I know it's an old post, but maybe he's subscribed.
So which is it? Determined thief or curious child? For a curious child, just get a cheap plastic trunk with a padlock for your pistol/ammo and keep a trigger lock on your rifle.
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Gun Safes
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I know it's an old post, but maybe he's subscribed.
So which is it? Determined thief or curious child? For a curious child, just get a cheap plastic trunk with a padlock for your pistol/ammo and keep a trigger lock on your rifle.
Does anyone have a recommendation for moving a safe? (for delivery that is) 600+ lbs. Up half a dozen cement stairs in to the house. Been quoted $600. That seems high to me. It's a relatively local delivery (Boston to Arlington)
That sounds about right unfortunately. If you were buying from Dick's or similar, they have delivery for about $400, but it's from a logistics company, so it's just some guys who deliver stuff(but do a good job. I priced out Mancini and a few others (pick up at store, drive across town, unload, 20 feet across lawn, a flight of stairs, another 40 feet or so) and they were all around $600.
Do you have a way to get it to your house? If you're really trying to save the $600 you could: Rent a U-Haul TRAILER (not a truck) - lots easier to get it out of a trailer than down out of the truck box. Cheaper too. Either buy - or rent a hand-cart. I know some of the better hand carts will handle 500-750 pounds. Even a good one will only run you at most a hundred dollars or so. And you'll have a hand cart when it's all said and done. Get a friend, and get a couple of 2x8's - put the 2x8's down on the steps - and manhandle the safe up the steps using the cart. Tie the safe down to the cart using a ratchet strap when you're doing it.
The other alternative to a hand cart is one of those appliance moving hand carts - I believe you can rent them at places like Home Depot. 600 pounds sounds like a lot - but it's really not that bad with 2 people and some means to move it.
Don't use a regular 2 wheel hand cart no matter the rating, use an appliance dolly. Appliance dollies will work fine and they won't let the safe tip beyond the recovery point of the plain 2 wheel dolly.
I do believe the price is close for anyone that moves safes for a living. They may use a powered stair climbing dolly and those are pricey. I have moved mine several times and I can tell you one wrong move and you or a friend will never try it again.
I do believe the price is close for anyone that moves safes for a living. They may use a powered stair climbing dolly and those are pricey. I have moved mine several times and I can tell you one wrong move and you or a friend will never try it again.
well...went and did some more safe shopping today. and shockingly(not)...bought a BIGGER safe ![[rolleyes]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/042.gif "Roll Eyes [rolleyes]")
But first floor in home delivery only added about $200 to the bill.
Can't say we were comparing apples to apples because we got a bigger safe, different mfg, etc. But in the end we're happy and don't have to potentially hurt ourselves getting it in place![[grin]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/041.gif "Grin [grin]")
But first floor in home delivery only added about $200 to the bill.
Can't say we were comparing apples to apples because we got a bigger safe, different mfg, etc. But in the end we're happy and don't have to potentially hurt ourselves getting it in place
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LOL! If you can't tell I'm very anxious/excited. I've also already bought a red dot & foregrip for the AR15 I want to buy plus a tac light for the pistol I want for home defense
![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
This is already adding up, but f*** it! Oh yeah, and I got a case for transport.LOL! If you can't tell I'm very anxious/excited. I've also already bought a red dot & foregrip for the AR15 I want to buy plus a tac light for the pistol I want for home defense
Make sure you learn to shoot iron sites too! You wanna make sure you can still put down a zombie at 100 yrds when your optic dies.
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Don't worry - I've played plenty of Left 4 Dead on Xbox/PC - I'm well versed in zombie killing
- frying pan right to the face
Cheap biometric readers suck. They aren't fast or reliable.
Personally, for handgun lockboxes (don't kid yourself that these are safes), I prefer a simple Simplex pushbutton lock. They work.
Amazon.com: V-Line Top Draw Security Case (Black): Sports & Outdoors
Yup, that'll work.
Those look interesting ... Ive read that simplex locks can be defeated by brute force in a short amount of time...
Maybe it's still the best option for a bedside handgun in terms of convenience and reliability.
I suppose I could move the gun into a full size safe when Im not home, but that seems like a lot of transferring back and forth every day.
