Gun Safes

wacky_doug said:
I bought a Champion Triumph 30 from them. Delivered and installed. It's the most expensive firearms-related thing I've ever purchased. But man is it a tank. 900 lbs, lagged to the floor, and a great fire-resistant rating. Breaking into it supposedly takes hours and a professional with the right tools.
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This is absolute nonsense - although I would also congratulate you on making a good investment in the safety of your collection.

The Triumph is a decent gun safe, but it is a 10 gauge gun safe, not a TL rated safe. It bears a RSC (Residential Security Container) rating which is a safespeak for "glorified tin can". The side or rear door of this safe can be opened in a very short period of time using a grit blade on a circular saw (use a corded model; cordless may not quite do it; keep a fire extinguisher handy and wear hearing protection), or a cutting tip on an Oxy Aceteleyne torch (don't forget the welding mask). If you own a metal cutting saw, or cutting torch, it is best practice to store the blades/tips inside the safe. It really sucks to get broken into with your own tools.

The unit described is a very good home safe, and will give you one, maybe two nines of protection (stopping 90% or 99% of residential burgulars), but it is ridiculous to say that it would take "hours and a professional with the right tools" for forced entry.

Even the top of line Champion Crown safe (7 gauge, 3/16") is not immune from this sort of attack - it just takes longer. Ever wonder why the gun safe companies that publish videos of big guys wailing on their safes with pickaxes and sledgehammers never video a nerd with a metal cutting saw opening the side door?

To put things in perspective, the UL requirement for a TL30 safe is "not able to make a 4" opening, or open the door in less than 30 minutes using tools that one person can carry to the job". Even the TL30 rating does not include protection against a torch job (you need a TRTL rating for that).

If you go to a TL 30 rated safe you are talking units of tons for weight, and units of thousands $ (or even tens of thousands $) for the safe cost.

The guys at Eastern Security know guns safes pretty well, but are not real "safe men". I doubt they have a single SAVTA member on staff, and from what I could tell, their staff doesn't do advanced drill or manipulation jobs other than using their ITL auto dialer. (which finds mechanical combinations by exhaustive enumeration rather than analysis like the Mas Hamilton Soft Drill does).
 
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The fact still remains, if someone wants in, they're getting in. Whether it takes 15 minutes or 30 minutes, if they want those contents, they're getting them. Best defense in my opinion is hide it in a good spot. If it takes them 15 minutes instead of 5 minutes to realize you have a gun safe, you're ahead of the game.

Having used an Oxy Acetelyne torch before, those will make most safes look silly in a matter of seconds.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
This is absolute nonsense - although I would also congratulate you on making a good investment in the safety of your collection.
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Thanks for extra information. I guess ESS fed me a line on the "professional safe cracker" thing. Too bad, given how much folks rave over these guys here.

For the benefit of others, I found this on safe ratings.

http://www.thesafesource.com/safe_ratings.htm
 
wacky_doug said:
Thanks for extra information. I guess ESS fed me a line on the "professional safe cracker" thing. Too bad, given how much folks rave over these guys here.

For the benefit of others, I found this on safe ratings.

http://www.thesafesource.com/safe_ratings.htm
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Rest easy, few housebreaks are done by pros that come armed with specialized tools. Most/almost all are done by people looking for an easy score without much "heavy lifting".

On the other hand, advertising what you own and where it is is NOT a good way to avoid pros picking up on who is an easy target for a big score.
 
Squished said:
... Best defense in my opinion is hide it in a good spot. If it takes them 15 minutes instead of 5 minutes to realize you have a gun safe, you're ahead of the game.
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Totally agree. Having a safe is better than not having one, but I'd rather have a smaller, less secure, but well hidden safe than some behemoth thing out in the open.

You can't break into a safe if you don't know it's there.
 
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Some other ideas: Have a home security system, preferably with a land line and cellular phone back up notification. Make sure it has a battery back up and notification if it transitions to batter power. Also use motion sensors that have jamming detection and notification. Like other posters mentioned, hide it if possible. Also, lag it down in such a way that it must be drilled from the front (wedge between walls or put another lagged down object on the exposed side if in a corner). Drilling a safe usually takes longer from the front, so make them do it the hard way. Also, if you are in a cement basement you could erect your own re-enforced cinder block wall on all sides of the safe, forcing them to either tear down walls or drill form the front (time and noise). Anything that will take a burglar time, along with a robust home security system should have very good effectiveness.
 
wacky_doug said:
Thanks for extra information. I guess ESS fed me a line on the "professional safe cracker" thing. Too bad, given how much folks rave over these guys here.

For the benefit of others, I found this on safe ratings.

http://www.thesafesource.com/safe_ratings.htm
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ESS is good at what they do, offer a decent product for the money, and do great delivery. They do not sell professional "Jewelery store grade safes", nor do they target "professional users" of high value targets.
 
