Ammo transport in MA

[Emoto]

A guy at my club claims that one must now have ammo in a separately locked container (separate from the guns) when travelling, like to a match. That makes one locked container for the gun and another for the ammo. Is this correct?

 

[KMaurer]

I guy in my old office claims that that JFK actually survived the shooting in Dallas and is secretly living in South America with Marilyn Monroe. There's as much proof for his claim as for your buddy's.

Ken

 

[Garys]

I guy in my old office claims that that JFK actually survived the shooting in Dallas and is secretly living in South America with Marilyn Monroe. There's as much proof for his claim as for your buddy's.

Ken

I thought she was living with Elvis?

On a semi serious note, if ammo had to be locked to be transported wouldn't every dealer have to sell a lock box or make sure we had one when we bought ammo?

Gary

 

[jhrosier]

A guy at my club claims that one must now have ammo in a separately locked container (separate from the guns) when travelling, like to a match. That makes one locked container for the gun and another for the ammo. Is this correct?

He may be mis-interpreting a CMR, buried somewhere in the section that perports to regulate gunpowder and the quantity of ammo that one may posess. IIRC,There is a "requirement" that ammo be stored in a locked container.
Someone who is more familiar with the CMR's may want to dig this one out for our collective entertainment.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Elvis was living with Salmon Rushie for a while (there was a Gary Larson cartoon about this).

There is a pretty wide variety of "made-up" laws people imaging:

1. "It's illegal to carry a gun into a bank" (not so in MA)

2. "It's illegal to carry into a bar" (not so either if you are not intoxicated)

3. "It's illegal to posess a firearms on school grounds." (Nope, it has to be "on your person" to qualify as a 10j violation - although many police and lawyers are not aware of this)

4. "You have the right to remain silent when questioned about a crime." Maybe so, but the district court has held that even if revocation of an LTC in retaliation for such silence is not appropriate, "the remedy is not the restoration of the license."

 

[Len-2A Training]

That must be the reason why the AG banned all ammo sales into MA!!

The common carriers couldn't guarantee that all ammo was transported and left in lock boxes!

Gotta be true, I read it on the Internet!

 

[Len-2A Training]

He may be mis-interpreting a CMR, buried somewhere in the section that perports to regulate gunpowder and the quantity of ammo that one may posess. IIRC,There is a "requirement" that ammo be stored in a locked container.
Someone who is more familiar with the CMR's may want to dig this one out for our collective entertainment.

Yes, this is true and a search of this Gun Laws forum will turn up the quotes and cites.

 

[jhrosier]

Check my post in the "ammo storage requirements" thread.

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3719

The same subject is being discussed in two threads. That'll make your head hurt!

 

[traveler57]

3. "It's illegal to posess a firearms on school grounds." (Nope, it has to be "on your person" to qualify as a 10j violation - although many police and lawyers are not aware of this)

Rob,

So this answers my question about being okay to put my carry gun into my locked trunk, and then go into the school to get my kids, or attend their scout meeting? Of course, I am sure someone will say that I am "carrying on my person" when I go from the front seat of my car to the trunk. But, I would still have to unload first. Which, this being a bit dangerous, has been discussed in past posts.

Of course, I hope no one suggests that I simply go home to store my gun everytime I go to the parking lot to get my kids, as that would be what i do now.
My goal is to carry all the time. For those of you who are only carrying part-time, I don't know how you "pick" which times are the "best" times to carry. Sounds like my friends who only carry life jackets in their boats, when it is easy for them. Or only having car insurance when you drive in "bad" areas or "bad" traffic. For me, what does part-time carry really accomplish? You carry for your personal protection or for the protection of your family, but only part-time?...... For me, that doesn't compute. But, everyone is entitled to their opinions....

BTW- to stop posts about it being "bad" to leave a gun in the car at all. (This topic has been pretty well covered last year.) I will mention that I just installed a small handgun safe into my trunk, and bolted it down. And yes, my car has a fairly high end alarm and kill switch. And I agree, still not as good as having my gun in my holster or in my home safe. But, if I go to my kid's school or to the airport, or have two+ beers somewhere, it is still much better than breaking the law. IMHO.

