Gun Safes

[Sputa Arms]

Thanks Anthony! It's so good to have a real safe professional, and expert, commenting on this. I have a Mancini safe, a smaller one - it has a Mancini label on it, it's a Safeguard SD-107.

Anyway, thanks for the caution on the relockers. The little safe I'm wrote the review on has no such thing.

On the S&G 6123, I would like to go ahead and use it, since I own it and can't return it. Is there something that can be done to correct this fault? It's incredible that S&G could make such a weak design. I can't imagine how the screw or nut could strip, unless the motor keeps turning after it the bolt hits a mechanical limit. I take it you've done some forensics on the failed locks?

Is this something I can drill myself if it fails, in a simple safe as the one I reviewed?

Thanks,

M

I just wanted to put a little light on it, just in case someone tried opening up a GROUP BUY on these things..HAHAHA!

Hell if you already have one, put it on, and keep an ear on the sounds it makes, if it starts eating batteries, or only opens every other time you punch in the combination. Remove it!!!! you can "sometimes" predict the failure,

These are very hit or miss, I just drilled one open just last night for a guy and the lock was 7 years old.. To much inconsistency for me.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Another really nice design is the LaGard electronic with the swing bolt. There is very little movement, as the only thing the lock does is move the swinging part a tiny bit so it does not "catch" on a blocking mechanism - and the retraction is done by turning safe handle.

BUT, it requires a different design of the safe lockwork, and is not a "drop in" replacement for a retractable bolt.

If you are using a retractable bold design like the S&G, avoid bolt side pressure. This occurs if you have the safe handle turned so there is friction against the side of the bolt. If you turn the handle all the way to "locked", and not as if you were unlocking it until it stops, you will generally be allowing the bolt to move without any side pressure.

As to reliability - stop by the S&G booth at the Shot Show and ask what kind of "lockout service guarantee" S&G offers with their electronic locks. They will tell you none.

The best design I have seen is the SmithSecuritySafe.com that uses an electronic combination lock with a mechanical override lock. Override key locks can be problematic as they usually introduce a weak point in the safe, but Smith uses a LaGard 2270 for the override lock which is a "safe grade" key lock providing security comparable to a conventional combination lock, and is easily re-keyed. Think Abloy on steroids.

 

[Sputa Arms]

Agree lagard does have good electronic locks,

For the most part you can configure the swing bolt to most applications.

The bold side or "binding" pressure will just as well effect a mechanical lock also.

I dont like any kind of "Override" whether it be a code or a key. To Vulnerable, Not Safe!, anyone can get a hold of your information, call the company tell them they "lost" the key and have a key sent to their house.

None of these locks lasts for ever. I have just as many of the mechanical locks FAIL, These companies put way too much emphasis on override codes and back up designs.

No need for a back up, you just need a safe that the company is going to stand behind the product incase of any issues such as a lock out.

 

[tree]

And guys!! Be VERY careful changing out your own locks, on most safes there is a part in the boltwork called re-lockers, when you take your lock apart to replace it with something else, if you dont set up the re-locker correctly, back in its original position, you close the door, the re-locker fires and you will be calling someone like me to come over and DRILL it open..
.

Thanks, that was very useful to know.

 

[Madisonian]

I have just as many of the mechanical locks FAIL

Wow, I'm surprised to hear that. I just bought a safe from Eastern Security in Mendon and a guy there said they have much more trouble with electronic locks, four calls per day, but never any trouble with mechanical locks except for the case where someone forgets the combination.

 

[SpiderMA]

I have a sentry 24 gun/fire safe (more like 6 rifles comfortably with shelfs) I bought from Lowes on clearance a few years ago. I am currently looking for a new larger, more secure safe. In my searching I came across some info on placement of the safe (corner/cubby hole) and bolting it down to make it more difficult for a "typical" break attempt. I thought this video scared me as it look very similar to my safe. I think it would be much more difficult if it was bolted and open side up against a wall to minimize leverage.

Security on Sale Gun safe Prying video - YouTube

I am going to head out tomorrow to Eastern Security and hopefully a few other locations to see what is out there. Would like to spend in the area of $1K -$1500. Looking for something with shelving that can hold say 6 handguns and 10 rifles comfortably.

Not sure what people are paying for a Fort Knox and/or Liberty safes. Anyone purchased one of these lately?

