changing gun trends

[42!]

One huge advantage is the P23x have infinitely better DA triggers than the walther.

I don't know about better, a little lighter in DA, but the Walther trigger is wider and serrated, and the break in both DA and SA goes to the Walther. Of course this is the German Walthers, I've only handle one US Walther and the fit and finish was so much worse that I would never buy one. I imagine the trigger on the US Walthers are equally bad.

 

[drgrant]

I don't know about better, a little lighter in DA, but the Walther trigger is wider and serrated, and the break in both DA and SA goes to the Walther. Of course this is the German Walthers, I've only handle one US Walther and the fit and finish was so much worse that I would never buy one. I imagine the trigger on the US Walthers are equally bad.

I have a friend with a ppk/s one of the US S&W ones.... he literally called me once and wanted me to look at it because he thought the gun was broken because the DA was so heavy. It's at least 15 lbs before it even starts moving. Maybe more.

 

[42!]

I have a friend with a ppk/s one of the US S&W ones.... he literally called me once and wanted me to look at it because he thought the gun was broken because the DA was so heavy. It's at least 15 lbs before it even starts moving. Maybe more.

Ya, letting S&W build Walthers was their biggest mistake.

 

[Broc]

Yeah but that's hi point, the special ed bus of firearms. There's nothing there but cost optimization nothing else is happening.....

And it will never blow up, no matter how you obstruct the barrel.

Hate saying it, but those ugly things are tough.

 

[Broc]

@Coyote33 also Aesthetics are pretty much like 4th or fifth fiddle.... nobody has ever said to me "I otherwise like this gun but it looks ugly so I'm not buying it". It's literally just not important in the bulk of sales anymore. Ergonomics and form factor are king.

I refuse to buy ugly guns, unless it is a self defense gun, then I don't care what it looks like.

The one Hi-point I own doesn't count, that was purchased to eventually be destroyed.

 

[Sterg]

The R9 works great as long as you stick to their doctorine of changing the recoil spring every 200 rds or so and not using really hot ammo.... (the gun is so small you wouldn't want +p here anyways) you also had to have about $1,200 to spend but I don't even know if they make them anymore.

Remington made a clone of the Rorbaugh. I think they call it the R9. The original is sought after so the price is high. The Remington is right up there with them.

I don't know about better, a little lighter in DA, but the Walther trigger is wider and serrated, and the break in both DA and SA goes to the Walther. Of course this is the German Walthers, I've only handle one US Walther and the fit and finish was so much worse that I would never buy one. I imagine the trigger on the US Walthers are equally bad.

I have the new Ft. Smith PPK. The quality is unbelievable and I don’t find the double action trigger is bad. Single action is crisp. B&K sales in Natick usually have them in stock. Walther claims a trigger pull of 13.4 pounds. 2.6 pounds in single action.

 

[drgrant]

And it will never blow up, no matter how you obstruct the barrel.

Hate saying it, but those ugly things are tough.

Just don't throw it against a rock or the slide will shatter like a porcelain vase.... (flannel daddy killed his that way... lol)

 

[DarthRevan]

Boy oh boy, are we ever deep in the weeds of three or four guns most of us don't really care anything about! Amazing how the internet works!

You know I’ve read a lot of shit on this forum, and have had severe disagreements with people. But he is the only one I’ve ignored.

 

[drgrant]

People love smaller guns esp in restrictive states like MA and CT cause the second amendment only goes up to ten rounds here. Why carry a Glock 19 designed for 15 when you have to use cuck mags when you can get a Glock 43X designed for a flush democrat compliant ten? Or Sig or HK P30SK fat boi, etc.

Not true at all. Even in states like NH smaller handguns outsell larger handguns at retail like 4 to 1. This is because people want guns they can rationalize easily carrying even if they choose not to do so most of the time. “how many bullets does it hold” rarely even enters the conversation.

Legalese magazine mental masturbation, in reality rarely plays a role in a handgun purchasing decision. Most people thankfully do not allow MA bullshit to infect their brains to that degree. modeling a decision like that based around effluvial legal garbage is a horrible mindset.

 

[Coyote33]

Some of it is cost, some is mechanics/physics( Aesthetics actually interfere with the function of the gun you can't have faggedy swooping trigger guards and mount flashlights at the same time, on some guns) the rest of it is is that it quite literally doesn't matter.... basically nobody except for you actually cares. that's being polite.... these guns are tools for most people not show pieces. You're asking for silver hammers in a market where nobody cares about buying a silver hammer.

