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that is true.Vickers......who knew how the law was written and how it worked....is a complete idiot for thinking he wouldn't get caught.
i will never agree with a hypothesis for the government to be able to declare an act of any harmless peaceful possession to be a 'crime'. it is not a crime to be an owner of any object.
and even worse it gets now for the government to be allowed to declare a mere 'intent' to be classified as a crime as well, with no true burden to provide any solid proof.
should hang on the same rope with those who enforces it. as a consistent hanging of things usually persists the end of such things enforcement.not a hypothesis its actually a printed law.
should hang on the same rope with those who enforces it. as a consistent hanging of things usually persists the end of such things enforcement.
a people who get incarcerated with no judgment for an 'intent to commit an intent' is absurd, but it is the current world we live in.on this is absurd
Exactly. The law is hot garbage. But it is the law at this time, so deliberately breaking because you want a machine gun that the law says you can’t have is the very definition of PSGWSP.Not sure if serious it's not a hypothesis its actually a printed law. The fact that it is hot garbage malum prohibitum BS and likely unconstitutional doesn't make it anything less of a law at least on the ground in current reality.
You must be new to the whole .gov experience.Whose the victim? Why waste this amount of resources on what's no more than a white collar crime?
Why be ok with unconstitutional law being applied to anyone?
I wouldn't call it deliberate so much as lazy/negligent, he probably thought it wouldn't matter, and most times, it probably doesn't.... but a bunch of dog and pony shows are cheap money compared to what he's probably paid an attorney. Probably would have fun doing it too.Exactly. The law is hot garbage. But it is the law at this time, so deliberately breaking because you want a machine gun that the law says you can’t have is the very definition of PSGWSP.
I think it is safe to say that the ATF had been looking the other way for some time. But the idea of knowingly commiting a felony with the hope that you won't get caught, and leaving an electronic trail, yeah, that's pretty stupid.I wouldn't call it deliberate so much as lazy/negligent, he probably thought it wouldn't matter, and most times, it probably doesn't.... but a bunch of dog and pony shows are cheap money compared to what he's probably paid an attorney. Probably would have fun doing it too.
I would agree with St. Augustine that "an unjust law is no law at all."Not sure if serious it's not a hypothesis its actually a printed law. The fact that it is hot garbage malum prohibitum BS and likely unconstitutional doesn't make it anything less of a law at least on the ground in current reality.
But he plead guilty, so there will be no appeals. Given that he is battling cancer, I understand why he took a plea bargain.I would agree with St. Augustine that "an unjust law is no law at all."
He screwed up. He got caught.
He bought his ticket and gets to ride the ride.
And now is the chance for SAF, FPC, etc. (maybe even the NRA?) to raise a case and repeal the laws. Larry is perfectly suited to be the 21st century Miller. What could more perfectly exemplify militia arms in 2024 than select-fire, intermediate cartridge carbines imported on demo letters for LE departments?
It’s annoying the f*** out of me that Vickers gave those f***tards at the ATF this win. His dumb, arrogant ass is likely going to cause others to drop. They love to take down high profile folks like Vickers and send a message to his fans. They don’t give a shit about him being a veteran. He’s hard right anti-democrats and they love using someone like him as a poster child for hard right gun nuts. The ATF pricks are going to be circlejerking about this win for a long time to come.I would agree with St. Augustine that "an unjust law is no law at all."
He screwed up. He got caught.
He bought his ticket and gets to ride the ride.
And now is the chance for SAF, FPC, etc. (maybe even the NRA?) to raise a case and repeal the laws. Larry is perfectly suited to be the 21st century Miller. What could more perfectly exemplify militia arms in 2024 than select-fire, intermediate cartridge carbines imported on demo letters for LE departments?
Yes, NFA, GCA and FOPA are all unconstitutional, but he and his sheriff buddy should be in jail. We would be and he doesn’t get special treatment. He knew it was illegal and did it anyway.
Yeah, pretty wild he didn’t like invite them over when he made YouTube videos of said machine guns. That would have counted. Can you imagine you do this guy a favor and he can’t even thank you with an invite?I think it is safe to say that the ATF had been looking the other way for some time. But the idea of knowingly commiting a felony with the hope that you won't get caught, and leaving an electronic trail, yeah, that's pretty stupid.