 

[traveler57]

Sorry, but did anyone have an good answer to Emoto's original question? "ammo in a separately locked container (separate from the guns) when travelling"

(the other threads referred to, although great, focus on home storage of ammo, and not on ammo stored in a trunk of a car.) BTW- Sorry if I almost highjacked this thread with my previous post about school CCW.

I have been told that the unloaded gun and the ammo can be in the same locked container. But, I have seen disagreements (with no conclusion) on whether the ammo can remain in the separate & removed magazine, or if the ammo has to be taken out of the magazine too. I think this issue goes back to what MGL's define as "loaded" for a firearm.

Side note-(related?)-- I have traveled with my firearms on airlines with the boxed ammo in the same locked case as the firearms, and the TSA said nothing during their inspection.
But, never with ammo in the mag itself. Of course, my goal at the airport is to not miss my plane because of TSA.

 

[Len-2A Training]

There is NO MGL or CMR regarding "transport of ammo" that requires that it be locked up (never mind locked in another container separate from the firearm).

Anyone who says differently . . . just ask them to cite you the law, chapter and section!

 

[traveler57]

Thanks Len, this is the kind of clear answer that this forum is absolutely great for. And coming from you, rather than me, it has more meaning.

I agree with you, and as for me, I have simply followed the "unloaded" part of the MGL and put everything in the same place in the trunk. But, just thinking outloud now, but you are saying that I could keep the ammo up front (say under the seat) and then carry my unloaded gun to the trunk? This unloaded gun then would keep me legal as to the carrying on school property, on the way to the trunk? Maybe?

Thanks again.

 

[Cross-X]

Calling all cars -- Derek is starting a legal defense fund for Traveler57, who is pushing the envelope, again.

Traveler wants to be that if a cop finds he has a trunk full of guns on school property, that officer won't, erroneously, arrest him on a charge of carrying a firearm on school property.

All donations, large or small, are appreciated.




Seriously, what many people forget is this: not all police officers can be relied upon to have perfect knowledge of the application of MA's firearms laws. Many who are not sure will simply arrest and let the district attorney's office lawyers sort it out.

An arrest can ruin your whole day.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The "on one's person" on school property is pretty clear in the law, as 269 10/j contains reference to "on one's person" whereas other prohibitions in that section bear no such distinction. I checked this out with some LEO sources who were able to ask those within the legal system and found out that (a) this conclusion is correct and (b) there have been cases dropped after charges were brought due to the gun not being "on the person" of the suspect.

That being said:

(a) Many, perhaps most, police don't know this. Explaining an arrest, even with a subsquent dropping of charges, is an uphill battle when dealing with any discretionary licensing jurisdiction. MA and RI come to mind, however, I belive that CT is also discretionary (though that state usually says "yes"). This is even more of a problem if the item for which the charges were dropped is a crime in the location where you are applying.

(b) The concept that "gun+schools=dead childred stacked up like cordwood" is so ingrained in our culture that it is very likley that a violation of this non-law would render you a "person not suitable to be so licensed" by some chiefs who wished 269/10j was more encompassing. Consider the local paper - would a chief rather read an article about a civilian appealing a license revocation for having guns at the local school, or read the title "Chief returns gun license to man caught with guns at the school"?

(c) Leave unloaded handguns locked in your trunk at a school and you'll not only risk arrest for this crime, but also risk arrest for leaving unattended firearms in a motor vehicle (which has not been a crime since Chapter 180 added the requirement that said firearms must be loaded).

 

[Emoto]

Thanks for all the reponses, guys!

I will try to find out where this guy got the idea. He's an articulate and educated fellow, so I was concerned that there might have been something to it. Thanks for clearing that up.

