changing gun trends

[EJFudd]

They already had, good, proven designs. Why not bring those same guns out in plastic, to make them lighter?

Just an observational guess on my part, but I don't think going from metal to plastic (or vice versa) in a specific handgun design is as simple as one might think.

In that regard, it will be interesting to compare the technical aspects of the S&W M&P 2.0 9mm to the new version in metal.

 

[fencer]

I totally disagree with those that claim a lack of innovation in the firearms industry as of late.
I think there have been more innovations in the last 20 years than in the previous 200, and I think Sig is leading the way in the current market.
. Interchangeable FCU's. They started it with the 250. You can essentially have 20 different guns in multiple calibers, with one serialized part. That's huge. Sure, they need to keep working on it, but it is revolutionary.
. The 365 was a game changer. It was innovative because they designed the magazine first, then designed the gun around it. They looked at the "problem", then worked out how to solve it. Glock took the easy way out. People wanted easy to conceal carry guns, so Glock just shrunk down the platform and violia.. you have a 43.
Even in the revolver market, Ruger came out with the LCR. Polymer framed revolvers were unheard of. But they are light weigh and go bang every time. Consumers bought a bunch of them because they solved a lot of problems.

Then, you need to look at optics. 15 years ago, there were very few red dots on the streets and almost none on carry guns. They were bulky, finicky, and expensive, not to mention fragile. Now the market is full of high quality, affordable optics that are rugged AF, from a ton of manufacturers. You never saw them at the range and now you see them in holsters of the average Joe.

Ammo has come a loooong way. In the 80's and early 90's, 9mm ammo was questionable at best.

And finally, the stupid f***ing media. Morons. There have always been shootings. But before the 24 hour news cycle, they were rarely headlines. Now, the liberal twats rush to bring us coverage of "Mass shooting" and "school shootings" to push their gun control liberal agenda. They honestly thought that if they bombard the public with stories and images of gun violence people would push to ban guns. But what they accomplished was when the general public sees criminals committing these crimes they don't think " we need to ban guns" they think " f***.... I need a gun"

 

[drgrant]

As far as trends, I don't know why they have to make all the plastic guns so UGLY. Not everybody wants squared off fronts and rails. How about a gracefully curved, tapered oval trigger guard? Think PPK, but with all the goodness of what plastic brings to the table.

Same with small guns. Why the tilting barrel down to 9mm, then the fixed barrel at .380 and lower (I know, not always)?

How about Beretta come out with their Bobcat and Tomcat in plastic? (Or are they already?)

How about a plastic PPK? You'll get the reduced cost, light weight, etc.

Just trying to think of all the modern materials and processes, with the great designs and thinking from the past.

Again, why such UGLY PLASTIC GUNS, especially if it costs no more to make them nicer looking? Round those edges, drop the rails, smooth it out. Make it easy to draw, and lighter to carry.

Because nobody actually cares about that stuff and you end up with fruity, questionable designs... ask taurus about the curve....

It does cost more- making guns only 3 people will buy ends up being costly.

Curved trigger guard? Yeah, nightmare fuel for holster design and compatibility. It also makes the guns look huge.

This is a great example of why people don't do this. The p232 looks really nice but its f***ing gigantic for its size. This was a cool gun, but completely impractical.



A lot of those designs from the past are not that great, either. A tomcat? Ewww. *vomit*

A plastic ppk? So it can have even /more/ recoil?

At least the original PPK is not size inefficient ill give it that.

These little guys from Kahr are nice looking but good luck finding a new one.... (mk9 elite)



BTW Krapber already makes the fruity guns you want, but they don't sell that well..... it doesn't help that they're 8-900 bucks and more finicky than a plastic glock.or ruger the same size under 500 bucks......

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

Because nobody actually cares about that stuff and you end up with fruity, questionable designs... ask taurus about the curve....

It does cost more- making guns only 3 people will buy ends up being costly.

