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Breaking: ATF has sized some of Larry Vickers' collection
- Thread starter Goliathan
- Start date
Not sure if serious it's not a hypothesis its actually a printed law. The fact that it is hot garbage malum prohibitum BS and likely unconstitutional doesn't make it anything less of a law at least on the ground in current reality.
I don't disagree, and I also think that the fact that the laws are poorly written and the the ATF has too much regulatory authority on this is absurd.
Not to mention the whole thing is based on shitlogic.
If I am an 07 I can build 100 machine guns as post-samples all day long as long as I fabricated them and file the appropriate forms. But WOAH HOA!!!!!! everything changes if you want to buy one someone else made, then all the rules f***ing change.
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
Not only is the law likely unconstiutional, on top of that it is imbued with clown world bullshit.
a people who get incarcerated with no judgment for an 'intent to commit an intent' is absurd, but it is the current world we live in.
it is a deep crysis, on both legislative and enforcement sides. and i hope it will not end up like this, but it is where all of this is going to - and it is way easier to happen in an objective reality than some would think of it.
Exactly. The law is hot garbage. But it is the law at this time, so deliberately breaking because you want a machine gun that the law says you can’t have is the very definition of PSGWSP.
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Tartakovsky
NES Member
You must be new to the whole .gov experience.
I’m not OK with it, but I comply because I don’t want to be a felon and lose all my rights like Vickers.
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The Gun Influencer Who Used Small-Town Cops to Import Machine Guns
www.wsj.com
The Gun Influencer Who Used Small-Town Cops to Import Machine Guns
Larry Vickers, whose gun videos get millions of views on YouTube, pleaded guilty last year for his role in a conspiracy to illegally acquire machine guns.
www.wsj.com
I wouldn't call it deliberate so much as lazy/negligent, he probably thought it wouldn't matter, and most times, it probably doesn't.... but a bunch of dog and pony shows are cheap money compared to what he's probably paid an attorney. Probably would have fun doing it too.
I think it is safe to say that the ATF had been looking the other way for some time. But the idea of knowingly commiting a felony with the hope that you won't get caught, and leaving an electronic trail, yeah, that's pretty stupid.
But worse, getting a couple dealer sample letters AND THEN NEVER ACTUALLY DOING THE DEMO? How hard would it have been for him to go give a demo to the chief's in question? Go take a trip and take your buddy to the range, shoot off a few magazines, then take the chief out to dinner and drinks. That at least would be a legal fig leaf.
Mesatchornug
NES Member
I would agree with St. Augustine that "an unjust law is no law at all."
He screwed up. He got caught.
He bought his ticket and gets to ride the ride.
And now is the chance for SAF, FPC, etc. (maybe even the NRA?) to raise a case and repeal the laws. Larry is perfectly suited to be the 21st century Miller. What could more perfectly exemplify militia arms in 2024 than select-fire, intermediate cartridge carbines imported on demo letters for LE departments?
But he plead guilty, so there will be no appeals. Given that he is battling cancer, I understand why he took a plea bargain.
Tartakovsky
NES Member
It’s annoying the f*** out of me that Vickers gave those f***tards at the ATF this win. His dumb, arrogant ass is likely going to cause others to drop. They love to take down high profile folks like Vickers and send a message to his fans. They don’t give a shit about him being a veteran. He’s hard right anti-democrats and they love using someone like him as a poster child for hard right gun nuts. The ATF pricks are going to be circlejerking about this win for a long time to come.
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Right, excellent point. It's not that if the law is unconstitutional, nobody should be in jail for it, but that if it's unconstitutional, everyone should be in jail for it. That's literally the worst possible take.
Yeah, pretty wild he didn’t like invite them over when he made YouTube videos of said machine guns. That would have counted. Can you imagine you do this guy a favor and he can’t even thank you with an invite?
He sounds pretty arrogant.
Tartakovsky
NES Member
Demo Ranch did exactly that when he got his MP7.