The other thing that I've heard recommended, is to have multiple (preferably hidden) safes in different locations rather than one big on w/ all your valuable stuff in it. If you have one big safe, the burglar will probably assume its your only one. If you fill that one with less valuable stuff and the guy spends time breaking into it w/ little payout that may be enough for them to abort. Time is not on their side.
 
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I heard something else about which I'd like some clarity from those of you who have already done the research:

Are tool-resistant, torch- & tool-resistant, or fire-resistant safes really bad places to store firearms? This rumor is fairly persistent, and it also, coincidentally, is most often repeated by those who do not sell sell TL-15 or higher quality safes. The rumor is that they have 'some water absorbancy in the walls that protect the contents in the event of fire or torch & tool attacks, and that moisture is hard on firearms. Overcoming the moisture by installing lighting or goldenrod-type devices solves the rust problem, but reduces the fire resistant capabilities of the safe'.

I am familiar with TL-15, TL-30, and TR/TL30x6 safes, and I have occasionally been tempted to make an offer on one that was being left in an abandoned jewelry store location, but I've avoided the temptation due to this rumor.

If the rumor is accurate, why is it that so many of the gun safes are also listed as fire-resistant? Are they not also filled with the same moisture-attracting fireproofing, or are they using some other material (like fireman's suits) to provide heat protection?
 
The "document fire safes" and home safes like some of the Sentry office safes use a fire resistant material that uses moisture for protection (since it takes 540 calories/degree to boil water, the phase transition absorbs loads of heat). In fact, the instructions for such safes generally caution the use to air them out so paper stored inside does not get soggy. Gun safes use gypsum or similar material for fire resistance rather than the document safe style wet insulation.

TRTL safes often don't have fire resistance, except what they get by accident due to the nature of their construction. Is is not really that bad, since homeowners insurance typically has a limit on firearms losses by theft or mysterious disappearance, but will cover fire damage to the limit of your personal possessions coverage.
 
RichM said:
Thanks, Rob. So if I can get my hands on a TL-15 or TL-30, go for it, right?
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Rich,

Are you putting it on a concrete floor? Or a inside wooden floor?

Be very careful of "floor loading" potential issues, as those "real safes" are as heavy as a car and I'm not sure that most house floors are built to handle that sort of static load (especially after loading another 1/2 ton of guns/ammo in it).
 
RichM said:
Thanks, Rob. So if I can get my hands on a TL-15 or TL-30, go for it, right?
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Yup, if the layout suits your collection (many are designed with shelves for jewelery and cash, no room for rifles); you can get it moved; have a place that will support the weight; and can afford it. AMSEC offers one in the$7,000 range. If you don't have the money, support structure, or movement ability, the fact that a TL30 is better than a traditional gun safe is not a reason not to get a gun safe.

As a practical matter, a regular "guns safe" buys you decent protection from a statistical point of view (the vast majority of burglars won't both to hang around to breech a container unless you make it easy for them by leaving the tools they need to open the safe out in the open). Just remember that the strength of the side door (wall thickness) is more important than gimmicks like what adjective the manufacturer chooses to apply to the hardplate they put in front of the lock (drilling and bore scoping is probably even rarer than direct physical assault).

The most common thicknesses of gun safes walls are 10 gauge and 12 gauge, with 7 gauge (3/16) and thicker being uncommon but available. The difficulty of penetration increases faster than the thickness. Also, extra thickness means extra weight, and once you get past 1000lbs or so, bolting the safe down becomes less important.
 
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I was in Dick's today, and while talking to the sales guy about the 36 gun Stack On Elite fire safe(GSX-536) on sale for $599.97, the manager came up and offered a brand new in box GSXW-836 water/fire safe for $499.99. I'm seeing this on-line for over $1,000, so if you are in the market, it might be worth a trip to your local store to see what they have in stock.

Be forewarned, delivery will cost about $300-$400. I'm looking at Mancini for this, but other suggestions are appreciated.
 
A1850 said:
Most decent homeowners policies provide at least $1000 in coverage for firearms. If you need more coverage than that, you can add specific endorsements for small money.
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Homeowners generally covers guns to the same limit as any other property for loss by fire, but imposes a very small limit for loss by theft or mysterious disappearance. Something to consider when determining if "fire" or "theft" resistance is the primary goal of your safe.
 
Was wondering if someone could help me out with a question I have. I need a safe and the ONLY place I can put it is in my garage which isn't climate controlled (I live in a condo and it's attached). In the summer it does stay somewhat cool but obviously humidity gets in there. In the winter time the coldest the garage has ever registered was like 35-38 degrees (This was with negative degrees reading outside).

Now if I keep my firearms properly lubricated and put a thin film of gun oil on the outside of the firearm and down the barrel I should be ok (from what I read). Also would storing my ammo in the garage (seperate secured container) be ok? I've read that extreme heat is bad but the cold isnt. I just want to make sure that if I invest in a safe and put it in the garage it's not to destory my collection.
 
