velcro on the back so I could just attach them to the safe lining. What I noticed was that some of them would get saturated quicker than others depending on where they were located.

Mounted high on the door seemed to be the spot where they saturated quickest. The golden rod I have is mounted on the floor near the door opening - so the heated air is rising right past where the dessicant modules are located. I would estimate the modules mounted on the door saturate twice as fast as the one I have mounted on the rear wall of the safe.

Try moving your dessicant around - especially with the golden rod(s) mounted in the safe you have created a little contained environment - you need to find out where to best absorb the moisture from.
 
Christmas Tree Shop is a great place for dessicant. They sell these little tubs of white pellets that are unreal at absorbing water. Super cheap too. I'll get the info when i get back from work.
 
Squished said:
that's a good point, so where would you recommend keeping it?

contest52.jpg
Click to expand...

The idea is to use a container that won't allow the pressure to build to the point that the ammo will explode and turn the safe ito a grenade. Wood would work or perhaps a wire cage. You would be sacrificing a lot of security but a steel safe with enough ammo in it to blow it open could be a major disaster. You would also probably destroy the contents of the safe.

I am in the process of adapting a wooden cabinet for ammo storage. It will be nowhere near as secure as a safe but, if they can get through the locked doors and by the Rottweiler they are welcome to the ammo.
 
Boston Wrangler said:
I have a Champion Crown Series safe, which is a very-secure, well-built safe, with two Golden Rod dehumidifiers placed on the floor of the unit. The safe is situated on the first floor (as opposed to the basement or attic). The house is air conditioned and (I thought) dry. I’ve had this safe for about four years and have no problems with it. Until now. We’ve had wet weather for a few weeks, and I’ve begun to notice that a few of my guns have begun to show signs of surface rust. This has never happened before.

So I sprayed down every gun in the safe with preservative, and ran out and purchased a large canister of desiccant, rated to protect up to 60 cubic feet (my safe has a 50 cubic-foot interior). The canister has been in place for about two weeks. Tonight I noticed that the blue indicator beads had started to turn pink – a definite sign of moisture.

Naturally, I’m beginning to panic; there are a lot of guns in this safe.

I’ve called the manufacturer, but they could offer no explanation. The only possible cause I could determine is that the safe is completely airtight, being sealed with a rubber-like strip that runs around the inside edge of the door (this strip is designed to expand in case of fire to seal the safe from heat damage.

Because of this, no air can flow through the safe when the door is closed. As I understand it, the operational principle of the Golden Rods is to heat the air in the safe, which becomes dry and then rises and exits through the top edge of the door. This sucks in new air from the bottom, and creates a flow of dry air, theoretically preventing rust.

If, however, the safe door is sealed, air cannot flow, and any moisture is trapped inside the safe. This is my theory, anyway, and I’m considering removing the rubber-like strips to allow air to flow (of course the safe will no longer be as fire-resistant as it once was).

Has anyone in the forum ever heard of anything like this happening? And does anyone have any suggestions? Any informed advice would be greatly appreciated!
Click to expand...
I have a Champion safe--the large 1200 lb 72" high version-- in my basement. I use a large Golden Rod and this: http://www.theruststore.com/Bull-Frog-Emitter-Shield-P25C12.aspx
I've had no signs of rust in the past 5 years. I tried using descicant in the beginning but I found I had to recharge it too often---made me nervous about being away for aany stretch of time.
 
Gammon said:
The idea is to use a container that won't allow the pressure to build to the point that the ammo will explode and turn the safe ito a grenade. Wood would work or perhaps a wire cage. You would be sacrificing a lot of security but a steel safe with enough ammo in it to blow it open could be a major disaster. You would also probably destroy the contents of the safe.

I am in the process of adapting a wooden cabinet for ammo storage. It will be nowhere near as secure as a safe but, if they can get through the locked doors and by the Rottweiler they are welcome to the ammo.
Click to expand...

So then why does the military use tightly closed steel ammo cans for storage?
 
You can find out quite easily if this is a problem.

Find a metal chest with thick walls. Put a few cans of black powder inside, then seal the lid. Make sure you use some sort of firestop strip and seal it up good and tight. Now build a bonfire in the back yard. Don't spare the gas! You want it good and hot. Toss the chest in and wait a while. Add wood/charcoal as needed.

I am totally ready to believe that this is perfectly safe, provided someone with specific experience in fire managment (a fireman/etc) says it is. I don't plan to try this even if so.

My belief (correct or incorrect) is that when the fire is hot enough the chest will explode and probably with a pretty good pop.

My ammo and powder is kept in a locking plastic "job box" type chest. Secure enough to keep out casual eyes and hands but loose enough to burn instead of exploding, should my fears be founded.
 
M1911 said:
A can of black powder is not exactly an accurate model for loaded, smokeless cartridges.
Click to expand...

I know, that was unfair, but on the other hand, how many reloaders here have a few cans of smokeless powder and how many muzzlefolk have some black powder kicking around?

And honestly, if you did the same test with the chest filled with regular cartridges and no cans of powder, I'd still keep my distance...
 
M1911 said:
Oh? How is my ammunition going to ignite inside the safe? Also, most safes are not airtight.
Click to expand...

The problem would occur during a fire where the temperature would get high enough to cook off the ammo. The fact that a safe wasn't air tight would not solve the pressure problem. I'm not sure whether or not a steel ammo can could create enough pressure for the ammo to explode; perhaps it is designed so that the lid gives before sufficient pressure develops. At any rate, the military has dedicated storage areas for their ordinance to deal with these problems.
 
I dont know if this is the thread I should throw this query into but... I need some storage for a few firearms (2 long, 3 pistol). I live in a two family and I am not in a position to put a safe/cabinet in the basement. I want something that will fit inside a closet and I am leaning towards a cabinet for a lot of reasons, ie: weight, size, cost. I know safes can protect against fire/flood/ and the occasional "oceans 11" style break in, but really why don't more people use cabinets over safes?
 