 

[M1911]

Nothing you get for $1000 - $1500 will defeat a peeling attack. The sides will be thin walls that are easily defeated by your own crow bar and axe. A $1000 will defeat a smash-and-grab burglar.

 

[SpiderMA]

What would be the min for a safe with decent side walls?

 

[Madisonian]

Nothing you get for $1000 - $1500 will defeat a peeling attack. The sides will be thin walls that are easily defeated by your own crow bar and axe. A $1000 will defeat a smash-and-grab burglar.

The notable exception to this is Sturdy Safe. I almost bought one of theirs, but ended up with a Summit Denali.

The Sturdy 2419 has 7 gauge walls (0.1793") and a 5/16" door (0.3125"), which should resist a peeling attack, and is $1314 delivered to your driveway (no fire protection at this price).

Model 2419 : Gun Safe : Sturdy Safe

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The bold[t] side or "binding" pressure will just as well effect a mechanical lock also.

True, however, if you have side pressure with a mechanical lock you can generally feel it when you turn the dial after the cam engages the wheels. With electronic, you lack that feedback and simply put additional weak on the electro-mechanical mechanism.

I dont like any kind of "Override" whether it be a code or a key. To Vulnerable, Not Safe!, anyone can get a hold of your information, call the company tell them they "lost" the key and have a key sent to their house.

Read the manual on the LaGard 2270. If you have the existing key (or the zero bitted key when the lock is shipped) and the change key, you can buy a new key from an independent source (shipping it to an address with no affiliation with the location of your safe) and re-key the wheel configuration so only the new key works - then nobody has your key "on file". It's logically the same as changing a mechanical combination on a new safe to avoid any concern the vendor has your combination on file "as a service to you".

If you doubt me, call LaGard, tell them you have a 2270 and changed the combination to a new key and want a duplicate sent

On a related point: When I bought my safe from Eastern Security, they told me all combinations are kept on file as a service to customers, but they are stored in a highly secure manner. I got the mechanical lock, insisted on the change key, and set my own combo.

No need for a back up, you just need a safe that the company is going to stand behind the product incase of any issues such as a lock out.

I don't know of any that provide on-site, lifetime, lockout service (with repait of the safe) for electronic locks. Do you?

What would be the min for a safe with decent side walls?

Depends on what you mean by "decent". Common thicknesses are 12 gauge, 10 gauge, and 3/16". The former are easily defeated with fire axes, grinders, etc. 3/16" can still be defeated but takes much more work. Figure $3Kis+ for a decent size 3/16" unit weighing about 1500 lbs.

 

[deezwho]

Sturdy Safe has some pics of 12 and 10 guage safes following axe attacks ... of course, they are trying to sell you their safes, but I think it's pretty eye opening nonetheless.

About Gauge Safe Bodies : Fire Safes : Gun Safe : Sturdy Safe

 

[Madisonian]

On a related point: When I bought my safe from Eastern Security, they told me all combinations are kept on file as a service to customers, but they are stored in a highly secure manner.

That is not what they told me (last month); they said they never keep customers' safe combinations on file, but that some safe manufacturers do, so if you don't change if and you forget, and they can get it from the manufacturer you are in luck.

Might be worth a call to them to find out what their policy is, and has been in the past.

 

[Madisonian]

Sturdy Safe has some pics of 12 and 10 guage safes following axe attacks ... of course, they are trying to sell you their safes, but I think it's pretty eye opening nonetheless.

About Gauge Safe Bodies : Fire Safes : Gun Safe : Sturdy Safe

I think the fire axe attack is a stunt. You would have to have a great deal of skill and lots of muscle to make an opening big enough to do the job. The realistic threat is a crook using a die grinder on a 12 or 10 gauge safe. You can get a grinder for $20 at Harbor Freight that will go through that stuff like butter. For just over $1000 you can get an electric nibbler that will handle 10 gauge steel. I think 3/16" is the minimum for body thickness if you are concerned about this kind of attack. You're into over $2,000 for a nibbler that will handle 3/16"; I doubt they are in the arsenal of this kind of crook.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

That is not what they told me (last month); they said they never keep customers' safe combinations on file, but that some safe manufacturers do, so if you don't change if and you forget, and they can get it from the manufacturer you are in luck.

