Another gun myth or truth?

[jkelly1229]

I was watching outlaw whatever's channel for a review on the staccato

And he basically said a 2011 will shoot faster than any striker fired in the market

And I'll be honest I'm confused how

Same principals apply to both..

So go ahead educate me if he's right

Or is this some good old fashioned gun store wisdom

 

[frenchman]

Any gun will shoot as fast as you can pull the trigger. According to his logic, a revolver should be slower than both. Jerry Miculek disagrees.

 

[not new guy]

Does he mean it will stay on target between shots better? Still seems like a bold claim.

 

[jkelly1229]

Does he mean it will stay on target between shots better? Still seems like a bold claim.

He just said faster

I mean i understand a tuned staccato should shoot better than a glock but i was like no you're still limited by the slide mass and springs like you can't beat physics

 

[alx]

A 2011 can have a very nice short reset which will allow you to shoot faster. But unless you are doing something like USPSA "Can you Count" classifier where 0.01 sec difference in split times counts- it really doesnt matter. Essentially any gun will fire as fast as the trigger is pulled as the action is faster than the finger unless you are shooting big caliber long stroke rifle- then you can overrun the gun...

Until then- that guy just wants to sell you a Staccato

 

[jkelly1229]

A 2011 can have a very nice short reset which will allow you to shoot faster. But unless you are doing something like USPSA "Can you Count" classifier where 0.01 sec difference in split times counts- it really doesnt matter. Essentially any gun will fire as fast as the trigger is pulled as the action is faster than the finger unless you are shooting big caliber long stroke rifle- then you can overrun the gun...

Until then- that guy just wants to sell you a Staccato

Lol I'm not sure you need to "sell" someome a staccato

But yeah alright just gun counter bs

 

[allen-1]

I was watching outlaw whatever's channel for a review on the staccato

And he basically said a 2011 will shoot faster than any striker fired in the market

And I'll be honest I'm confused how

Same principals apply to both..

So go ahead educate me if he's right

Or is this some good old fashioned gun store wisdom

Maybe true, maybe false - but pretty much doesn't matter to 99.99??? % of shooters.

I've taken two competition oriented handgun classes. One by Steve Anderson, the other by Tim Herron. I ran the same firearm in both, my standard competition gun, a Glock 34 with an SRO.

They're both excellent instructors, and while they do have different methods of teaching they both cover same of the same ground.

They both taught that you should go to the range for practice sessions with a goal in mind, not just "go set up some targets and shoot". They also both taught that you should focus on speed -or- accuracy, but not both at the same time.

So, I'll go to the range, set up a couple targets at fairly close distance - and start with "speed". The goal there is consistent sub-second times from holster to on paper hit. After a while of doing that, I'll move to "accuracy". Little further back, and the goal is consistent 1.5 or better from holster to alpha.

The point of doing speed drills is to train the subconscious that YES - you CAN go that fast. Then slowing down a hair to be accurate is still fast.

I ran a drill in Steve's class - where under his guidance, I actually overran my gun. I was pulling the trigger faster than it could cycle. Until that moment, I didn't believe that was possible. Haven't done it since, but it was eye-opening.

Which is a very long winded way of saying "for the vast majority of us, the gun's fast enough - it's the guy holding it that's slow".

 

[jkelly1229]

Maybe true, maybe false - but pretty much doesn't matter to 99.99??? % of shooters.

I've taken two competition oriented handgun classes. One by Steve Anderson, the other by Tim Herron. I ran the same firearm in both, my standard competition gun, a Glock 34 with an SRO.

They're both excellent instructors, and while they do have different methods of teaching they both cover same of the same ground.

They both taught that you should go to the range for practice sessions with a goal in mind, not just "go set up some targets and shoot". They also both taught that you should focus on speed -or- accuracy, but not both at the same time.

So, I'll go to the range, set up a couple targets at fairly close distance - and start with "speed". The goal there is consistent sub-second times from holster to on paper hit. After a while of doing that, I'll move to "accuracy". Little further back, and the goal is consistent 1.5 or better from holster to alpha.

The point of doing speed drills is to train the subconscious that YES - you CAN go that fast. Then slowing down a hair to be accurate is still fast.

I ran a drill in Steve's class - where under his guidance, I actually overran my gun. I was pulling the trigger faster than it could cycle. Until that moment, I didn't believe that was possible. Haven't done it since, but it was eye-opening.

Which is a very long winded way of saying "for the vast majority of us, the gun's fast enough - it's the guy holding it that's slow".

That's pretty cool... id like to do that one time lol

even if you ovverrun your gun i feel like you can tune it after to get that extra little performance. But yeah I'm not jerry m and I shoot caniks obviously a superior gun/ sarc

A gun though is a striker...a hammer a slide and a recoil spring

I just can't see how a different setup of them beats physics.

