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Glock 34 or Hk VP 9 range gun/house gun, which would you prefer?
- Thread starter AndyJM58
- Start date
You are still blowing smoke by claiming it is $10. It isn't.
I can get new Glock magazines from Brownells for $24.99. HK P30 magazines from Midway USA are 42.99 to 57.99. So the difference in price is $18 to $33 each. I keep a minimum of 6 magazines for a gun that I carry, so assuming the gun comes with two magazines, I have to buy 4 spares. That is $99.96 for the Glock and $171.96 to $231.96 for the HK, for a difference of $72 - $130.
Now, as I said previously, you may decide that on balance you still prefer the HK. That's a perfectly reasonable decision. But don't claim the difference is $10. It isn't and you know it.
Sounds like you're introducing things that aren't on the table (like old shitty glock mags) to make your argument. We're not talking about a gun with old shitty mags here vs a new HK. How many mags is your friend using with his G19? (eg, in rotation?) What generation were the mags to begin with?
In free america I have a set of postban glock 17 mags, modern, dual ambi cut mags... that has at least 6000+ rounds or so distributed over about 8 magazines. I use them in a G34 and a G17. I haven't had to replace anything yet. I clean them about once a year. They get filthy. I imagine in the next year or so I will have to replace the springs eventually.
I've also owned a shitload of HK mags in the past, I don't see them as being "better" just different. In a select few cases, they're actually worse, because the germans didn't seem to account for things like springs taking a set, etc. Thankfully this issue is rare, I only ever noticed it on USP .45 Compact mags. For those the wolff springs were invaluable.
The problem is even if the Glock mags wear faster, it's offset by the fact that I can buy more of them for the same amount of money. If I have to pay $50 or $60 for an HK mag, I can get 2 Glock mags for the price of the one HK mag and spread out the wear among more magazines, reducing the interval that I have to replace stuff anyways. Even if the Glock part lifespan is only 75% of the HK lifespan, you're still making out ahead. Then on top of this we have Magpul introducing G17 mags and likely others into the fray.
Even the S&W M&P platform, mags are cheaper too if you know where to look.
-Mike
No, you're blowing some smoke-, it's often $20 or more. If I blow $300 bucks on magazines, I get 11 Glock mags (and have change left over) and 6 HK mags (assuming a lower price of 50 bucks). Not sure what is so hard to understand about that. It'll be worse once the magpul product comes out. Not to mention picking up marginally used Glock mags on the cheap is possible; (say for like $20 ea or so) with an HK its pretty much difficult or impossible. It's easier for me to find M&P or XD mags barely used than HK mags.
I just ****ing hate it because it reminds me of companies like Lexmark that sell you a cheap printer and then dry rape you on their branded ink cartridges. IT's a shitty business model, and there's no way in hell those mags cost anywhere near $50-60 to make. The reason they do this of course is obvious, because the HK fanbois will pay the price without question.
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
(and I know this because I was one of those people, and I just paid the price, as you suggest, because the platform meant enough to me to buy the mags I needed... looking back though, it was kinda retarded)-Mike
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Even with HK mags being so much more expensive than Glock, I do not think that should make or break the OP's decision of which gun to go with...if so, it would be for the wrong reasons.
What is to say that the OP buys the HK, sits on his two (or however many are included) mags, and gradually purchases more over time? Yeah, buying a brand new HK and 89403580 mags to go with it would sting, but, (at least for myself), that is not how I do things...Ive aquired mags over the years as needed for my various handguns- The thought of not purchasing or purchasing a FIREARM based on the number of magazines included or the price of them never enters into the equation..for me, it is all about how the gun feels- the rest is just details.
What is to say that the OP buys the HK, sits on his two (or however many are included) mags, and gradually purchases more over time? Yeah, buying a brand new HK and 89403580 mags to go with it would sting, but, (at least for myself), that is not how I do things...Ive aquired mags over the years as needed for my various handguns- The thought of not purchasing or purchasing a FIREARM based on the number of magazines included or the price of them never enters into the equation..for me, it is all about how the gun feels- the rest is just details.