Might be worth a call to them to find out what their policy is, and has been in the past.

I do not doubt what you say, however, I was told differently about 15 years ago.

I think the fire axe attack is a stunt.

Definitely, because nobody, even premium quality gun safe manufacturers, posts videos of attacks with grinding wheels, carbide saws, concrete saws, circular saws with grit blades, or cutting torches.

I think 3/16" is the minimum for body thickness if you are concerned about this kind of attack.

Its a matter of how many nines of protection to you want? Do you want to stop 90, 99, 99.9 or 99.99% of burgulars? My guess is that even 10/12 gauge gives you at least one nine, and your up to two or three nines with 3/16 and need a TL-15 or better get into 4 nines of protection. But, that is just a guess.

 

[Madisonian]

Its a matter of how many nines of protection to you want? Do you want to stop 90, 99, 99.9 or 99.99% of burgulars? My guess is that even 10/12 gauge gives you at least one nine, and your up to two or three nines with 3/16 and need a TL-15 or better get into 4 nines of protection. But, that is just a guess.

It's impossible to put this kind of thing into finely-resolved quantitative terms, in my opinion. It's best to evaluate the threat, and the layers of protection a thief must traverse in order to select a suitable container.

If you have a home that's unattended for long periods, perhaps in a rural area, and you have tools a burglar could use, and he has time to use them and can make noise unnoticed, you have one class of problem. If you're in a not so rural area, have a home burglar alarm, and his entry and noise won't likely go unnoticed, you're in a different class.

 

[SpiderMA]

Does anyone have experience with a Steel Water gun safe? On sale for $1599 delivered w/free dehumidifier.

22 Long Guns - 2 Hr Fire - $1,599 - HD593024-BLK - Steelwater Gun Safes


Maximum 22 (11/11) long gun capacity (Average Capacity: 14 to 18 long guns)2 Hour of fire protection @ 1875°F
Exceeds California Department of Justice regulatory standards for gun safes
Composite constructed 5 1/4” thick door that includes a 1/4” solid steel plate and a total of (4) layers of fireboard
9 Gauge steel constructed body with decorative beveled edges that features (4) layers of fireboard totaling more than 1 1/2" in thickness with an added 1/4" thick layer of "fire barrier" in the walls, ceiling, floor, and door jams
Total (18) 1 1/2” diameter solid steel locking bolts, (11) chrome plated active bolts with an additional (7) inactive bolts on the hinge side for a total of (4) sides of bolt coverage
Gear driven lock and bolt system for added strength against punch attacks
Drill/Ballistic resistant hard plate to protect the lock from being drilled or manipulated
Spring loaded re-locking bolt in case lock is removed during a burglary attack
High-gloss black finish with silver pin stripping and polished chrome 5-spoke handle
Heavy duty 1 1/4" diameter hinges with decorative polished chrome screw in acorn hinge caps
Heat activated expandable door seal that is designed to seal out smoke and water and expands up to 8 times its thickness in the event of a fire
(1) Pre-drilled 1/2" diameter hole for the installation of a dehumidifier (This hole is drilled only through the steel and is located on the back of the safe.)
(4) Pre-drilled 1/2” diameter anchor holes, lag bolts included
Fully upholstered grey interior that features a (2) section gun rack that can store up to a maximum of (11) long guns within each section and includes (4) adjustable/removable shelves for additional storage options
(1) Full length shelf – Width: 25 3/4” Depth: 16 1/4”
(3) Small shelves – Width: 12 1/2” Depth: 16 1/4” (These shelves can be used only in the right section(s) of the gun rack)
FREE DEHUMIDIFIER either a DR-12 (electricity required) or a EV-333 (no batteries or cords required)
FREE SHIPPING
FREE LIFTGATE
FREE GARAGE DELIVERY (certain restrictions apply)

 

[Sputa Arms]

True, however, if you have side pressure with a mechanical lock you can generally feel it when you turn the dial after the cam engages the wheels. With electronic, you lack that feedback and simply put additional weak on the electro-mechanical mechanism.


Read the manual on the LaGard 2270. If you have the existing key (or the zero bitted key when the lock is shipped) and the change key, you can buy a new key from an independent source (shipping it to an address with no affiliation with the location of your safe) and re-key the wheel configuration so only the new key works - then nobody has your key "on file". It's logically the same as changing a mechanical combination on a new safe to avoid any concern the vendor has your combination on file "as a service to you".