Curved trigger guard? Yeah, nightmare fuel for holster design and compatibility. It also makes the guns look huge.

This is a great example of why people don't do this. The p232 looks really nice but its f***ing gigantic for its size. This was a cool gun, but completely impractical.

View attachment 658282

A lot of those designs from the past are not that great, either. A tomcat? Ewww. *vomit*

A plastic ppk? So it can have even /more/ recoil?

At least the original PPK is not size inefficient ill give it that.

These little guys from Kahr are nice looking but good luck finding a new one.... (mk9 elite)

View attachment 658284

BTW Krapber already makes the fruity guns you want, but they don't sell that well..... it doesn't help that they're 8-900 bucks and more finicky than a plastic glock.or ruger the same size under 500 bucks......

View attachment 658285

Well, your taste in guns is, well... it's SO you!

 

[42!]

Because nobody actually cares about that stuff and you end up with fruity, questionable designs... ask taurus about the curve....

It does cost more- making guns only 3 people will buy ends up being costly.

Curved trigger guard? Yeah, nightmare fuel for holster design and compatibility. It also makes the guns look huge.

This is a great example of why people don't do this. The p232 looks really nice but its f***ing gigantic for its size. This was a cool gun, but completely impractical.

View attachment 658282

Wait, why is this impractical? I pocket carry one, no problems.

 

[drgrant]

Wait, why is this impractical? I pocket carry one, no problems.

A p232? The oal of the gun is f***ing gigantic (for an 8 shot 380)

 

[Coyote33]

In that regard, it will be interesting to compare the technical aspects of the S&W M&P 2.0 9mm to the new version in metal.

Are they going to be FORGED METAL?

 

[Coyote33]

Glock just shrunk down the platform and violia [sic].. you have a 43.

... which is STILL a block and too big.

 

[DarkJoker33]

This makes my point.

They already had, good, proven designs. Why not bring those same guns out in plastic, to make them lighter?

Compare apples to apples.

View attachment 658263 View attachment 658264


Not a bad looking gun, I guess.



Seems like a good comparison.

Tomcat and bobcat, 32 acp and 22lr, are break open designs for the first round and then mag fed there after.
Being all metal(except grip panels).

Pico and nano were 1st gen polymer mag fed browning style.

Apx is the successor to the pico and nano

 

[42!]

A p232? The oal of the gun is f***ing gigantic (for an 8 shot 380)

fits in pocket with pocket holster, no one notices, lets me carry in situation where it might otherwise raise questions. Sure it's a poor replacement for my Walther PP. But it's less expensive, reliable, and puts lead on target every time. Doesn't seem impractical at all. And it's thinner than the P365 so it sits flatter in the pocket.

 

[EJFudd]

Are they going to be FORGED METAL?

No clue... and this being Massachusetts, it will probably be a while before I even get to hold one.

 

[Coyote33]

Here, a few minor edits.

 

[drgrant]

fits in pocket with pocket holster, no one notices, lets me carry in situation where it might otherwise raise questions. Sure it's a poor replacement for my Walther PP. But it's less expensive, reliable, and puts lead on target every time. Doesn't seem impractical at all. And it's thinner than the P365 so it sits flatter in the pocket.

I owned a p232. There's no way I would ever carry that in a pocket it's too large and way too heavy for a pocket gun. But if it works for you then im happy.

 

[drgrant]

Here, a few minor edits.

And this is why you don't design guns for a living LOL so you just cut off the front of the barrel and made the trigger guard faggoty for no reason, making any holster it rides in bulkier than it needs to be. Guns in this class are constrained in appearance to meet real world requirements.

 

[Coyote33]

Apx is the successor to the pico and nano

No it's not. Those are small pistols. The APX is big.

From Beretta's website:

Beretta APX​

The addition of the new APX semiautomatic pistol completes the full size pistol portfolio

 

[Coyote33]

And this is why you don't design guns for a living LOL so you just cut off the front of the barrel and made the trigger guard faggoty for no reason, making any holster it rides in bulkier than it needs to be. Guns in this class are constrained in appearance to meet real world requirements.