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No, you're blowing some smoke-, it's often $20 or more. If I blow $300 bucks on magazines, I get 11 Glock mags (and have change left over) and 6 HK mags (assuming a lower price of 50 bucks). Not sure what is so hard to understand about that. It'll be worse once the magpul product comes out. Not to mention picking up marginally used Glock mags on the cheap is possible; (say for like $20 ea or so) with an HK its pretty much difficult or impossible. It's easier for me to find M&P or XD mags barely used than HK mags.
I just ****ing hate it because it reminds me of companies like Lexmark that sell you a cheap printer and then dry rape you on their branded ink cartridges. IT's a shitty business model, and there's no way in hell those mags cost anywhere near $50-60 to make. The reason they do this of course is obvious, because the HK fanbois will pay the price without question.
-Mike
I understand what your saying! Not doubting that they should be cheaper...That's not what i'm debating. Stuff is expensive in this hobby.... Not buying a $600 gun because your spare mag or 2 is gonna cost $20-$30 more than the M&P or Glock mag doesn't make sense to me.
dcmdon
NES Member
This is reason enough to buy the Glock.
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If you are one of those people who buy one or 2 spare mags.
The Glock comes with 3.
I like to have 10 mags minimum. Thats 7 at $20 for the Magpul = 140.
The HK comes with 2. Thats 8 at $50 each = $400
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Don't get me wrong. If the HK was a functionally superior firearm, then it would be worth it. But its not.
If the HK fits your hand and you shoot it better, then its worth it. But thats an unknown unless you can shoot them side by side.
Also note that I said fits your hand AND YOU SHOOT IT BETTER. I say this because most people like the way the M&P feels in their hand better than how the Glock feels in their hand. But most don't shoot the M&P better. You may like the way the HK feels better, but if you shoot the glock bettter then it doesn't matter.
Add in the fact that the glock trigger is better and that its more easily tunable and I dont' see the comparison.
Don
p.s. This summer I was practicing for Walls of Steel in RI. Its a great fun event and a good friend who i dont' see very often and I meet up and shoot it. We have little grudge trophys that we exchange. Its a good time. I wanted to do as well as possible. I have 3 very nice 9mm pistols that would be appropriate for this event. One is a tweaked G34. But my wife was shooting that. The other was a G35 with a KKM 9mm conversion barrel and the other was very very nice Dan Wesson Pointman 9 1911.
The 1911 is a much much nicer gun in every way than the Glock. It felt better. The trigger was single action wonderful with a perfect break at 2.8 lbs (actyually measured, not guestimated).
I practiced with eacy. Then one day I want out with my wife, my timer, both guns, and a pile of ammo and shot plates. Guess what? I was consistently faster with the Glock. I don't know why. I didn't want to be faster. I wanted to shoot the pretty 1911 with the glass rod break trigger.
In the end, I shot the glock and beat my friend. A good time was had by all.
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My VP came with 2 15rd mags. 2 more cost me $80. Price of mags shouldn't make or break your decision. If everyone used that logic this world would be full of Hyundai sonatas because BMW's(etc)are more expensive for oil changes. Which is fine...But I gravitate to nicer things.
Ok, ok. So you pulled the awful prices from Midway. Check out a reasonable vendor, with $5 priority flat rate shipping: http://www.crosscreekguns.com/HKmags.html
$39.50 for the VP9/P30 15 rders
$51.50 for the 10 rders
The difference is 15/mag in free states, 25/mag in MA. With the purchase of 4 additional mags, you pay $60-100 more.
Also, if you scan those mags prices for currently produced HKs, almost all are under $35 each, with the notable exceptions of the HK45 and P30.
Frankly, P30 to USP mags are an apples to oranges comparison. To be really fair, we should look at guns of similar age, with similar types of mags (polymer vs metal), with similar availabilities. So we should be comparing polymer USP mag prices ($30 each) with the polymer G17 mags. In that case, the difference is only $5! So, let's not make mag prices the be all and end all here.