Dziner said:
I know safes can protect against fire/flood/ and the occasional "oceans 11" style break in, but really why don't more people use cabinets over safes?
Click to expand...
Because any mutt with a crow-bar or Sawzall (the ones in your basement will do quite nicely) can get into a cabinet made of 12 gauge sheet metal.

And no, a $2000 safe won't stop an "oceans 11" style break in. Not even close. But those sorts of folks aren't looking to steal a half a dozen guns.
 
I know safes can protect against fire/flood/ and the occasional "oceans 11" style break in, but really why don't more people use cabinets over safes?
Click to expand...

people who spend lots of money on gun safe spend even more money on guns and want to keep them safe.[smile]
 
Can anyone point me to a good safe dealer in NH? Uncle of mine in the Weare area is looking to get one and the only one I know is Eastern down in Mendon, MA. Thanks!
 
calsdad said:
//

What you really need is some way to remove the moisture along with having the golden rods. Which you did with the dessicant. Personally - I would just overdo it on the dessicant by a factor of 2 or 3 and see what happens before I started removing seals. In the really humid weather the dessicant will absorb faster and turn blue quicker - in the less humid weather it will go for months before needing to be recycled.
Click to expand...
That's what I do. I bought three large containers (probably 5X recommended) and even in summer they will go almost two months without needing to be reheated and dried out.

Dziner said:
I dont know if this is the thread I should throw this query into but... I need some storage for a few firearms (2 long, 3 pistol). I live in a two family and I am not in a position to put a safe/cabinet in the basement. I want something that will fit inside a closet and I am leaning towards a cabinet for a lot of reasons, ie: weight, size, cost. I know safes can protect against fire/flood/ and the occasional "oceans 11" style break in, but really why don't more people use cabinets over safes?
Click to expand...
Many people do. It's going to stop all the "amateurs" who break in to take what they can grab, and run. They're good for stuff like binoculars, camcorders, and laptops when you are away as well.

A Sentry G0135 weighs 70 lbs and would meet your needs. It's more rugged than the Homak or Stack-On products.

I used a Homak (purchased at Sports Authority) for a while until I got a safe, and still use it for ammo and tools. At the time I had it on the 3rd floor and it would have been a royal bitch to get even a "light" gun safe up there.

This was after a thread on TFL where a guy was going on a hunting trip and couldn't find his keys. So he set out to break into his own gun cabinet. It took him 20 minutes. If you mount it to a wall in a closet you allow a lot less leverage for tools. So if that's what works for you, go for it.

Another option is to get a small high-security safe for handguns and put your long guns in the cabinet.

A furniture dolly and a buddy or two works well and are inexpensive to rent or borrow. We now have an electric stair climbing dolly that makes going up a whole lot easier, but it's still nothing like fun.
 
Last edited:
Dziner said:
but really why don't more people use cabinets over safes?
Click to expand...

Uhh, because the increase in protection from a cabinet to even a cheap "safe" is often an order of magnitude... in terms of both weight (resistance to people carting it away) and in terms of pry protection. Even the cheapy sentry "safe" I have (that cost under $250, IIRC) is way thicker and more robust than a similar capacity gun
cabinet.

I also used quotes around the term "safe" because most gun safes are not worthy of being called a safe. To me a safe is something with a UL burglary rating on it, which most gun safes don't have. Most of them also can't be put on anything but a ground floor without structural problems due to the weight. (A safe is something you need riggers or safe movers to get in or out of your house.. ) [grin]

-Mike
 
That's a good point about what is a "safe". If you look at the AMSEC site, they have five different lines.

Spoke with a locksmith and he was of the opinion that most safe jobs are "inside" jobs and not many actually get broken open. As our security guy said "Thieves are lazy and stupid. If they weren't lazy or stupid, they'd have jobs."
 
Katty22 said:
Now flinch is different than recoil control. Recoil control or "timing the firearm" as I call it, happens as the gun is firing. There is only a few hundredths of a second difference but the difference in the effects on your shooting are incredible.

If you have never seen how the sights lift in recoil, you have been closing your eyes. IE flinching. Another thing to check for is to work on group shooting. If your shooting a 4" group off hand at 15 yards your most likely not flinching. If that group opens up with several flyers, you may be having an issue. If you can't keep them on the target you are having a real problem.

Lets take a look at the different things that contribute to flinch and see if we can help you with some drills to work through this problem.

Noise
Face it, loud noises scare us and cause a reaction. Its not normal for people to have an explosion happen in front of their face and not jump, blink, or have their muscles uncontrollable contract. We need to train, focusing on overcoming the body's physical and psychological reaction to the noise.
How do we go about doing that? Well let's start with a gun that doesn't make as much noise or even an air pistol. Learn some of the basics of shooting on a firearm, such as trigger control and sight alignment, without the distractions of the loud bang. Another thing that will significantly help will be double plugging. Using good ear plugs and a big set of ear muffs. This will help shut out the sound as it enters either the skull or the ear canal. You may want to also add a hat as this will reduce the amount of impact from the blast to the head.
Try shooting a few round safely with your eyes closed. (obviously after having checked your impact area and lined the gun up with the target) Feel what is bothering you. Is it the noise, recoil, blast??
Accepting the noise is one of the biggest things to learn. When the gun goes off focus on relaxing as much as possible. Use just enough grip strength to keep the gun from flying out of your hands. Start with a .22 rim fire and work your way up, learning to relax into the noise of each subsequent caliber.




_______________
IPSC shooting
Click to expand...

This user must be a BOT because all posts are WAY off topic!!
 

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