If you doubt me, call LaGard, tell them you have a 2270 and changed the combination to a new key and want a duplicate sent

Im not doubting anything, Thats way too much work for a customer to feel secure.

Back ups are silly in MY opinion. No matter how far you want to go with changing locks and keys and combos to tinfoil hats thinking the government has all this on file..Back up keys and codes and locks are a sales pitch for cheap products.

 

[SpiderMA]

I just bought an old Citizens bank with (2) 10'x14' safes. The doors must weigh 1,000lbs each, 18" thick conc walls etc., difficult to just swing them. My office is about 10mins away from home, but in RI (I live in MA and I don't have a RI Non-Res). Too bad, would have been cool to be able to use one for items I don't use as often.

I left the safes/drivethru intact in case someone offered me $ I could not refuse.

I am leaning toward a Steelwater 22 gun (2 hr fire), 9 gauge steel sides. Does anyone have a Steelwater safe?

22 Long Guns - 2 Hr Fire - $1,599 - HD593024-BLK - Steelwater Gun Safes

BTW, if anyone is interested in a space for rent with a bank vault let me know, I plan on renting part of my buidling (say 1,000sft with Safe)

 

[Madisonian]

I just bought an old Citizens bank with (2) 10'x14' safes. The doors must weigh 1,000lbs each, 18" thick conc walls etc., difficult to just swing them. My office is about 10mins away from home, but in RI (I live in MA and I don't have a RI Non-Res). Too bad, would have been cool to be able to use one for items I don't use as often.

I left the safes/drivethru intact in case someone offered me $ I could not refuse.

I am leaning toward a Steelwater 22 gun (2 hr fire), 9 gauge steel sides. Does anyone have a Steelwater safe?

22 Long Guns - 2 Hr Fire - $1,599 - HD593024-BLK - Steelwater Gun Safes

BTW, if anyone is interested in a space for rent with a bank vault let me know, I plan on renting part of my buidling (say 1,000sft with Safe)

Value for the dollar seems fine to me, having recently done a lot of research on gun safes. Safe choice depends on what kind of attack you are protecting against: what skill level crook, and how much time will he have to work on it. A 9 gauge box with a 1/4" plate door can be probably pried open by a bold, somewhat experienced thief with some time who can flop it onto its back and has a long enough pry bar - though not easily. It's also near the limit for a peel attack, and also over the limit for sub-$1,000 nibblers. I don't know about a grinder or metal-cutting circular saw attack. I'm not an expert, I've just done a lot of reading on the topic lately.

Combined with a loud alarm system, or monitored alarm you would be fine, I think.

As you buy better and better, and consequentially more and more expensive safes you are purchasing time - any safe can be cracked, it's only a matter of how long it will take. There are many threats, including the crooks just taking the safe away. If it's heavy, bolted down, and surrounded by a loud or monitored alarm you are in pretty good shape.

 

[Madisonian]

By the way, I really like Sturdy Safe, but after all is said and done they can't compete with a local company like Eastern selling safe like Summit. For the same approximate volume and same money, and same delivery you get a thicker body safe (3/16" versus 7 gauge (.1875" v. .1793")) and much thicker door (1/2" v. 5/16").

Note that "garage delivery" usually means anywhere in your garage, still on the palette. If you want it put somewhere in your basement, etc., off the palette, it's extra for Eastern, and for Sturdy you'll have to get a local safe mover - maybe Eastern - to move it into place.

I've heard Eastern stands behind their stuff, which is one reason I went with them. We'll see!

BTW, Eastern can get and install a Sturdy safe if you want (I asked).

 

[deezwho]

As you buy better and better, and consequentially more and more expensive safes you are purchasing time - any safe can be cracked, it's only a matter of how long it will take. There are many threats, including the crooks just taking the safe away. If it's heavy, bolted down, and surrounded by a loud or monitored alarm you are in pretty good shape.

A determined professional will get your stuff no matter what. Ive heard of cases where the crooks just winched 1000lb+ bolted down safes, ripped em out of the ground and hauled away to break into later. That scenario is highly unlikely unless someone thinks you have goods that are worth a lot of dough or large amount of cash/jewelry.