I think it's a perfectly valid reason. Cost of ownership (and maintenance) is a big deal for some. It might not be for you, but it is for others. For example we have a lot of skinflints around here that won't buy anything more than like a Ruger SR9. Do I think being that much of a skinflint is stupid? Sure... but it's their money, not mine. Maybe they just want a cheap gun and they have a limited budget, or something. Obviously there's a line you can cross, like buying a Taurus or a HiPoint, that is going full retard, but that's generally the exception, and most people aren't that stupid. I'll get to this more in a moment....
If you're a collector or a casual shooter, or a pure noob, then fine, I get that. but if you actually shoot the things with the intent of murdering paper or possibly bad guys with it, with great frequency, different story. For me, buying a "duty style" gun with 2 mags and shooting it once in awhile (or letting it collect dust in my safe) for several months does almost nothing for me. If I buy a handgun and its anything other than a small pocket pistol or subcompact, I get pissed off if I have anything less than 4 magazines, 6+ is comfortable and 10-12+ is optimal. I like to get shit done, or at least mostly done, too, I don't like having a gun in the safe that isn't "done". It makes me not want to shoot it. I don't have more than a few pending mods here and there for most of my stuff, and none of it is critical work or addons. A classic example was the Savage 10FP I had. Great rifle, but it had shitty glass on it. As a result of it having shitty glass mounted on it, I rarely shot the damned thing. It was better for me to SELL the thing than it was to keep it, with shitty glass on it. In hindsight I should have never bought the thing to begin with, without considering what it would have cost me to reglass it from the POS millet thing that was on the gun. I feel the same way about a pistol in my safe that isn't configured with whatever minimum degree of what I think I should have for that pistol, whether its mods , mags, accessories, etc. I'm just not going to buy a handgun if I can't get 4+ mags for it immediately without breaking the bank. A semiauto handgun with 2 mags is almost a paperweight for me. I also have this thing where if I'm going to carry it or use it for HD, the mags sitting in the gun (or queued up for a reload) must be spotless. So I train with one set of mags and keep another set of mags that are only tested but otherwise are only used "in service". This makes it so I can get away with not having to clean the mags as much, and I can just use the training mags until they get so dirty that they stop working or whatever. (Eventually cleaning guns stops being "fun" and its just a ****ing pain in the ass, everyone hits this at a different point in their life, but I think I hit it about oh, 5 or 6 yrs ago... I forget... )
Another problem with not getting the gun "done" is when you NEEDed the 6-10 mags, say when you decide to shoot a training course, or use it for USPSA, or whatever the case may be.... murphys law dictates that some massive nutcase phaggot like an Adam Lanza will suddenly **** up the entire market, and make the magazine you need unobtainium for a year. Or some shithead like Obama will have some stupid decree that makes the tinfoilers go full retard. (Look at this M855 debacle, they haven't even actually banned the stuff yet, but instead of fighting the ban everyone shits themselves with fear and buys it all. ) Or the market will be in a "just plain weird" state (eg because the prices have fallen, and the manufs back off production to bring the prices back up) and you won't be able to get the mags you want, for some other reason. It's happened with various gun items at one point or another. Getting things up front, ASAP, is generally the best insulation-type of medicine for this kind of crap. Hell even when I sold handguns I kept most of the
mags just for this reason.
WRT the above, package cost does matter, to some degree. Maybe I'm just jaded/biased/stubborn on this, but I've owned over 26 handguns, most of them semiautos, and a handful of revolvers. (sadly I don't have most of them anymore, but that's another story). I'll just put it this way, things add up after awhile. Costs eventually do matter, unless you're clearing 6 or 7 figures on income. The cost of the package is part of the value proposition for me, particularly when we're talking a polymer framed, striker fired handgun. HK has put themselves in this arena with the VP9 and now they need to face the same criticisms that everyone else gets, and a big component of that criteria for a lot of people is going to be value. The VP9 is a lot better value gun wise (due to its $600ish price point) than most of the rest of their product line, but when it comes to the mags it falls flat, because this quickly pushes the package cost back up into the overpriced HK fanboi murderzone...