Perhaps I should just invest in a home security camera +/- alarm system?
Maybe it's still the best option for a bedside handgun in terms of convenience and reliability.
I suppose I could move the gun into a full size safe when Im not home, but that seems like a lot of transferring back and forth every day.
Perhaps I should just invest in a home security camera +/- alarm system?
As I said before, these are lockboxes. Don't kid yourself that they are safes -- they aren't.
Any of these lockboxes can be defeated by brute force in a very short amount of time. There is no need to run through the combinations to try to open one of these. Any decent screwdriver will do. That is true of lock boxes with simplex locks, those with digital locks, those with key locks, etc.
Some years back, the folks behind Women and Guns magazine bought a bunch of these boxes and brought them to our gun club. There, they asked the caretaker's kids (middle school age and younger, if I recall correctly) to try to break in. When the caretaker's oldest asked if he could use his Dad's Sawzall, they said no. But that didn't matter. They got into all of the lockboxes with a screwdriver in just a few minutes.
Even if the lockbox itself was very secure, a decent crowbar will pull it off of whatever it is bolted down to. The robber will then cart it off and break into it at his leisure.
These lockboxes will help keep honest people honest. They won't stop a smash-and-grab robber. A gun safe will stop the smash-and-grab types, but won't stop anyone with time, tools, and a bit of knowledge. A gun safe is 600 lbs and up.
A real safe will stop the average person with time, tools, and a bit of knowledge. They will only slow down a pro for a while. A real safe is several thousand pounds (and lots of $$$).
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Review: Harbor Freight Model 91006 1.5 cubic foot Electronic Digital Safe
Review summary:
1. As is, as a safe: One star - no good.
2. As a solid, secure container, for the money: Five stars.
3. Value when fitted with a good lock: Five stars.
I purchased this safe as a bedroom-area jewelry, valuables, and handgun safe. The threat protected against are amateur smash and grab thieves. The house is alarmed and monitored, so this should suffice, as all but the true professional crook would likely fail to bypass the security system and would probably not attempt to break this free from its bolted-in placement and run out the door with it as the alarm is blaring and the cops are on the way.
I wrote a long and detailed review of this on Harbor Freight's website but it has been removed, maybe because I pointed out its vulnerabilities or posted links to youtube videos addressing the same. I thought I'd post it here since this is firearm safe related, and this is a thoughtful and interesting community who might appreciate it. I certainly have learned a lot on this site.
I'll preface this by saying that I've done a ton of research on safes and locks in the past month or so; I'm an engineer, and I can be quite obsessive in these matters. I am not, however, a lock and safe professional, so please keep that in mind as you read this. In addition, one important caveat: I don't actually have the safe yet; it's on the way, slow-boat shipping from HF. After I get it I'll update this review as necessary.
I bought the safe online. It was on sale for $119.99, as it is now, and eligible for $6.99 shipping; I had received a 20% coupon in my email, so I got it for about $108.
Here's the link to the product:
Electronic Digital Floor Safe
First, per the specs, it's an excellent container for the money. The box is 9 gauge, which is thicker than most gun safes out there; certainly thicker than any of the gun safes I've seen in the discount retailers. The door is 5 gauge with a 6 gauge door jamb, also excellent. For reference, 9 gauge steel is 0.1495", 5 is 0.2092" and 6 is 0.1943".
That's the good news. Now the bad.
The lock on this safe is a very common electronic lock assembly used on small hotel safes, small lock boxes, and so forth. It consists of a keypad, override lock cylinder, and latch knob all on a single plastic console. The battery for the keypad is inside, hence the need for the override lock. There is a reset button, also inside, for resetting the combination.
It is very easily defeated!
This is somewhat the opposite of the low end (<$2,000 to $3,000) gun safes, which usually have very good Group 2 mechanical or electronic combination locks, but easily penetrable containers: 11 or 12 gauge steel boxes that can be cut open quickly with tool the crook can find in your basement.