In my case, I dont have an alarm system in my suburban house so I mostly wanted something you cant easily break into with standard home improvement store grade tools. Plus, my stuff is worth less than 5K anyway.

 

[MX338]

Thought I would post this as I cant afford it. Nice browning safe on craigslist. Bowning gun safe .

- - - Updated - - -

Thought I would post this as I cant afford it. Nice browning safe on craigslist. http://boston.craigslist.org/nwb/for/3615668354.html .

 

[travis]

Want a safe buy one you think you can not possibly fill cause you will. Next buy a good one. If need be buy 2 or more...

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I've heard Eastern stands behind their stuff, which is one reason I went with them. We'll see!

They do, but do not expect lockout service (except at their standard rate that was $125/hour a decade or so ago). I know someone who had a lock fail, and Eastern was very polite about explaining that there would be no out of warranty service coming from them.

 

[SpiderMA]

Anyone with any experience with MESA Safe. This seems like a reasonable deal. I am torn. I can either buy a higher end $3k safe......or, buy a $1500 safe and hopefully a AR10.

THe others I am considering is Sturdy ($3200), Fort knox ($3300), SteelWater ($2000), Summit ($???).



Tough to read.

Ratings
Fire Rating:
1 hr. class 350 Burglary Rating:
1/4" steel door; 1/8" steel body Media Rating:
Not rated for media Interior Dimensions
Interior Height:
67 1/2" Interior Width:
32 1/2" Interior Depth:
18" Cubic Feet:
22.9 cu. ft. Exterior Dimensions
Exterior Height:
71" Exterior Width:
36" Exterior Depth:
24" Weight:
865 lbs.

Description
The GS-ME Series Gun Safes are all steel constructed protecting your weapons and other valuables by combining the features of a burglary safe and the added security of a fire safe. .. backed by the manufacturer’s limited lifetime warranty* from the time you purchase your GS-ME Series Gun Safe.

Ruggedly constructed, the reinforced 1 ½” thick door has 10 gauge steel sheets that enclose the fire retardant material and boltwork so there is steel on the outside and inside of the door adding more burglary protection. There are four massive 1” diameter active bolts securing the door and three 1” deadbolts to help prevent prying the door off by thieves.

The exterior hinges allow opening the door 180 degrees so you can take advantage of the full clearance of the safes’ interior. The interior of the safe is fully upholstered with quality fabric to offer you reduced dust and airborne debris from your gun collection and other valuables.

All GS-ME models come with an attractive battery powered electronic lock for quick access to your valuables . You can readily change your personal code with the MSL-50 electronic lock which also features two user codes. The keypad will go into a Lockout Penalty if combinations are repeatedly entered incorrectly, frustrating the would be burglar. The lock is protected by a drill resistant hard plate and further reinforced with an internal spring loaded relocking device. The relocker is a small “bolt” that will release if the safe is under attack by tools like hammers or crowbars and once it fires, the active door bolts will not move disallowing opening of the door.

There are four predrilled anchor bolt holes should you choose to bolt down your safe and all models have a decorative brass multi-spoke handle for ease in opening the door. You have the option of two interior configurations: gun racking and shelves or shelves only.

With a 1 hour Class 350 fire rating (tested at 1750°F) and the solid construction of this safe, you can have peace of mind that you have protected your family and your valuables with the GS-ME Series Gun Safes.

The GS-ME Series Gun Safes meet or exceed all CA Penal Code Section 12088 regulations.