For Vickers, the felony conviction means that one of the nation’s leading gun gurus can no longer own or possess firearms. He must forfeit his gun collection to the U.S. government. Prosecutors said he can still use airsoft guns, but only for active-shooter training.
“Nothing could be a greater punishment for him than his inability to possess, use and demonstrate the use of firearms,” said Gerald Ruter, his attorney.
“Nothing could be a greater punishment for him than his inability to possess, use and demonstrate the use of firearms,” said Gerald Ruter, his attorney.
I believe that he is dying of cancer. They had him dead to rights, so he would definitely lose in district court and likely be fighting this the rest of his life, quite likely from behind bars. So I completely understand why he took the plea.
Doubt. Most of this stuff is opportunistic for them. There's nothing exciting here other than an 07 that failed "nfa 101" basically, and had the misfortune to get caught doing it. The rest of the 07s are just going to yawn and continue with their lives. Maybe even get more demo letters next week.
Agnotology
NES Member
They're still circle jerking Ruby Ridge as a win so...
but remember, ruby ridge started with a pissed off neighbor lying to the government about Randy Weaver.
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From the news reports, it would appear that Vickers followed the letter of the law (The police reportedly did "request a demo") as there is no specific provision the the law that the demo occur, or that the SOT dealer have a proven history of actually marketing to police departments. In many cases, the letter of the law prevails in favor of the defendant, even in the presence of a credible argument that the spirit and intent of the law was subverted. This has historically not been the case with federal gun laws - and many reasonably attentive persons can figure this out. Another great example is the Maddi-Griffin case where the BATFE successfully convince the court to accept a new, expanded, federal definition of "firearm" when it came to that firms's 50cal parts kit (sold by a convicted felon could not own/handle or sell firearms).
Yet another determination is a federal court's determination that the "incidental to lawful purposes" section in the post office ban does not include the lawful purpose of concealed or open defensive carry.
The way the system is set up, his conviction would have been almost certain as the court would allows the BATFE to explain its version of the law, and perhaps even tell the jury the ATFs expert opinion should be given considerable weight. His only real chance would have been jury nullification, and competent voir dire by the prosecution would have close off that path.
And do not forget, that the courts punish people who turn down plea deals severely for the audacity of demanding a trial if they are convicted.
Yet another determination is a federal court's determination that the "incidental to lawful purposes" section in the post office ban does not include the lawful purpose of concealed or open defensive carry.
The way the system is set up, his conviction would have been almost certain as the court would allows the BATFE to explain its version of the law, and perhaps even tell the jury the ATFs expert opinion should be given considerable weight. His only real chance would have been jury nullification, and competent voir dire by the prosecution would have close off that path.
And do not forget, that the courts punish people who turn down plea deals severely for the audacity of demanding a trial if they are convicted.
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Is that what he did - not demo the weapons he applied to demo for? I thought I heard someone say that he actually followed the law to the letter, and the conviction was for subverting the spirit of the law.
His intent was to acquire the guns for his collection, not to acquire them in order to demo them to the police.
Dennis in MA
NES Member
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How about importing crap from a country we don't wanna import crap from? Possession was only part of it. Ignoring import laws under the guise of "helping out the Man" is what got them in trouble.
A ONE COP department requests multiple samples over the course of a few years? C'mon.
Straw man - Wikipedia
lol
See above. They did not request a demo. He asked them to request a demo and then they requested a demo. As evidenced. Hence why Larry pled guilty so damned fast. He KNEW he was F'd.
Tartakovsky
NES Member
Way to selectively quote half my comment. As I said, NFA, GCA and FOPA are the law, and I don't agree with them, believe that they're unconstitutional, but its still the law, and has been since 1986 and Vickers knowingly and willfully broke it. He shouldn't get special treatment and neither should the law enforcement folks that are complicit.
Straw man - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
lol
You do not know what that phrase means nor the context concerning my post.
pastera
NES Member
The Miller case failed because Miller was dead
So, why put the guy through a trial then appeals if he has cancer - If the guy isn't in a position to finish the fight then that puts us in the position of another Miller where the appellant is gone and the courts can feel free to screw everyone left.