If money is no object, then no big deal... but for some of us it is a consideration. It's not even that I don't have the money- it's that I want to spend that money, that I would have wasted on the overpriced HK mags, on other things. Like extra mags, spare parts that might break, etc. I might opine, and make a WAG that money is a limitation, because otherwise the OP in this thread wouldn't have bothered to ask "either or" instead he would have never posted anything, and he'd simply buy both guns at once, shoot both, and then dump the one he didn't like... I mean that is what most of us would do, if money didn't matter. Hell most of us would probably keep both if it didn't matter.
-Mike
dcmdon
NES Member
You conveniently clipped my post to make it look like cost was the reason I said you should buy a glock.
The cost was added as an afterthought. the comment "thats reason enough to buy a glock" was in reference to the part you conveniently snipped off. Which queen bee's quote comment that standard capacity magazines are available to MA folks for the Glock and not the HK.
If you are looking for a functional firearm, I don't know anyone, even an honest HK person who would rather have 11 rounds in an HK vs 18 rounds in a Glock.
Don
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No, you just want to do that to confuse the argument. You can't use a USP mag in a VP9, so the comparison is irrelevant here. Nobody brought the USP into this except you.
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
This is like saying a Beretta is awesome because I can get great mags for it for $15 apiece. Let's at least compare stuff in the same realm. The USP is a nice gun but it is a DA/SA school bus class, not modern striker fired class. USP full size 9mm and .40 S&W mags are more like Glock style mags, plastic with some kind of metal liner or all plastic.
The USP .45 mags always had some kind of a steel body with a plastic floorplate. USPc mags always had a steel body with plastic floorplate.
The worst was the cripplemags on guns like the USPc 9 or .40.... they had this shitty floorplate setup that if you dropped a loaded mag on concrete or asphalt and it hit the wrong way, the mag could basically explode when the tabs break, and the mag will puke its guts all over the ground, and its worthless until you get more floorplate parts. Whenever I brought my USPc to a range with a concrete pad I always told my friends I was shooting with, much like the "Black Head of the CIA" to take heed of the "DONT DROP THAT SHIT!!!!" type warning.
I hope in the P30/VP9 they stopped using that crap for the cripplemags. -Mike
Mike-
The thoroughness and lengths of your posts continue to astonish me! I hear what you are saying. I must admit, I am just unfairly assuming the OP is somewhat early in his journey to find a good all around handgun and thus get into the sport/hobby/obsession of owning firearms (someone with more experience probably would not have asked such a broad question- we are talking about two COMPLETELY different firearms with completely different "fanbois").
Before I forget..."skinflints"...awesome!
I picture the OP taking the gun to the range a couple times per month and putting holes in paper- aside from that, it will probably be in a night stand or something along those lines. When purchasing a new handgun, YOU may buy six mags with it to have your ready service locker, a couple for the range, etc...From the limited background we know about the OP, I do not think that is the case. If he gets more into this sickness, down the road, buying three more mags for a gun that he loves wont be too much of a pull.
At least for me, the amount of mags or how many I get with the box do not dictate what firearms I buy- If I like it enough, I will sacrifice a less used gun and buy mags or sell M855 for $1.10/rnd to save the money..eg, my X5's mags cost ~$90 a piece. It came with three, and Ive purchased 3 more since I bought it last year- With that money, I couldve bought a new Taurus. I would rather have one gun that I shoot great/am comfortable with then two cheaper ones that I am not..
-Dan
The thoroughness and lengths of your posts continue to astonish me! I hear what you are saying. I must admit, I am just unfairly assuming the OP is somewhat early in his journey to find a good all around handgun and thus get into the sport/hobby/obsession of owning firearms (someone with more experience probably would not have asked such a broad question- we are talking about two COMPLETELY different firearms with completely different "fanbois").
Before I forget..."skinflints"...awesome!
I picture the OP taking the gun to the range a couple times per month and putting holes in paper- aside from that, it will probably be in a night stand or something along those lines. When purchasing a new handgun, YOU may buy six mags with it to have your ready service locker, a couple for the range, etc...From the limited background we know about the OP, I do not think that is the case. If he gets more into this sickness, down the road, buying three more mags for a gun that he loves wont be too much of a pull.