The lock on this HF safe is vulnerable in at least three ways. First, there is the simple brute force attack: chisel off the entire plastic console, leaving the override lock cylinder and the latch knob. The lock cylinder is then chiseled off, and a finger inserted into the whole where it was can trip the latch so the latch know knob can be turned, opening the safe. Very quick and simple. Here's an after the fact summary video of this (different box, same lock; German language, but you'll get the idea):
Tresor knacken.wmv - YouTube
The second attack is via the override lock cylinder. This is a very simple wafer cylinder, and someone with a little knowledge and simple, homemade picking tools can be into this in less than a minute - about 20 seconds in this video. Check it out:
Picking and bypassing a simple safe - YouTube
In addition, that video shows what I thought was the most brilliant attack on this safe, via the combination reset button: 13 seconds. If no mounting hole is available to probe, you could conceivably drill it, but there's an even easier way, as shown here; not exactly the same front panel on this safe, but the same mechanism. Fast forward to 2:33:
Security Expert Breaks into the AMSEC ES1014 Lock in Under One Minute - YouTube
So, you see, this safe as it comes form HF is not at all secure, and can be compromised in under a minute by any one of three different attacks. I would not be comfortable leaving firearms in this, as even a clever young person in your family could get in, not to mention a serious crook.
Here's my plan. My wife insists on a keypad combination lock, and it's true, the safe won't get used if she has to twirl the dial on a mechanical combination lock. I found and bought on eBay an excellent, Group 2 digital electronic combination lock, a Sargent and Greenleaf (S&G) 6123 lock.
This guy has a bunch of them (no connection to this seller):
Brand New Sargent and Greenleaf s G 6123 Electronic Safe Lock | eBay
These go for about $400 new through normal outlets, I'm led to believe, and are a $200 upgrade from a good mechanical lock through a safe dealer. This guy sells them for $124, free shipping, a good deal. You might even be interested if you have a large gun safe with a mechanical lock. If it's an S&G 6730 or similar, it will literally bolt right in.
True, this lock cost me more than the safe! But, at the end of the day a box this good with a lock this good is a steal at $225.
One more step, though. Once I remove the original lock I will weld a plate of steel over the area where the old lock was, and drill it for the new lock. See the first video to get an idea of what the face of the door looks like without the original lock. I may have to modify the boltwork for the new lock, but I'm thinking probably not, just locate the new lock properly.
There are other ways of attaching a plate and fitting a lock that are to the standard of security expected of this box, but I won't post them here for security reasons.
So, there you have it. My review summary again:
1. As is, as a safe: One star - no good.
2. As a solid, secure container, for the money: Five stars.
3. Value when fitted with a good lock: Five stars.
Cheers,
M
Review summary:
1. As is, as a safe: One star - no good.
2. As a solid, secure container, for the money: Five stars.
3. Value when fitted with a good lock: Five stars.
I purchased this safe as a bedroom-area jewelry, valuables, and handgun safe. The threat protected against are amateur smash and grab thieves. The house is alarmed and monitored, so this should suffice, as all but the true professional crook would likely fail to bypass the security system and would probably not attempt to break this free from its bolted-in placement and run out the door with it as the alarm is blaring and the cops are on the way.
I wrote a long and detailed review of this on Harbor Freight's website but it has been removed, maybe because I pointed out its vulnerabilities or posted links to youtube videos addressing the same. I thought I'd post it here since this is firearm safe related, and this is a thoughtful and interesting community who might appreciate it. I certainly have learned a lot on this site.
I'll preface this by saying that I've done a ton of research on safes and locks in the past month or so; I'm an engineer, and I can be quite obsessive in these matters. I am not, however, a lock and safe professional, so please keep that in mind as you read this. In addition, one important caveat: I don't actually have the safe yet; it's on the way, slow-boat shipping from HF. After I get it I'll update this review as necessary.
I bought the safe online. It was on sale for $119.99, as it is now, and eligible for $6.99 shipping; I had received a 20% coupon in my email, so I got it for about $108.
Here's the link to the product:
Electronic Digital Floor Safe
First, per the specs, it's an excellent container for the money. The box is 9 gauge, which is thicker than most gun safes out there; certainly thicker than any of the gun safes I've seen in the discount retailers. The door is 5 gauge with a 6 gauge door jamb, also excellent. For reference, 9 gauge steel is 0.1495", 5 is 0.2092" and 6 is 0.1943".
That's the good news. Now the bad.