Who makes YOU the king of taste?

I give you:

Well, your taste in guns is, well... it's SO you!

Wait, why is this impractical? I pocket carry one, no problems.

YOUR faggotry square trigger guard is just plain ugly, useless, and too big. Trying to keep some nicer lines. Even using MS Paint, it looks better immediately. Just trying to shorten the overall size and smooth the contours. How exactly does REMOVING material make the need for a bigger holster? Constrained for WHAT requirements? Bad form? You can have both you know.

 

[DarkJoker33]

No it's not. Those are small pistols. The APX is big.

From Beretta's website:

Yes it is.
It uses some of the same componants as the nano and pico.
The regular apx centurion and full size are bigger than the nano,pico,tomcat and bobcat.

But when you get down to the apx carry its alot closer.

Beretta APX Carry vs Beretta Nano vs Beretta Pico size comparison | Handgun Hero

 

[drgrant]

Who makes YOU the king of taste? YOUR faggoty square trigger guard is just ugly. Trying to keep some nicer lines. Even using MS Paint, it looks better immediately. Just trying to shorten the overall size and smooth the contours. How exactly does REMOVING material make the need for a bigger holster? Constrained for WHAT requirements? Bad form? You can have both you know.

It's not about taste it's actually about making a gun that a human with a brain would want to carry. Trying to make things look better ends up having a cost on the back end that's why most of these small guns are ugly they need to be that way to meet size constraints.

 

[DarkJoker33]

It's not about taste it's actually about making a gun that a human with a brain would want to carry. Trying to make things look better ends up having a cost on the back end that's why most of these small guns are ugly they need to be that way to meet size constraints.

Ill agree on the nano,pico and bobcat.

I personally like my apx, and i want a tomcat for a boot gun.

 

[drgrant]

@Coyote33 also Aesthetics are pretty much like 4th or fifth fiddle.... nobody has ever said to me "I otherwise like this gun but it looks ugly so I'm not buying it". It's literally just not important in the bulk of sales anymore. Ergonomics and form factor are king.

 

[M1911]

A p232? The oal of the gun is f***ing gigantic (for an 8 shot 380)

Yeah, it is way bigger than my Kahr PM9. I don’t see any point to a P230/232.

I’ve got a Kahr MK9. It sits in my safe. My PM9 is easier to carry.

 

[Coyote33]

It's not about taste it's actually about making a gun that a human with a brain would want to carry. Trying to make things look better ends up having a cost on the back end that's why most of these small guns are ugly they need to be that way to meet size constraints.

How does having a bigger (square) trigger guard "meet size constraints"? Are the constraints to "make it not smaller than X"?

@Coyote33 also Aesthetics are pretty much like 4th or fifth fiddle.... nobody has ever said to me "I otherwise like this gun but it looks ugly so I'm not buying it". It's literally just not important in the bulk of sales anymore. Ergonomics and form factor are king.

Again, a smaller, streamlined trigger guard just lends to easier carry. Plus, the two are not in conflict. No reason you cannot have compact, useful, AND better looking. You obviously missed out on those days in school. (Form AND Function)

 

[rep308]

Oh here is one, teaching the under 30 year old crowd and when I ask, "Have you shot before?" I get a lot of "yes, I play a lot of Call of Duty" or some other shooting game. They usually are pretty good at ID'ing gun models though.....

 

[drgrant]

How does having a bigger (square) trigger guard "meet size constraints"? Are the constraints to "make it not smaller than X"?

So you're trigger guard isn't larger internally than the kahr one that's news to me. Measure the wasted space, it's impossible to make a holster to accommodate your trigger guard without using a little extra material.