But worse, getting a couple dealer sample letters AND THEN NEVER ACTUALLY DOING THE DEMO? How hard would it have been for him to go give a demo to the chief's in question? Go take a trip and take your buddy to the range, shoot off a few magazines, then take the chief out to dinner and drinks. That at least would be a legal fig leaf.
Demo Ranch did exactly that when he got his MP7.Yeah, pretty wild he didn’t like invite them over when he made YouTube videos of said machine guns. That would have counted. Can you imagine you do this guy a favor and he can’t even thank you with an invite?
He sounds pretty arrogant.
I believe that he is dying of cancer. They had him dead to rights, so he would definitely lose in district court and likely be fighting this the rest of his life, quite likely from behind bars. So I completely understand why he took the plea.It’s annoying the f*** out of me that Vickers gave those f***tards at the ATF this win.
Doubt. Most of this stuff is opportunistic for them. There's nothing exciting here other than an 07 that failed "nfa 101" basically, and had the misfortune to get caught doing it. The rest of the 07s are just going to yawn and continue with their lives. Maybe even get more demo letters next week.It’s annoying the f*** out of me that Vickers gave those f***tards at the ATF this win. His dumb, arrogant ass is likely going to cause others to drop.
They're still circle jerking Ruby Ridge as a win so...It’s annoying the f*** out of me that Vickers gave those f***tards at the ATF this win. His dumb, arrogant ass is likely going to cause others to drop. They love to take down high profile folks like Vickers and send a message to his fans. They don’t give a shit about him being a veteran. He’s hard right anti-democrats and they love using someone like him as a poster child for hard right gun nuts. The ATF pricks are going to be circlejerking about this win for a long time to come.
Is that what he did - not demo the weapons he applied to demo for? I thought I heard someone say that he actually followed the law to the letter, and the conviction was for subverting the spirit of the law.dog and pony shows are cheap money
His intent was to acquire the guns for his collection, not to acquire them in order to demo them to the police.Is that what he did - not demo the weapons he applied to demo for? I thought I heard someone say that he actually followed the law to the letter, and the conviction was for subverting the spirit of the law.
i will never agree with a hypothesis for the government to be able to declare an act of any harmless peaceful possession to be a 'crime'. it is not a crime to be an owner of any object.
and even worse it gets now for the government to be allowed to declare a mere 'intent' to be classified as a crime as well, with no true burden to provide any solid proof.
Please don’t bloviate about that being immaterial friend. The ATF/Gov clearly breaks laws and is never held accountable.
From the news reports, it would appear that Vickers followed the letter of the law (The police reportedly did "request a demo") as there is no specific provision the the law that the demo occur, or that the SOT dealer have a proven history of actually marketing to police departments. In many cases, the letter of the law prevails in favor of the defendant, even in the presence of a credible argument that the spirit and intent of the law was subverted. This has historically not been the case with federal gun laws - and many reasonably attentive persons can figure this out. Another great example is the Maddi-Griffin case where the BATFE successfully convince the court to accept a new, expanded, federal definition of "firearm" when it came to that firms's 50cal parts kit (sold by a convicted felon could not own/handle or sell firearms).
The way the system is set up, his conviction would have been almost certain as the court would allows the BATFE to explain its version of the law, and perhaps even tell the jury the ATFs expert opinion should be given considerable weight. His only real chance would have been jury nullification, and competent voir dire by the prosecution would have close off that path.
Way to selectively quote half my comment. As I said, NFA, GCA and FOPA are the law, and I don't agree with them, believe that they're unconstitutional, but its still the law, and has been since 1986 and Vickers knowingly and willfully broke it. He shouldn't get special treatment and neither should the law enforcement folks that are complicit.Right, excellent point. It's not that if the law is unconstitutional, nobody should be in jail for it, but that if it's unconstitutional, everyone should be in jail for it. That's literally the worst possible take.
Straw man - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
lol
The Miller case failed because Miller was deadIt’s annoying the f*** out of me that Vickers gave those f***tards at the ATF this win. His dumb, arrogant ass is likely going to cause others to drop. They love to take down high profile folks like Vickers and send a message to his fans. They don’t give a shit about him being a veteran. He’s hard right anti-democrats and they love using someone like him as a poster child for hard right gun nuts. The ATF pricks are going to be circlejerking about this win for a long time to come.