 

[Darkslide]

A 2011 is faster than a striker fired if you factor in accuracy. If you’re just pulling the trigger as fast as possible without aiming, then it’s a wash. Just go to the range and compare them.

 

[jdsorr]

I came across a video the other day talking about this specific topic and they stated 1911 and 2011 are single action guns and the striker fired are TECHNICALLY double action due to the inner workings It was pretty interesting

 

[jkelly1229]

I came across a video the other day talking about this specific topic and they stated 1911 and 2011 are single action guns and the striker fired are TECHNICALLY double action due to the inner workings It was pretty interesting

But the motion is still the same right? Like slide goes back...cocks the hammer... comes forward bullet slides in.

Unless there is another piece that lets just use glocks have that takes an extra fraction of a second i cant see how it matters

 

[Picton]

And he basically said a 2011 will shoot faster than any striker fired in the market

This sounds like something someone says when they've got no idea what they're saying.

 

[jkelly1229]

This sounds like something someone says when they've got no idea what they're saying.

He said it with confidence though...so i was curious

 

[Darkslide]

But the motion is still the same right? Like slide goes back...cocks the hammer... comes forward bullet slides in.

Unless there is another piece that lets just use glocks have that takes an extra fraction of a second i cant see how it matters

Striker fired pistols have a striker spring, which creates spring resistance as the slide returns to battery, so to compensate it requires a stronger recoil spring. A heavy recoil spring causes the gun to dip down as the slide returns to battery, so the follow up shot takes longer because you have to adjust your aim.

With a 1911/2011, there is no striker spring, and the slide only has to overcome the hammer spring, which is far less resistance. You can use a lighter recoil spring so the gun returns to zero. A lighter recoil spring has faster cycling since there is less resistance to the recoil. You can tune the recoil springs on a striker fired pistol, but it won’t be the same. For example, a Glock slide has a nub near the end that pushes on the connector, and also a firing pin safety, so if the recoil spring is too light, the slide won’t go into battery. A 2011 doesn’t have these issues.

 

[jkelly1229]

Striker fired pistols have a striker spring, which creates spring resistance as the slide returns to battery, so to compensate it requires a stronger recoil spring. A heavy recoil spring causes the gun to dip down as the slide returns to battery, so the follow up shot takes longer because you have to adjust your aim.

With a 1911/2011, there is no striker spring, and the slide only has to overcome the hammer spring, which is far less resistance. You can use a lighter recoil spring so the gun returns to zero. A lighter recoil spring has faster cycling since there is less resistance to the recoil. You can tune the recoil springs on a striker fired pistol, but it won’t be the same. For example, a Glock slide has a nub near the end that pushes on the connector, and also a firing pin safety, so if the recoil spring is too light, the slide won’t go into battery. A 2011 doesn’t have these issues.

Alright then the dude was not full of shit

Thank you for making it educational

 

[meh]

Alright then the dude was not full of shit

I think his channel is a pretty good one, all things considered. I might have watched a video where he said what was quoted. I would have rolled my eyes not because I disagreed with it. I have no basis for disagreeing. Rather, I would have rolled my eyes because competitors care about things that I couldn't possibly care about.

 

[jkelly1229]

I think his channel is a pretty good one, all things considered. I might have watched a video where he said what was quoted. I would have rolled my eyes not because I disagreed with it. I have no basis for disagreeing. Rather, I would have rolled my eyes because competitors care about things that I couldn't possibly care about.

Just one of those things that kinda stuck and made me curious.

His channel isnt half bad

 

[Dennis in MA]

It's in the same realm of someone NEEDING a sub-MOA rifle. Sure there are guys that can do it. Snipers. High power competitors. 96% of NES members. etc., But the MARKET for a sub-MOA rifle is far larger than the people who can consistently SHOOT sub-MOA out of said rifle.

 

[straightshooterjake]

According to google, the cyclic rate of a Glock 18 machine pistol is 1200 rounds per minute. That is 20 rounds per second. The reported fire rate of a hammer fired Beretta 93r is 1100 rounds per minute, which is slightly slower, but I don't think the difference is significant.

From what I have read, 18 to 20 rounds per second is a typical speed for a locked breech pistol running in full auto. I am not aware of commercially produced full auto 1911's, but I would expect them to run about the same speed.

The important part here is that the fastest people pull the trigger about 8 rounds per second. So I am pretty sure that all of these guns cycle faster than any human can run them. And none of the semi-auto versions are faster than the others in a practical way.

Shooters may have better control at high speed with a gun that is heavier, has better ergonomics, or a better muzzle break. But those things don't actually make the action faster.

 

[MAGA99]

But the motion is still the same right? Like slide goes back...cocks the hammer... comes forward bullet slides in.

Unless there is another piece that lets just use glocks have that takes an extra fraction of a second i cant see how it matters

Glocks, and afaik most striker fired pistols, are like 90% cocked when the slide comes back into battery. When you pull the trigger, the sear moves the striker back a little bit before releasing it. Take the slide off and cycle your trigger and observe the sear. It’s minor, it’s a technicality, but striker fired is not true single action, and not quite double action either….it’s striker!!