Standard Features:
1.Door is reinforced 1 ½” thick with 10 gauge steel sheets
2.High strength unitized 12 gauge body
3.Internal relocking device provides a secondary line of defense.
4.Four active 1” diameter solid steel locking bolts.
5.1 hour Class 350 fire rating (tested at external temp of 1750 F)
6.Lock is protected by a heavy duty drill resistant hard plate.
7.Four pre-drilled bolt holes used to securely anchor the safe.
8.Interior shelves, walls and door panel fully upholstered in gray carpet.
9.Solid adjustable/removable shelves.
10.Safe exterior finish is textured black
11.Brass tri-spoke handle (five spoke handle for the GS-ME-713624)
12.Safe feet available at time of order
13.Origin: China
Electronic lock:
1.Lock-out penalty, if combinations are consecutively entered incorrectly three times, the safe will lock up for a 15 minute period frustrating the would-be burglar.
2.Low battery warning, visual signal is given when battery is low.
3.Audio and visual signal, LED flashes and unit beeps to indicate that the entry is valid or invalid.
4.Personal code can be changed quickly and easily by the operator of the safe.
*Manufacturers Limited Lifetime Warranty If you are the original Owner of a Mesa Safe Burglary /Fire Gun Safe/Constitution Series Safe that suffers damage due to theft or fire, Mesa Safe will replace the safe with absolutely no product cost to you. You must provide Mesa Safe with a properly filed police and or fire department report, within 30 days of incident. We will either repair or replace (at our option) with a current production model of comparable value. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY REMOVAL CHARGES AND FOR ANY SHIPPING CHARGES. Under no circumstances will Mesa Safe be held liable for contents of said Safe(s). Proof of purchase or notarized document stating you are in fact the true original owner of the safe is required. This Limited Lifetime warranty is non-transferable. For additional assistance, please contact us. Mesa Safe provides world class customer service and stands behind each of our products 100%.
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[Madisonian]

I looked at Mesa safes. With Mesa, as with any other manufacturer, you have to be critical in your reading of how they express their specs. This one, for example, has a body that's about 11 gauge, and door composed of 10 gauge sheets. This is not very resistant to a serious peel attack. It will certainly keep out neighborhood teenagers (54% of all home break-ins), curious kids and family members, and smash and grab crooks. It will also certainly cover your legal and civil liabilities. The others you mention at roughly twice the price are much more substantial safes, with thicker bodies and doors.

 

[Madisonian]

They do, but do not expect lockout service (except at their standard rate that was $125/hour a decade or so ago). I know someone who had a lock fail, and Eastern was very polite about explaining that there would be no out of warranty service coming from them.

I just want to correct this. I recently took delivery of a safe from Eastern, and just got off the phone with them regarding warranty. They rep the safes they sell and service the warranty on behalf of the manufacturer. My coverage is lifetime for mechanical failures and robbery attempts that render the safe inoperable, i.e., lockout. They will come and open the safe and fix it. This applies to dial locks, i.e., mechanical locks such as the S&G on mine. I don't know what the warranty covers for electronic locks.

But please, don't take my word for it as some stranger on the internet; call them and ask.

I have no connection with them other than being a satisfied customer.

M

 

[tree]

Hey there, I just received mine - noticed it was in the garage, I guess my wife forgot to tell me it arrived!

Once I get it unpacked, etc., I'll look into the upgrade. I have a plate of steel to weld on, and the new lock.

I'll post here my progress.

Hi, Madisonian ,

Any news on your lock replacement project progress ? I bought the same saf,e and I am going to put in a more reliable lock too. Not sure which one, though. I am not averse to mechanical locks, but would not want to do much welding

Thanks.

 

[Madisonian]

Hi, Madisonian ,

Any news on your lock replacement project progress ? I bought the same saf,e and I am going to put in a more reliable lock too. Not sure which one, though. I am not averse to mechanical locks, but would not want to do much welding

Thanks.

Hey there,

I got the safe and found the plastic lock bezel partially broken as many have reported experiencing. I am removing it, but got distracted with another project. I bought an S&G 6123 electronic lock. Will not require much welding at all if I don't weld a plate to the door. Might put a hard plate inside if I can find one already made for this lock, and cheap.

Truth is, for this kind of application you could fill any extra holes in the door with small carriage bolts, skip the welding and call it a day.

I also bought a couple of new S&G 6730's on eBay, cheap - $40 each. You might want to take a look there.

 

[tree]

Hey there,

I got the safe and found the plastic lock bezel partially broken as many have reported experiencing.

My first 91006 HF safe came via FedEx with a badly mangled chrome (or whatever) plated handle. So badly, in fact, that I cut my finger when trying to use it and not noticing the burrs. Interestingly, the plastic bevel was intact but the cardboard box took quite a bit of beating. Some dents on the side walls as well. I replaced the safe at a local HF store, the same day, with a more decent one.

I will certainly underatke the lock replacement project if no welding is involved. Last time I welded anything was more than 20 years ago.

Please keep us posted on your lock project progress if you have time...

Thanks.