Bob

 

[traveler57]

Darius,

Don't worry, I am fully aware of the problems of "following the law" and the LEO's that don't know what the law is.
This is PRM and I know I must be more than just a bit careful.

Further, I agree with Rob, that my true driving force is "being suitable" for the LTC, so I fully agree that being right in the law is useless in Mass when I have to defend myself in court against an invalid arrest. Because, as everyone assumes, the local chief will have a perfect reason to suspend my LTC just for getting into a "gray" situation.

I guess I am driven by being fully informed on what the law actually says, and then use my judgement on what I do and don't do. On the other side, many people simply believe what they hear, and don't know the law. I simply don't want to be one of those people. And this is where all the misinformation comes from, and where this forum is great help to sort them all out.

Also, don't worry, regardless of all your bad jokes in other posts, I know you are the lawyer I would hire. And, yes, I would be happy to make you rich(er) if I got into a situation where I was fully legal and I was falsely arrested. But, this will never happen, don't worry.....

But then again, if I don't need to pay you, then think of all the new guns I could buy, with the US$50,000 that I would save!!!


So, a real world example-
So you are carrying, away from your home, and your wife calls and asks you to pick up the kids at school. What do you do?:
a) go to the school CCW
b) go to the school parking lot, stow your unloaded gun in the trunk
c) park off school property, stow your unloaded gun in the trunk inside a gun safe (Darius- this would ONE gun, NOT a "trunk full."
d) tell your wife to pick up the kids herself, even though she would be over an hour late
e) call your kids a cab


a) is illegal, b) is legal but some here say ill advised, c) is what I have actually done before, and d) & e) are pretty stupid

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Darius,
....
b) go to the school parking lot, stow your unloaded gun in the trunk
....
b) is legal but some here say ill advised

MGL contains no exemption to the ban of "on your person" for the purpose of handling the gun in the school parking lot, or even driving to the parking lot while on school property if the gun is "on your person" during the drive.

 

[Cross-X]

C is a sensible choice. The most cautious among us would unholster inside the passenger compartment, conceal the gun in a bag, towel, briefcase or somesuch, before taking the gun to the trunk and quickly stashing it in the vault in the trunk.

 

[JonJ]

C is a sensible choice. The most cautious among us would unholster inside the passenger compartment, conceal the gun in a bag, towel, briefcase or somesuch, before taking the gun to the trunk and quickly stashing it in the vault in the trunk.

Prior to entering the school grounds.

 

[Coyote33]

...a trunk full of guns on school property, that officer won't, erroneously, arrest him on a charge of carrying a firearm on school property.
...Seriously, what many people forget is this: not all police officers can be relied upon to have perfect knowledge of the application of MA's firearms laws. Many who are not sure will simply arrest and let the district attorney's office lawyers sort it out....An arrest can ruin your whole day.

Are the police specifically exempt from this law? If so, what is the chapter and section saying so? Or do they also need specific permission?


Second, how are "school grounds" defined? If you have to stop at a crossing to let kids go by, and someone looks in and sees something, does that "count"? Even if you live on a street with a school and are on the way to the range or whatever?

 

[JonJ]

Yes, LEO exempt:
MGL Chp269s10
Paragraph j:

Whoever, not being a law enforcement officer, and notwithstanding any license obtained by him under the provisions of chapter one hundred and forty, carries on his person a firearm as hereinafter defined, loaded or unloaded or other dangerous weapon in any building or on the grounds of any elementary or secondary school, college or university without the written authorization of the board or officer in charge of such elementary or secondary school, college or university shall be punished by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or both. For the purpose of this paragraph, “firearm” shall mean any pistol, revolver, rifle or smoothbore arm from which a shot, bullet or pellet can be discharged by whatever means.

Any officer in charge of an elementary or secondary school, college or university or any faculty member or administrative officer of an elementary or secondary school, college or university failing to report violations of this paragraph shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and punished by a fine of not more than five hundred dollars.

The answer to your second question, no. The street in front would not be the school grounds.