Most people don't mount flashlights, and I doubt I ever would, so there's that. Not sure where you got the "swooping" from, but I was talking about just making them normal shaped again, instead of squared off. The square part just makes it unnecessarily bigger. Ugly is just a side product.

Yeah but that's hi point, the special ed bus of firearms. There's nothing there but cost optimization nothing else is happening.....

Still, no reason to make it as ugly as it is. This one is above and beyond. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe that is the extrapolation of a computer program using cheap materials necessary to support a 9mm explosion in a barrel, and move back and forth.

 

[drgrant]

Most people don't mount flashlights, and I doubt I ever would, so there's that. Not sure where you got the "swooping" from, but I was talking about just making them normal shaped again, instead of squared off. The square part just makes it unnecessarily bigger. Ugly is just a side product.

You need a squared trigger guard to have a flashlight mount that isn’t shit on any above pocket/sub handgun, outside of 1911s. (which you can get away with a curve because the trigger is straight pull) Doesn’t matter on little guns but it basically ruins the viability of something like a P239. You and I might not use geegaw shit like flashlights and RDS but a statistically significant % of the market DOES now on anything bigger than a pocket gun. Go on a faceplant gun/flash light group and you’ll find thousands of people with TV sets and flashlights on their guns. These people are no longer statistical outliers but represent a growing percentage of new handgun buyers. Now having said that, whether they actually use the capability or they’re just posers…. that’s a whole other story… but that is irrelevant at the retail counter…

Still, no reason to make it as ugly as it is. This one is above and beyond. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe that is the extrapolation of a computer program using cheap materials necessary to support a 9mm explosion in a barrel, and move back and forth.

Trying to make guns pretty makes the physics problems harder to solve especially when the gun is small. There are also guns like the seecamp for example that are very pretty looking guns but are a f***ing physics nightmare because they went to far. You literally have to death grip one of those pistols to make them not jam… because the slide/spring isn’t heavy enough because they wanted to make it extra tiny and “cute. “ I mean I get it but it’s f***ing stupid from an engineering standpoint the priority should be to make a product that works. i’ll take an ugly looking gun that gets me an extra 2% operational physics window over a pretty one that’s more likely to jam any day of the week. I don’t get it. If I wanted something that looked nice id buy some old gun. In a modern handgun that’s basically a silly requirement.

Also it’s bizarre to me that you don’t understand this you are a P95 guy. Literally one of the dog shit ugliest guns ever manufactured but it puts functionality over appearance in a serious way. It basically is the miss piggy rosanne barr carole baskin, cellulite ridden love child school bus of doublestack autos but it offsets its generally shitty appearance with an insanely good level of reliability.

Also at some level Aesthetics is really subjective to a point of retardation :… so manufacturers basically put that aside because they know they’re never gonna be able to meet everybody wants in that department…:: especially considering that when it comes to a purchasing decision it’s usually meaningless so trying to make swoopy trigger guards and other fruity shit would be perceived by most consumers as “trying too hard”. Not to mention companies like Glock and HK have basically been selling brick like handguns for over 30 years…. And the only people who seem to have a problem with the appearance of those guns are boomers or “metal only guns pls” buyers that were never going to buy the guns anyways regardless of what they actually looked like. Trying to make a gun look a certain way to appeal to a demographic that was never gonna buy your gun to begin with is pretty stupid as a manufacturing goal….

If I wanted a pretty gun id buy any number of guns that look nice. Like an MR73 revolver with some wood grips installed. Or even a PPK. For something that I actually carry daily that nobody will ever see? Do not care. That’s why i have a bunch of glocks. They are inelegant but max out their role perfectly. if I want something pretty to look at I can take out one of my 1911s or I can pet the Browning hi power that I’m babysitting for somebody…, . I literally don’t need that kind of appearance in a production carry handgun.

 

[Coyote33]

Also it’s bizarre to me that you don’t understand this you are a P95 guy. Literally one of the dog shit ugliest guns ever manufactured but it puts functionality over appearance in a serious way. It basically is the miss piggy rosanne barr carole baskin, cellulite ridden love child school bus of doublestack autos but it offsets its generally shitty appearance with an insanely good level of reliability.

And guess what? No rail on the P95. And look at the trigger guard:


But that was never intended as a "pocket carry" gun.

 

[Dennis in MA]

Pages upon pages later, I, too, am shocked at the 9mm surge. 10-15 years ago, if you didn't carry a 45, you were a p-word. Now if you carry one, you're compensating for a small peen0r. LOL

It'll flop back. In another decade, everyone will be 45'n it. I'll probably stick to 9mm. And the couple of 45's I already have. And I'll probably still have some 40 left over so I'll shoot those as well. .


