.40 or 9mm

[atmay]

How does that work? The .40 head is bigger than a 9mm head by a bunch, is the extractor just huge enough to work even with all the sideways slop?

It's a .5mm difference. The .40 (or 10mm) case is only about 1mm wider than the 9mm case, so the difference in what the extractor has to grab onto is only about .5mm

Some folks swap their extractors with a conversion barrel, some don't. If your gun will run reliably without the swap, there's no reason to.

 

[Lamina]

Any recoil that will make my elbows bend or pushes me back and I will no longer get a consistent reset

So how much affect would you say the mass of the shooter has on being able to run fast follow ups?

 

[drgrant]

All this "get the 9mm so its easier to shoot" but the 40 gets the rap for pussification. WTF?

It's because the .40 S+W has the misfortune of having been the child product of the 10mm Auto. It's also intentionally weakened from its parent, not too many other cartridges have that claim attached to them. Industry/gurnrag veterans have always looked upon the cartridge as a "cut down/neutered 10mm".

In the eyes of the reloader that characterization also makes sense, because it is one of the few handgun cartridges that you can't really experiment much with before you blow the gun up. All kinds of folks hotrod 9mm, .45, .38 Super, etc, etc.... but nobody
bothers hot-rodding a .40, because the act of doing so, in reloader terms, is like trying to put a chevy big block in a Geo Metro. There's no way to (viably) do it within the physical constraints of the "vehicle". So, even those that reload it, view it as a cartridge with little upward capability.

The .40 S+W is an OK cartridge but it can't really ever escape the stigmas described above.

-Mike

 

[Lamina]

It's because the .40 S+W has the misfortune of having been the child product of the 10mm Auto. It's also intentionally weakened from its parent, not too many other cartridges have that claim attached to them. Industry/gurnrag veterans have always looked upon the cartridge as a "cut down/neutered 10mm".

In the eyes of the reloader that characterization also makes sense, because it is one of the few handgun cartridges that you can't really experiment much with before you blow the gun up. All kinds of folks hotrod 9mm, .45, .38 Super, etc, etc.... but nobody
bothers hot-rodding a .40, because the act of doing so, in reloader terms, is like trying to put a chevy big block in a Geo Metro. There's no way to (viably) do it within the
physical constraints of the "vehicle". So, even those that reload it, view it as a cartridge with little upward capability.

The .40 S+W is an OK cartridge but it can't really ever escape the stigmas described
above.

-Mike

I've heard it stated before that "not many cartridges are intentional neutering of their parent cartridges"... but really, how small is that pool? I don't know a shit ton about cartridge histories, but I can't think of any others. Maybe .45GAP is a similar concept, but the intentions were different.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

All this "get the 9mm so its easier to shoot" but the 40 gets the rap for pussification. WTF?

+1
I find this viewpoint amusing as well.

It's because .40 was designed for pussies that couldn't handle the 10mm. And yes, I do have a .40 barrel for my 10mm, because 10mm is retardedly expensive.

Call the .40 what it really is a 10MM SHORT

There it is.

ETA: Mike beat me to it.

 

[Supermoto]

So how much affect would you say the mass of the shooter has on being able to run fast follow ups?

I have seen some very small people shoot snappy guns very quickly

 

[drgrant]

I've heard it stated before that "not many cartridges are intentional neutering of their parent cartridges"... but really, how small is that pool? I don't know a shit ton about cartridge histories, but I can't think of any others. Maybe .45GAP is a similar concept, but the intentions were different.

I imagine the pool is pretty small. There's stuff like the 17HM2, for example, which even though it doesn't use exactly the same parent case, the idea was an intentionally neutered .17HMR round that would fit into a frame/format of a typical .22LR autoloader. (EG, for example it would be trivial to convert a Ruger 10/22 to fire 17HM2 with a barrel change. ) the 17HM2 is still fast but its not as fast and hard hitting as its "parent" is, though.

The .45 GAP was more to reduce the size of the gun than the power. In stock config it actually does +P .45 ACP velocities, although, like the .40, there's real place to go from there. It basically got killed off by the Springfield XD .45 though (and pretty much everything that followed it, eg, the Glock short frames in .45).

-Mike

 

[Lamina]

Both examples given don't really convey the same motivations of the .40 with intentionally making a round "weaker".

So that may just make a .40 a sincerely unique, albeit tragically unique, round.

ETA: man, how good was smith's marketing campaign to make the .40 what it is today?

 

[ChevyGuy91]

ETA: man, how good was smith's marketing campaign to make the .40 what it is today?

My buddy's reason for buying .40 everything, it's what the cops use.

 

[drgrant]

I'd like to see that.