The lock on this safe is a very common electronic lock assembly used on small hotel safes, small lock boxes, and so forth. It consists of a keypad, override lock cylinder, and latch knob all on a single plastic console. The battery for the keypad is inside, hence the need for the override lock. There is a reset button, also inside, for resetting the combination.
It is very easily defeated!
This is somewhat the opposite of the low end (<$2,000 to $3,000) gun safes, which usually have very good Group 2 mechanical or electronic combination locks, but easily penetrable containers: 11 or 12 gauge steel boxes that can be cut open quickly with tool the crook can find in your basement.
The lock on this HF safe is vulnerable in at least three ways. First, there is the simple brute force attack: chisel off the entire plastic console, leaving the override lock cylinder and the latch knob. The lock cylinder is then chiseled off, and a finger inserted into the whole where it was can trip the latch so the latch know knob can be turned, opening the safe. Very quick and simple. Here's an after the fact summary video of this (different box, same lock; German language, but you'll get the idea):
Tresor knacken.wmv - YouTube
The second attack is via the override lock cylinder. This is a very simple wafer cylinder, and someone with a little knowledge and simple, homemade picking tools can be into this in less than a minute - about 20 seconds in this video. Check it out:
Picking and bypassing a simple safe - YouTube
In addition, that video shows what I thought was the most brilliant attack on this safe, via the combination reset button: 13 seconds. If no mounting hole is available to probe, you could conceivably drill it, but there's an even easier way, as shown here; not exactly the same front panel on this safe, but the same mechanism. Fast forward to 2:33:
Security Expert Breaks into the AMSEC ES1014 Lock in Under One Minute - YouTube
So, you see, this safe as it comes form HF is not at all secure, and can be compromised in under a minute by any one of three different attacks. I would not be comfortable leaving firearms in this, as even a clever young person in your family could get in, not to mention a serious crook.
Here's my plan. My wife insists on a keypad combination lock, and it's true, the safe won't get used if she has to twirl the dial on a mechanical combination lock. I found and bought on eBay an excellent, Group 2 digital electronic combination lock, a Sargent and Greenleaf (S&G) 6123 lock.
This guy has a bunch of them (no connection to this seller):
Brand New Sargent and Greenleaf s G 6123 Electronic Safe Lock | eBay
These go for about $400 new through normal outlets, I'm led to believe, and are a $200 upgrade from a good mechanical lock through a safe dealer. This guy sells them for $124, free shipping, a good deal. You might even be interested if you have a large gun safe with a mechanical lock. If it's an S&G 6730 or similar, it will literally bolt right in.
True, this lock cost me more than the safe! But, at the end of the day a box this good with a lock this good is a steal at $225.
One more step, though. Once I remove the original lock I will weld a plate of steel over the area where the old lock was, and drill it for the new lock. See the first video to get an idea of what the face of the door looks like without the original lock. I may have to modify the boltwork for the new lock, but I'm thinking probably not, just locate the new lock properly.
There are other ways of attaching a plate and fitting a lock that are to the standard of security expected of this box, but I won't post them here for security reasons.
So, there you have it. My review summary again:
1. As is, as a safe: One star - no good.
2. As a solid, secure container, for the money: Five stars.
3. Value when fitted with a good lock: Five stars.
Cheers,
M
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DO NOT BUY THE S&G 6120 OR 6123!!!
I drill these digital locks open every single day due to lock FAILURE!!. This is NOT a good upgrade. I have been in the safe business for about 8 years these locks are NOT reliable..
A good reliable lock is LAGARD or AMSEC ESL series.. I install these locks in Banks where tellers use them 100 times a day with minimal failure.
The S&G company has a very reliable Mechanical lock but as far as the electronic 6120 it gives the electronic lock a bad name.
Just my Professional opinion![[cheers]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/018.gif "Cheers [cheers]")
I drill these digital locks open every single day due to lock FAILURE!!. This is NOT a good upgrade. I have been in the safe business for about 8 years these locks are NOT reliable..
A good reliable lock is LAGARD or AMSEC ESL series.. I install these locks in Banks where tellers use them 100 times a day with minimal failure.
The S&G company has a very reliable Mechanical lock but as far as the electronic 6120 it gives the electronic lock a bad name.