My thought is: When do you sell your "excess" mASS Pre-bans??? What's the timing on that. At some point, that 1982 Colt SP-1 is going to be worth $1,000 instead of $3,000. I think Poly and Norinco AK's will still command a premium only for quality. But not the current premium. Because the day when AWB's go away is swiftly coming. Not 2022. Maybe 2023. Probably 2024.

 

[Broc]

My thought is: When do you sell your "excess" mASS Pre-bans??? What's the timing on that. At some point, that 1982 Colt SP-1 is going to be worth $1,000 instead of $3,000. I think Poly and Norinco AK's will still command a premium only for quality. But not the current premium. Because the day when AWB's go away is swiftly coming. Not 2022. Maybe 2023. Probably 2024.

For MA?

Not going to happen.

 

[M1911]

Pages upon pages later, I, too, am shocked at the 9mm surge. 10-15 years ago, if you didn't carry a 45, you were a p-word. Now if you carry one, you're compensating for a small peen0r. LOL

It'll flop back. In another decade, everyone will be 45'n it. I'll probably stick to 9mm. And the couple of 45's I already have. And I'll probably still have some 40 left over so I'll shoot those as well. .

No, it won't.

Bullet design has improved dramatically since the 1986 Miami FBI Shootout. Back in the day, there was a significant difference in terminal effect between 9mm and 45 ACP. The later development of .40 S&W was caused by the perceived deficiencies of 9mm.

But in the past 20 years, 9mm JHP has improved to the point where there is no discernible difference in terminal effects between 9mm, .40, and .45. 9mm has significant advantages in capacity, size of the grip, reduced recoil, and size (resulting in a more easily concealed gun). Police departments didn't move back to 9mm from .40 for style.

More people are carrying concealed these days. They are carrying guns like the Glock 43x, Glock 48, Sig P365xl, etc. Larger calibers like .40 and .45 won't work in that form factor.

 

[NHKevin]

No, it won't.

Bullet design has improved dramatically since the 1986 Miami FBI Shootout. Back in the day, there was a significant difference in terminal effect between 9mm and 45 ACP. The later development of .40 S&W was caused by the perceived deficiencies of 9mm.

But in the past 20 years, 9mm JHP has improved to the point where there is no discernible difference in terminal effects between 9mm, .40, and .45. 9mm has significant advantages in capacity, size of the grip, reduced recoil, and size (resulting in a more easily concealed gun). Police departments didn't move back to 9mm from .40 for style.

More people are carrying concealed these days. They are carrying guns like the Glock 43x, Glock 48, Sig P365xl, etc. Larger calibers like .40 and .45 won't work in that form factor.

Glock 36 is easy to carry, though I prefer the Glock 30.

 

[M1911]

Glock 36 is easy to carry, though I prefer the Glock 30.

Glock 36 only has a six round magazine. A Sig P365xl has 12 and 15 round magazines in a similar size. The Glock 36 has never sold well and that won’t change.

 

[Dench]

I think I've seen as many Glock 17L's as I have G36's. They are for sure not common.

 

[bmac10]

In my opinion, there hasn't been enough innovation.
Granted there are only so many ways of designing a pistol to fit the hand, fit the ammo, fit the intended use, fit the shooter's aiming requirements.

If you think about it, John Moses Browning was way ahead of his time and set many of today's handgun's benchmarks...

But where's the innovation? Who is the next JMB?

I think the platform of using expanding gases to propel a dense object has reached its' likely pinnacle. Maybe energy weapons next?

 

[drgrant]

Pages upon pages later, I, too, am shocked at the 9mm surge. 10-15 years ago, if you didn't carry a 45, you were a p-word. Now if you carry one, you're compensating for a small peen0r. LOL

It'll flop back. In another decade, everyone will be 45'n it. I'll probably stick to 9mm. And the couple of 45's I already have. And I'll probably still have some 40 left over so I'll shoot those as well. .

45 is still a thing, it's immensely much more popular than dogshit .40 is. It has staying power otherwise Smith wouldn't have bothered making things like the shield 45 or their mid size gun. I'm honestly surprised that Glock hasn't made a flat 10rd 45 that's basically a flatter G30.