This may be what he’s getting at?? But it is not something that in really matters in reality….I vote gun store BS, with a kernel of truth to it.

 

[frenchman]

It's in the same realm of someone NEEDING a sub-MOA rifle. Sure there are guys that can do it. Snipers. High power competitors. 96% of NES members. etc., But the MARKET for a sub-MOA rifle is far larger than the people who can consistently SHOOT sub-MOA out of said rifle.

Excuse me Sir, I can shoot half inch groups at 600 meters with my Mosin Nagant. Uphill. Prone in the snow. With an eye infection and a broken trigger finger. With iron sights. After a night of drinking. In 40mph wind gusts. At night.

 

[MAGA99]

Excuse me Sir, I can shoot half inch groups at 600 meters with my Mosin Nagant. Uphill. Prone in the snow. With an eye infection and a broken trigger finger. With iron sights. After a night of drinking. In 40mph wind gusts. At night.

You forgot the part about up-hill both ways!

 

[Supermoto]

Striker fired pistols have a striker spring, which creates spring resistance as the slide returns to battery, so to compensate it requires a stronger recoil spring. A heavy recoil spring causes the gun to dip down as the slide returns to battery, so the follow up shot takes longer because you have to adjust your aim.

With a 1911/2011, there is no striker spring, and the slide only has to overcome the hammer spring, which is far less resistance. You can use a lighter recoil spring so the gun returns to zero. A lighter recoil spring has faster cycling since there is less resistance to the recoil. You can tune the recoil springs on a striker fired pistol, but it won’t be the same. For example, a Glock slide has a nub near the end that pushes on the connector, and also a firing pin safety, so if the recoil spring is too light, the slide won’t go into battery. A 2011 doesn’t have these issues.

Cycle time is both directions. So a lighter spring can be slower since it has less return speed to overcome picking up the next round. A heavier spring returns faster and that is why the gun can dip.

Plus firing pin stop shape, hammer spring, recoil spring and slide weight is a balance.

No one is outrunning a handgun.

I do shoot my 2011 faster than my striker guns, but only by .02s and that is due to being able to stay more relaxed with the 2011

Lock time is faster with strikers

 

[67ray]

I ran a drill in Steve's class - where under his guidance, I actually overran my gun. I was pulling the trigger faster than it could cycle. Until that moment, I didn't believe that was possible. Haven't done it since, but it was eye-opening.

You probably didn't let up the trigger enough to reset

 

[Darkslide]

Cycle time is both directions. So a lighter spring can be slower since it has less return speed to overcome picking up the next round. A heavier spring returns faster and that is why the gun can dip.

Plus firing pin stop shape, hammer spring, recoil spring and slide weight is a balance.

No one is outrunning a handgun.

I do shoot my 2011 faster than my striker guns, but only by .02s and that is due to being able to stay more relaxed with the 2011

Lock time is faster with strikers

The slow return speed makes the muzzle dips less, so it makes for faster aiming. Better to have balanced recoil and return than slow recoil and fast return. .02s is small but still faster.

 

[Drix]

Excuse me Sir, I can shoot half inch groups at 600 meters with my Mosin Nagant. Uphill. Prone in the snow. With an eye infection and a broken trigger finger. With iron sights. After a night of drinking. In 40mph wind gusts. At night.

Comrade Frenchie, you're needed in Ukraine, suit up for the mother land.

 

[souper]

Lots of stupid in this thread. Not saying I bring up the average but even I know that a 2011 is more accurate/faster than your typical striker fired pistol. There’s a reason they dominate open competitions where speed and accuracy is critical. They’re called race guns for a reason.

 

[LakeTrout]

Probably been beat to death by now but a single action trigger can be fired quicker if all else is the same. Why wouldn’t it be? It’s a way shorter pull than anything else. I guess it’s most accurate to say that a single action auto loader can be fired repeatedly fastest, all else being equal.

That said, I can’t shoot anything fast so I hope whatever i have to shoot is slow.

 

[Supermoto]

Lots of stupid in this thread. Not saying I bring up the average but even I know that a 2011 is more accurate/faster than your typical striker fired pistol. There’s a reason they dominate open competitions where speed and accuracy is critical. They’re called race guns for a reason.

Speed and accuracy are critical in all division. And it comes down to the shooter not the gun.

 

[jkelly1229]

Probably been beat to death by now but a single action trigger can be fired quicker if all else is the same. Why wouldn’t it be? It’s a way shorter pull than anything else. I guess it’s most accurate to say that a single action auto loader can be fired repeatedly fastest, all else being equal.

That said, I can’t shoot anything fast so I hope whatever i have to shoot is slow.

I'm honestly just curious if there was a mechanical reason for the difference

I'm not close to hitting it either lol