Just my Professional opinion
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Hey there, I just received mine - noticed it was in the garage, I guess my wife forgot to tell me it arrived!
Once I get it unpacked, etc., I'll look into the upgrade. I have a plate of steel to weld on, and the new lock.
I'll post here my progress.
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DO NOT BUY THE S&G 6120 OR 6123!!!
I drill these digital locks open every single day due to lock FAILURE!!. This is NOT a good upgrade. I have been in the safe business for about 8 years these locks are NOT reliable..
A good reliable lock is LAGARD or AMSEC ESL series.. I install these locks in Banks where tellers use them 100 times a day with minimal failure.
The S&G company has a very reliable Mechanical lock but as far as the electronic 6120 it gives the electronic lock a bad name.
Just my Professional opinion
Holy Cow, really? I just received my 6123.
Can you please be more specific about the lock failure? I take it it's not an external keypad failure, it's the internal lock mechanism?
Thanks,
M
DO NOT BUY THE S&G 6120 OR 6123!!!
...
Just my Professional opinion
Hi,
Could you please share your opinion on the fllowing two locks:
4505798 (Black Nickel), 4505763 (Brass), 4505764 (Chrome) $145.00
0615867 (Black Nickel), 0615770 (Brass), 0615772 (Chrome) $220.00
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...sg=AFQjCNGpev3ifv-eRJY7dwYaEOf3oXRsyw&cad=rja
Thanks.
The Biggest issue with s&g lock, is the bolt is retracted by a motor. Off of the motor there is a Brass threaded shaft that fits into a plastic nut (some locks have plastic some have brass) and that threaded shaft strips out not allowing the bolt to retract causing a lock out. ( without picture im not sure if you can follow me.
The Lagard and the Amsec rely on a much more Basic design. A solenoid (glorified magnet) That moves a pin so the bolt can retract being much more reliable because of less moving parts.
TREE, what you are talking about is a ESL 10 that is a very reliable digital lock we sell them for about $210 as far as the black brass and chrome they are all the same that is just the color of the keypad. the 06** model is the type of bolt that the lock retracts, just a different application depending on how your safe is set up.
And guys!! Be VERY careful changing out your own locks, on most safes there is a part in the boltwork called re-lockers, when you take your lock apart to replace it with something else, if you dont set up the re-locker correctly, back in its original position, you close the door, the re-locker fires and you will be calling someone like me to come over and DRILL it open..
This small mistake could cost you $300- $500 drilling open and repairing the safe depending on the brand.
Anthony
Mancini Safe Co.
The Lagard and the Amsec rely on a much more Basic design. A solenoid (glorified magnet) That moves a pin so the bolt can retract being much more reliable because of less moving parts.
TREE, what you are talking about is a ESL 10 that is a very reliable digital lock we sell them for about $210 as far as the black brass and chrome they are all the same that is just the color of the keypad. the 06** model is the type of bolt that the lock retracts, just a different application depending on how your safe is set up.
And guys!! Be VERY careful changing out your own locks, on most safes there is a part in the boltwork called re-lockers, when you take your lock apart to replace it with something else, if you dont set up the re-locker correctly, back in its original position, you close the door, the re-locker fires and you will be calling someone like me to come over and DRILL it open..
This small mistake could cost you $300- $500 drilling open and repairing the safe depending on the brand.
Anthony
Mancini Safe Co.
All I know is that they don't offer installation services. You have to order it, shipped to the store, and you pick it up there. Sort of a PITA if you ask me.
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Thanks Anthony! It's so good to have a real safe professional, and expert, commenting on this. I have a Mancini safe, a smaller one - it has a Mancini label on it, it's a Safeguard SD-107.
Anyway, thanks for the caution on the relockers. The little safe I'm wrote the review on has no such thing.
On the S&G 6123, I would like to go ahead and use it, since I own it and can't return it. Is there something that can be done to correct this fault? It's incredible that S&G could make such a weak design. I can't imagine how the screw or nut could strip, unless the motor keeps turning after it the bolt hits a mechanical limit. I take it you've done some forensics on the failed locks?
Is this something I can drill myself if it fails, in a simple safe as the one I reviewed?
Thanks,
M