The other thing that happened is that basically a lot of LE agencies dumped 40... a lot of them went to 45, some of them went to 9 mm. I doubt it will ever swing to a 45 majority for Joe average but I think 45 will still be relevant 10yrs from now, on the other hand I doubt anybody will be manufacturing 40s anymore except for maybe Glock and some racehun builders. ( Glock commits 110% to the platforms they sell even if its a shit idea like 45 GAP. )

My thought is: When do you sell your "excess" mASS Pre-bans??? What's the timing on that. At some point, that 1982 Colt SP-1 is going to be worth $1,000 instead of $3,000. I think Poly and Norinco AK's will still command a premium only for quality. But not the current premium. Because the day when AWB's go away is swiftly coming. Not 2022. Maybe 2023. Probably 2024.

Not sure if serious those Colt rifles are collectible and demanded premium in any state regardless of AWB b*******. Think of it like an old Thompson or something even if machine guns were completely to regulated old school Thompsons that weren't f***** up from the 20s or 30s would still be worth many thousands of dollars.

 

[enbloc]

I think the platform of using expanding gases to propel a dense object has reached its' likely pinnacle. Maybe energy weapons next?

I've been thinking of a projectile and a pressurized injected gas ignited electronically.
Turn the gun into an internal-combustion engine of sorts, and the projo is the piston.
No case or primer. Lots of hurdles though...

 

[DarkJoker33]

I appendix carry both of my .45's just fine.
And my .40 and full size 9mm

I dont understand ehat all the hub bub and riff raff about it is

 

[NHKevin]

I've been thinking of a projectile and a pressurized injected gas ignited electronically.
Turn the gun into an internal-combustion engine of sorts, and the projo is the piston.
No case or primer. Lots of hurdles though...

Interesting idea. The FA version would need liquid cooling.

 

[enbloc]

Interesting idea. The FA version would need liquid cooling.

Or a chilled highly explosive gas was used as the propellant. It would cool the chamber with every round.
When a gas is sent through a small orifice at high pressure I believe that also induces a chilling effect.

Metering of the gas could be variable, creating kinetic potential to suit the shooter's needs.
Want 900fps? Make a digital adjustment. Want 2300fps? adjust.

 

[P51MA]

No, it won't.

Bullet design has improved dramatically since the 1986 Miami FBI Shootout. Back in the day, there was a significant difference in terminal effect between 9mm and 45 ACP. The later development of .40 S&W was caused by the perceived deficiencies of 9mm.

But in the past 20 years, 9mm JHP has improved to the point where there is no discernible difference in terminal effects between 9mm, .40, and .45. 9mm has significant advantages in capacity, size of the grip, reduced recoil, and size (resulting in a more easily concealed gun). Police departments didn't move back to 9mm from .40 for style.

More people are carrying concealed these days. They are carrying guns like the Glock 43x, Glock 48, Sig P365xl, etc. Larger calibers like .40 and .45 won't work in that form factor.

If it can get off the ground, I think .30SC could become really popular within 10 years. Perfect fit for p365 size format. Someone will make a 15+1 flush fit for a 365XL sized carry gun. Then we will all argue about .30 vs 9 the same way people used to argue about 9 vs 40.

On the other hand, the civilian market tends to follow whatever the FBI and police are doing, and I suspect they won't be getting rid of their 9's. LE contracts mean mass produced ammo. /shrug

 

[Quite_Exasperated]

Glock 36 only has a six round magazine. A Sig P365xl has 12 and 15 round magazines in a similar size. The Glock 36 has never sold well and that won’t change.

G36 is great for keyster carry so there’s that. See? you couldn’t even tell I was carrying..

 

[M1911]

If it can get off the ground, I think .30SC could become really popular within 10 years. Perfect fit for p365 size format. Someone will make a 15+1 flush fit for a 365XL sized carry gun. Then we will all argue about .30 vs 9 the same way people used to argue about 9 vs 40.

On the other hand, the civilian market tends to follow whatever the FBI and police are doing, and I suspect they won't be getting rid of their 9's. LE contracts mean mass produced ammo. /shrug

I think .30 SC will be just as popular as .327Mag

 

[Broc]

I think .30 SC will be just as popular as .327Mag

I really hope it is another SW failure.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

On the other hand, the civilian market tends to follow whatever the FBI and police are doing, and I suspect they won't be getting rid of their 9's. LE contracts mean mass produced ammo. /shrug

That is until our king decides to limit scary Assault ammunition to military use only. All ammo used by the military will be made illegal. This means 9mm. Since the army just accepted 6.8 to replace aging 223 and 308, the civilians will be stuck using 223, 308 and 45-cal ammo. I'm outraged! I'll have to buy a 1911 and an AR-15!

 

[Dench]

I dont even know what the f*** 32 SC