Stock glocks would make for a good test.

17 shooting any 115gn +P.

22 shooting any 165gn +p

21SF (to try and maintain as close a grip size as possible) shooting any 185gn +P.

Note, I went with light rounds, but I suppose the test would be just as valid with heavy rounds.

There is no +P in .40 S+W. The hottest thing you can buy is 155s or 165s. Some claim the 155s have more recoil, depending.

It all depends on the shooter. I know some good action shooters with beefy forearms and oven mitts for hands. there won't be a big difference between all of these guns on such a shooter if he's holding the gun right. For ME there might be a difference, but I have hands that are best described as small. Even then I doubt the difference would be gargantuan, at least not in a one off situation. For example let's say the challenge was shooting 30 falling steel targets at 25-30 feet or so and timing the run (with a capacity limit of 10 rounds per mag to balance the reloads out) I doubt the difference between the 9/40/45 would be that much different. In my case I would run the test with 9mm 124 +P, Duty grade 165 gr .40 S+W, and warm 230 gr ball ammo in .45 (830-850 FPS) .

I agree your advice generally works better on joe newb, though. I see a lot of people dump .40s, especially compact ones, because they never learned how to deal with the recoil/snap and got frustrated. A new shooter and a compact .40 is often a recipe for disaster, especially if he or she has no instructional help on tap. That doesn't mean that it's always a failure, though. I think the main sucky thing with a .40 for newbs is if they are buying ammo it deters them from buying extra ammo because of the cost difference. You can get 9mm for $200 a case or so. Good luck trying to get that price in .40.



-Mike

 

[ChevyGuy91]

There could be a good reason for that depending on how you view the world.

I doubt he is planning on picking up the magazines full of ammo laying in the streets a day after the SHTF. He is just kind of a ninja.

 

[Lamina]

There is no +P in .40 S+W. The hottest thing you can buy is 155s or 165s. Some claim the 155s have more recoil, depending.

It all depends on the shooter. I know some good action shooters with beefy forearms and oven mitts for hands. there won't be a big difference between all of these guns on such a shooter if he's holding the gun right. For ME there might be a difference, but I have hands that are best described as small. Even then I doubt the difference would be gargantuan, at least not in a one off situation. For example let's say the challenge was shooting 30 falling steel targets at 25-30 feet or so and timing the run (with a capacity limit of 10 rounds per mag to balance the reloads out) I doubt the difference between the 9/40/45 would be that much different. In my case I would run the test with 9mm 124 +P, Duty grade 165 gr .40 S+W, and warm 230 gr ball ammo in .45 (830-850 FPS) .

I agree your advice generally works better on joe newb, though. I see a lot of people dump .40s, especially compact ones, because they never learned how to deal with the recoil/snap and got frustrated. A new shooter and a compact .40 is often a recipe for disaster, especially if he or she has no instructional help on tap. That doesn't mean that it's always a failure, though. I think the main sucky thing with a .40 for newbs is if they are buying ammo it deters them from buying extra ammo because of the cost difference. You can get 9mm for $200 a case or so. Good luck trying to get that price in .40.



-Mike

I didn't think .40 had a plus P offering, but I added it to be safe. A more accurate statement would have been a "hot .40". .40 is already running pretty high pressure... 65,000 or something crazy like that, right? +P would pretty much be better described as "kaboom".

 

[DavidC77]

It is going to come down to which one YOU like.

Shoot them both and decide by which one you shoot better.

The 9 ammo is cheaper, the 40 is a little more recoil.

One thing you can do with the 40 though is buy a 357 Sig. barrel. The barrel just drops in like your 40 would and you can use the gun for two different calibers with no changes. The M&P magazines are for a S&W 40 round or the 357 Sig round, same magazine no changes. Same gun no changes or modifacation needed.

I have a 40 compact and a full size.

I would have bought a 45, but at the time I bought my fullsize the 45 was not being made so I went with the 40. then when the 40 compact came out I bought that as I had everything allready for the 40. Now that being said if the 45 compact were to make the list to be sold in MASS I might sell my 40 FS and compact and buy a 45 fullsize and a compact. The only thing wrong there is then I would have to buy new holsters, magazines, lasers, ext. So at this point I am to far into the guns I have now to change without it costing me way to much money to change.

I thing I would add to you buying a 9 or 40 is to buy them with a Crimson Trace laser, that is one option that is well worth the investment. You can buy a gun with it on it allready and get the S&W logo, or you can buy it afterwords and it will come with the CT logo. I bought the CT's at S&W because I wanted the S&W logo, that's just what I wanted though, the lasers are the same laser, one just has the gun company logo and the other has the laser companys logo.