Again, a smaller, streamlined trigger guard just lends to easier carry. Plus, the two are not in conflict. No reason you cannot have compact, useful, AND better looking. You obviously missed out on those days in school. (Form AND Function)

Lol you likely will never get it.

In your example you actually broke the gun... kahr literally made that thing as small as you can actually make it before it stops working. Hell half of Justin? Moon's patent on these guns is based on size reduction . Then you increase the size of the trigger guard. This requires more holster material because the trigger guard is unnecessarily large. Ugh.

Your mod also creates an ergonomic problem where somebody's finger might actually get pinched between the bottom of the trigger in the guard. Kahrs design ameliorates this with a bump. You put the bump back now your trigger is just as ugly as the original.

The bottom line is nobody cares about aesthetics on guns like this LOL otherwise it would actually be a factor in the market and it just really isn't. Kimber makes a whole bunch of products that are right up your alley, that cost twice as much and are half as reliable as their "ugly" peers.

Also if it bothers you that much just buy one of these.... great gun fundamentally but its the size of a g19 and 50% the capacity..... theres a reason sig doesn't make/push this anymore. But it has all the curves and giant fruity trigger guard etc. I carried the non-melted, non sas version of the gun for several years.

 

[M1911]

I also have a P239. It also hasn’t been out of the safe in a decade. Pointless gun in todays world.

 

[Picton]

Oh here is one, teaching the under 30 year old crowd and when I ask, "Have you shot before?" I get a lot of "yes, I play a lot of Call of Duty" or some other shooting game. They usually are pretty good at ID'ing gun models though.....

My 8-year-old can identify more gun models than I can. It’s surreal.

 

[Coyote33]

making any holster it rides in bulkier

How is smaller "bulkier"?

So you're trigger guard isn't larger internally than the kahr one that's news to me. Measure the wasted space, it's impossible to make a holster to accommodate your trigger guard without using a little extra material.
...
patent on these guns is based on size reduction . Then you increase the size of the trigger guard.

It was a decrease. Look again.

This requires more holster material because the trigger guard is unnecessarily large. Ugh.

Look again.

Your mod also creates an ergonomic problem where somebody's finger might actually get pinched between the bottom of the trigger in the guard.

Never heard of that. Ever.

...
The bottom line is nobody cares about aesthetics on guns like this

It isn't "aesthetics". It is size reduction and concealability. Kahr has it pretty close, but a little too square.

Also if it bothers you that much just buy one of these.... great gun fundamentally but its the size of a g19 and 50% the capacity..... theres a reason sig doesn't make/push this anymore. But it has all the curves and giant fruity trigger guard etc. I carried the non-melted, non sas version of the gun for several years.

View attachment 658329

Not a bad looking gun (there's your "aesthetics"), but I agree that it is way too big for pocket carry. Again, this isn't necessarily the "pocket carry thread". There is the P3AT and the LCP II threads for that.

Now I've gone and forgotten. Is this gun a metal frame, or plastic? If not plastic, any similar actually in plastic?

 

[drgrant]

How is smaller "bulkier"?



It was a decrease. Look again.



Look again.



Never heard of that. Ever.



It isn't "aesthetics". It is size reduction and concealability. Kahr has it pretty close, but a little too square.



Not a bad looking gun (there's your "aesthetics"), but I agree that it is way too big for pocket carry. Again, this isn't necessarily the "pocket carry thread". There is the P3AT and the LCP II threads for that.

Now I've gone and forgotten. Is this gun a metal frame, or plastic? If not plastic, any similar actually in plastic?

Dude look at your picture you broke the gun LOL..

The mk9 is nearly all metal except for the grip panels. Same with the p239. I think in both cases you could at least at one time get wood grips as well to make it not plastic LOL

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

Dude look at your picture you broke the gun LOL..

I don't know. It kinda looks nice. Very Beretta-ish.

 

[drgrant]

I don't know. It kinda looks nice. Very Beretta-ish.

Yes it looks great for a gun that won't actually fire. (Well, maybe as a single shot)