At least for me, the amount of mags or how many I get with the box do not dictate what firearms I buy- If I like it enough, I will sacrifice a less used gun and buy mags or sell M855 for $1.10/rnd to save the money..eg, my X5's mags cost ~$90 a piece. It came with three, and Ive purchased 3 more since I bought it last year- With that money, I couldve bought a new Taurus. I would rather have one gun that I shoot great/am comfortable with then two cheaper ones that I am not..
-Dan
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I own twice as many Glocks as I do HK's. I'm not a brand loyalist or fanboy. I don't cry about mag price when I have to spend a little more for my HK's and I don't cry when I have to remove the plastic sights from my glock and spend an extra $100 on decent ones.
I feel like the gap has been closed in the striker fired dept. For many years Glock owned the road....The VP does everything as well as the glock if not better...Same price point...Has modern day ergonomics...The only thing left to crap on is Mag price.
Beating a dead horse now...My old man will crap on the HK and the Glock...His 1911 is the best gun ever made!
I feel like the gap has been closed in the striker fired dept. For many years Glock owned the road....The VP does everything as well as the glock if not better...Same price point...Has modern day ergonomics...The only thing left to crap on is Mag price.
Beating a dead horse now...My old man will crap on the HK and the Glock...His 1911 is the best gun ever made!
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Don't be astonished just realize you're talking to a guy who did OK on SAT verbal but got a shitty math score, that should explain a lot.
I have this tendency to write in a style where I could reduce the word count and get the same point across. I don't bother to change it much because I can type reasonably fast so it's not so much of an impediment. That is very true, and perhaps I am unfairly assuming that he's eventually going to want to actually work the guns he buys. Like work as in, pour more than a 1000 rounds a year through the
thing. That sort of thing. I guess I just have this "thing" where I like to try to save decent people from making really stupid gun noob mistakes, etc, that I used to make. Now on the other hand if he has
all kinds of money and none of this matters, then indeed, none of it matters. He should just buy both guns.
![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
They're not really though, they're striker fired polymer framed handguns. These handguns are all more or less in the same class here or there, the only difference is the 34 has a longer slide and
barrel than most of the other guns in its class.
There are lots of them around here. There are a bunch of people in the PSA thread scraping for junk, trying to "build an AR for the cost of a case of ammunition and then wondering why its a piece of shit afterwards." I'm not necessarily against spending money to get the job done but on some things there are issues of value. I just have a hard time stomaching paying a crapload of money for a plastic gun and its accessories. Hell I had an MK23 and I could get mags for that thing cheaper than what the VP9 mags cost at a lot of sources.
It just annoys the crap out of me that HK hasdecided to rape their customer on an accessory. I'm of the mind that I'd rather the gun cost $800 with $25 mags. Just seems less dishonest to me. With rapey mags it seems like they're pulling a
fast one on the consumer. "Ja! Look at our new affordable pistol!" etc and then consumer hears Nirvana's "rape me" when he goes back to the gun shop to get a couple extra
mags for it.
$45-$60 mags on a commodity grade handgun is just kinda mind numbing to me, I guess. Even when I started out I still got annoyed at only having 2 mags. It meant that I had to clean that shit that much more often. It meant that I had to load and unload the mags constantly if it was going to be used as a defensive gun. Even when I had a Seecamp .32 POS I had at least one extra mag for that thing. Hell I have an SW22A that I never shoot... and I have 5 working magazines for that
gun... because 2 agitated me too much. I want to fill up 4 at once.
If we're talking about a Sig X5, you just got ripped off big time, because MecGar makes plenty of P226 aftermarkets for that gun, for short money. Like $30 or less. That worked great. Unless we're talking about
the crappy .40 version, then that's a whole other ballgame. My condolences if you bought one of those. (the one guy I know with the .40 X5 had nothing but problems with it)
The other thing is too, if you can afford an X5, particularly a full spec one (as opposed to a Competition, like what I had) you're not going to give a shit if the mags are $100 apiece anyways.
Let's not derail things, something like an X5 isn't even in the same like,universe, as the other 2 guns we just mentioned in this thread. Like for example if I can afford a P210 Classic or something I'm not going to care that it comes with one mag and the spares are 70 bucks or whatever they cost... its a P210. It's a goddamned ferrari.