BadBoyBilly said:
Was wondering if someone could help me out with a question I have. I need a safe and the ONLY place I can put it is in my garage which isn't climate controlled (I live in a condo and it's attached). In the summer it does stay somewhat cool but obviously humidity gets in there. In the winter time the coldest the garage has ever registered was like 35-38 degrees (This was with negative degrees reading outside).

Now if I keep my firearms properly lubricated and put a thin film of gun oil on the outside of the firearm and down the barrel I should be ok (from what I read). Also would storing my ammo in the garage (seperate secured container) be ok? I've read that extreme heat is bad but the cold isnt. I just want to make sure that if I invest in a safe and put it in the garage it's not to destory my collection.
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I'd recommend getting a dehumidifier for the safe if you plan on keeping it in the garage.
 
Not true. Firearms have a limit for any loss. Fire. Theft. etc. If the house burns down you still have the same amount of coverage for firearms as if they were stolen.

Rob Boudrie said:
Homeowners generally covers guns to the same limit as any other property for loss by fire, but imposes a very small limit for loss by theft or mysterious disappearance. Something to consider when determining if "fire" or "theft" resistance is the primary goal of your safe.
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A1850 said:
Not true. Firearms have a limit for any loss. Fire. Theft. etc. If the house burns down you still have the same amount of coverage for firearms as if they were stolen.
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I just checked the section "Special limits of liability" on my MA HO-3 form policy, and it includes "$2,500 for loss by theft of firearms and related equipment".

It may be that some policies do not have a "by theft" qualifier, which is why I included the qualifier "generally" in my earlier post.

There are numerous examples of HO-3 forms with reference to "by theft" on the web, and an interesting chart from an Ohio agency that includes the same qualfiier: http://www.kellyagency.com/attachments/050_HAN_HO3_Comparison.pdf

This would also seem to make sense, as firearms are not at any increased risk of loss compared to other expensive home contents like pianos, except for the specific risk of theft.
 
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Rather than start a new thread, I'll add this in here. I was walking through Home Depot looking for things to impulse buy as I went in for some plywood for a backboard, and went down the safe isle to see what they had. I saw the SentrySafe (PL048E). Basically it's a Key Pad Entry flat box with a key override sold to store laptops. It comes with a cable to secure to something else, and you store the laptop inside.

Now anyone with a short time and a screw driver is going to get in, however, if you're looking for something simple for the nightstand, or to cable lock to the backseat of your car (hey, it's a lockable container and able to be secured to your car, meets MA requirements (I have a SUV with no trunk, so this will work), it was only $25 bucks (Normally about $50).

I picked one up as I wanted something I could put in my bottom drawer and keep a firearm near the bed, but have SOME kind of security to it. May pick another one up to leave cabled in the car (put a blanket over it) so I don't have to keep locking up my pistol case when I travel to the range.

YMMV :)
 
I'm looking for a good tall safe and Dick's Sporting Goods is really the only place that carries gun safes.

How do you people rate the Sentry gun safes (the tall ones). I'm thinking of possibly getting the 59" tall Sentry safe from Dick's but the reviews on their site are inconsistent. They all seem the same and around $450.

Appreciate your help!
 
Something that cheap will have thin sidewalls that are easily defeated in a peeling attack. The axe and crow bar you have in your basement will go right through the side in a heartbeat.

It is better than a trigger lock or just locking your gun in a case, but realize what you are not getting.
 
Does anyone know of any alternatives to safes? I can't secure anything to the floor and most of the safes are a bit out of my price range. I've been using an old gun cabinet for a few years now, but not only does it take up far too much room for my living space, I highly doubt it could keep out a raccoon, let alone a determined thief.

I've been thinking maybe a gun rack instead. I'm not really worried about keeping burglars out as I am children. Plus I only have a pistol and rifle.
 
Has anyone built their own safe? I'm just wondering because i'm a fairly decent welder and after looking at the prices of some of the mid-highend safes, I'm fairly certain i could build one for a fraction of the price. I'm thinking i could build a nice one for less than $400 vs. $2000 and i'd make the it at least 3/16" thick. The only part i'm concerned about is the locking mechanism. I mean i could just weld on multiple points for padlocks but thats kinda ghetto.
 
rcwhat said:
Has anyone built their own safe? I'm just wondering because i'm a fairly decent welder and after looking at the prices of some of the mid-highend safes, I'm fairly certain i could build one for a fraction of the price. I'm thinking i could build a nice one for less than $400 vs. $2000 and i'd make the it at least 3/16" thick. The only part i'm concerned about is the locking mechanism. I mean i could just weld on multiple points for padlocks but thats kinda ghetto.
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I've seen safe doors for sale, so maybe that's an option for the lock issue. If you can buy a new door and then build the safe around it, you'd probably have a pretty good set up.
 
Picked up Gun Cabinet on Craigslist

Picked up a free Homak gun cabinet on craigslist. The locks were bad & got them replaced at a locksmith for $48.
It can hold about 5 rifles & it was a good deal for $48 repaired.
 

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