I generally feel the same way but there are limitations with everything. I probably could shoot my CZ SP01 Shadow Custom Target better than any other handgun I ever owned, but that gun was not really suitable for CCW.
Strangely enough though for a premium grade handgun THE MAGAZINES WERE CHEAP. particularly aftermarkets. I mean there are some obvious things here- if a Glock is an ergonomic dumpster fire for the OP he should not buy it, but we don't have a lot of information to go off of here, its like hes narrowed down to 2 choices for whatever reason or another. Either is still a great gun, value issues notwithstanding....
-Mike
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Well, there's also the complexity issue too, if you want to rip down a VP9, you have fun with that... a monkey banging a football can take apart a Glock. Hell I did a connector swap for Atilla ON THE RANGE at MFL with a flashlight... doubt rooting around in the internals of the VP9 is that simple, but you could say that for a lot of non-Glocks.
And capacity density too, if someone actually cares about that. (not the end of the world for me) Not to mention the guns point differently, too, for different people.
I could get 10 shooters in a room and get a VP9, a Glock 17 Gen3 and Gen4, a Springfield XDm fullsize, and an S&W M&P fullsize (with non MA trigger at least), and a Ruger SR9. and preferences are not gonna line up between all the guns, not even close. A few will like them all, Most of the rest are probably only going to like one or two, and then a few will probably like ONLY one. Then there are the guys who will pick out the SR9 because "We are the cheapest!" etc.
-Mike
Yeah but come on Paul, if you had like, an SVI 2011, you'd be petting it every night before you went to sleep, too.
Funny thing about 2011s is ive seen some of those guns go tits up badly, just like 1911s... but most of those were some weird, half-breed mixmaster build type gun, not a "pure" factory gun with good mags like an STI or an SVI. Problem is you pay a lot to get into that club.
-Mike
Yeah but come on Paul, if you had like, an SVI 2011, you'd be petting it every night before you went to sleep, too.
Funny thing about 2011s is ive seen some of those guns go tits up badly, just like 1911s... but most of those were some weird, half-breed mixmaster build type gun, not a "pure" factory gun with good mags like an STI or an SVI. Problem is you pay a lot to get into that club.
-Mike
Heh, yes. Money tends to solve a lot of problems.
1911s, and derivatives, are great. Somehow though, it's like someone asking should I get a Toyota or spend extra on a BMW, and getting 'Koeniggsegg' for an answer.
2011 are the best guns made but mags are $150 a pop![[grin]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/041.gif "Grin [grin]")
Before or after they tuned?
No, you just want to do that to confuse the argument. You can't use a USP mag in a VP9, so the comparison is irrelevant here. Nobody brought the USP into this except you.
USP full size 9mm and .40 S&W mags are more like Glock style mags, plastic with some kind of metal liner or all plastic.
The USP .45 mags always had some kind of a steel body with a plastic floorplate. USPc mags always had a steel body with plastic floorplate.
The worst was the cripplemags on guns like the USPc 9 or .40.... they had this shitty floorplate setup that if you dropped a loaded mag on concrete or asphalt and it hit the wrong way, the mag could basically explode when the tabs break, and the mag will puke its guts all over the ground, and its worthless until you get more floorplate parts. Whenever I brought my USPc to a range with a concrete pad I always told my friends I was shooting with, much like the "Black Head of the CIA" to take heed of the "DONT DROP THAT SHIT!!!!" type warning.
-Mike
Thanks for the kind words, Mike. My primary intent was obviously to confuse the OP.
The person who brought the USP into it is the one who generalized that all HK mags are overpriced (instead of referring only to P30 mags). The former statement is highly debatable ($30 USP/P2000 vs $25 Glock), while the latter is, on the face of it, less so.
It does beg the question, however: why are P30 mags are so expensive? Or the corollary, why are Glock mags relatively cheap?
Potential factors :
1) Polymer mags are much cheaper to produce once molds are made
2) Glock mags are produced at greater scale
3) Manufacturing location and shipping costs
4) Different price elasticity curves for each company's mags. I suspect HK owners have less elastic demand curves and so would be more tolerant of increases in price. It seems unlikely that HK would make more money by selling more mags at a lower price. Could they sell the same number at a higher price? Maybe.
On the other hand, would glock make more total money by selling mags at a higher price? Maybe. Would they make more money selling them at a lower price? Also unlikely. Both companies seem to do well in their respective market niches.
There's no question P30 mags are expensive compared to Glock mags and that is no doubt the source of much of the griping about their price, but given the above factors, it's surprising more glock users aren't complaining about how much cheaper Glock mags should be. With what average unit cost must be for each company, I'd be surprised if the profit margins on each mag were all that different.
All of this being said (and this is all a bit of a truism in the firearms world), if a gun and mags constitute the bulk of OPs 5 year spending on firearm activities, he's probably better off with the glock. But if he shoots several thousand rounds a year, gun costs will be under 20 percent of 5 year total costs and the mags under 5 percent, so he should choose whichever platform he prefers without regard to price.
Either, since no one shoots factory mags. you are going to have to get new followers, springs and basepads anyways
Guns and mags aren't really the big expense when you start shooting 2011s a lot. Its feeding them that gets costly
Thanks for the kind words, Mike. My primary intent was obviously to confuse the OP.
The person who brought the USP into it is the one who generalized that all HK mags are overpriced (instead of referring only to P30 mags). The former statement is highly debatable ($30 USP/P2000 vs $25 Glock), while the latter is, on the face of it, less so.
It does beg the question, however: why are P30 mags are so expensive? Or the corollary, why are Glock mags relatively cheap?
Potential factors :
1) Polymer mags are much cheaper to produce once molds are made
2) Glock mags are produced at greater scale
3) Manufacturing location and shipping costs
4) Different price elasticity curves for each company's mags. I suspect HK owners have less elastic demand curves and so would be more tolerant of increases in price. It seems unlikely that HK would make more money by selling more mags at a lower price. Could they sell the same number at a higher price? Maybe.
On the other hand, would glock make more total money by selling mags at a higher price? Maybe. Would they make more money selling them at a lower price? Also unlikely. Both companies seem to do well in their respective market niches.
There's no question P30 mags are expensive compared to Glock mags and that is no doubt the source of much of the griping about their price, but given the above factors, it's surprising more glock users aren't complaining about how much cheaper Glock mags should be. With what average unit cost must be for each company, I'd be surprised if the profit margins on each mag were all that different.
All of this being said (and this is all a bit of a truism in the firearms world), if a gun and mags constitute the bulk of OPs 5 year spending on firearm activities, he's probably better off with the glock. But if he shoots several thousand rounds a year, gun costs will be under 20 percent of 5 year total costs and the mags under 5 percent, so he should choose whichever platform he prefers without regard to price.
Glock owners don't complain about glock mag prices because they're in the same ballpark as most of the other manufacturers, which is like $25-$35. The ones that are above $35 a pop are the outliers not the
average. HK is the most prominent of these outliers outside of specialty guns here and there.
Well, there's also option 5... which is "HK wants to make up the profit it lost by underpricing the VP9 compared to the rest of its guns, as well as all those $200 coupons they gave out, by raping on the magazines." It makes perfect sense. Rope the consumer in and now they're married to the thing (because it is a decent gun) just go dry rape with the mag prices and make some killer profit there. There is no way in hell those things cost anywhere near $40-$60 to make. If they actually cost anywhere near what they sell for, someone at HK should prolly get fired. It's a commodity part like a wheel or a tire. If MecGar can build a great magazine and sell it for like $25 on CDNN no reason why someone else can't do the same thing. If HK sucks that bad at making mags they should just have MecGar make them for them. It's not about that, though... it's because HK wants to make that extra profit, same way Lexmark and HP rape people for buying overpriced printer ink.
I agree with your TCO commentary, if we're looking at a 5 yr span... or if he's going to be heavy duty. Mags, springs, etc, get lost in the noise once you're pouring 10K down the tube every year. If he was prepared to spend that though I suspect he wouldn't have asked the question.
-Mike
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