Again it all comes down to what you shoot the best !!!

Enjoy and good luck !!!

 

[jasons]

.357 Sig

 

[It Works Everytime]

Meh FWIW, I found this on the intraweb:

"The energy delivered by most 9 mm loads allows for adequate expansion and penetration with premium JHP bullets. Illinois State Police, Border Patrol, Federal Air Marshals and United States Secret Service favored and used 115 grain +P+ 9 mm loads at 1,300 ft/s for years with excellent results.[17] Lethal Force expert Massad Ayoob has stated that the "Tried, Tested, and True" 115 grain +P or +P+ is the best self defense load in this caliber.[citation needed] Proponents of the hydrostatic shock theory contend that the energy of the 9mm cartridge is capable of imparting remote wounding effects known as hydrostatic shock, in human-sized living targets."

 

[drgrant]

Meh FWIW, I found this on the intraweb:

"The energy delivered by most 9 mm loads allows for adequate expansion and penetration with premium JHP bullets. Illinois State Police, Border Patrol, Federal Air Marshals and United States Secret Service favored and used 115 grain +P+ 9 mm loads at 1,300 ft/s for years with excellent results.[17] Lethal Force expert Massad Ayoob has stated that the "Tried, Tested, and True" 115 grain +P or +P+ is the best self defense load in this caliber.[citation needed] Proponents of the hydrostatic shock theory contend that the energy of the 9mm cartridge is capable of imparting remote wounding effects known as hydrostatic shock, in human-sized living targets."

That sounds pretty dated. Most of the best performing ammo for 9mm is in the 124-147 weight range. Lots of +P and +P+ loadings, too. (Not to mention those in the know think hydrostatic shock in most typical handgun calibers is a myth, but thats a whole other ball of wax)

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

I didn't think .40 had a plus P offering, but I added it to be safe. A more accurate statement would have been a "hot .40". .40 is already running pretty high pressure... 65,000 or something crazy like that, right? +P would pretty much be better described as "kaboom".

.40 S+W +P = 10mm Auto

-Mike

 

[It Works Everytime]

I just googled 9mm+P and that was one of the first things that popped up, I'm not staking claim to the info, just passing it along.
I just don't understand why the general consensus is that the 9mm is "weak" or "underpowered" when modern +P ammo is readily available and not "weak" by any means.
For instance, this is just copy and pasted from wikipiedia, but the ballistics appear to be similar correct me if I'm wrong.
9mm:
Manufacturer Load Mass (grains) Velocity (ft/s) Energy (ft·lbf) Expansion (inches)[19] Penetration (inches)[19] PC[19] (in3) TSC[19(in3)
Cor-Bon JHP 115 1350 465 0.55 14.2 3.4 38.5

40S&W:
Manufacturer Load Mass (grains) Velocity (ft/s) Energy (ft·lbf) Expansion (inches)[21] Penetration (inches)[21] PC[21] (cu in) TSC[21] (cu in)
Cor-Bon JHP 135 1300 507 0.56 9.8 2.4 69.1

 

[It Works Everytime]

Nevermind... It bunched everything up on me when I posted it. Here's the links.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9719mm_Parabellum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.40_S%26W

 

[jeffC]

On the defensive aspect.... I'm going to quote what an old navy seal once told me when i asked this same question in a shop years ago, when i just started out.... "no one i've ever shot with a 9mm has ever complained about the bullet being too small." I take that sentence with me everyday while carrying a G17.
Get the 9, and train train train on your placement. When your done, take all the money you've saved on ammo and buy a .40sw. Everyone needs at least ONE safe queen.

 

[fencer]

For range use- 9mm is cheaper and way easier to find, extra mags are easier to find.
For home defense, go with the biggest round you can shoot well. Since this is your first gun, I would start with a 9mm since you probably don't shoot anything well at this point.
I don't think there is a single NES member with one gun, so don't get hung up on it, you're going to buy a few more guns before you know it.

Best advice in the thread

 

[M1911]

I have seen some very small people shoot snappy guns very quickly

Wow.

 

[Deezul]

Wow. Confused. Maybe 9mm since its my first? Had no idea of the .40 hate.

 

[mac67]

Hmm I will have to look in to this. Has anyone here successfully tried this?

ETA: A quick search revealed this: http://www.storm-lake.com/products/barrel/builder/SW#top
a 9mm conversion barrel is $160. I saw some people on a different forum claiming that the .40 may not function reliably running 9mm because of different extractor and head spacing. Any truth to this?

I'm running a KKM 9mm in an M&P 40 compact. Aside from the suck mag follower's the gun runs like a sewing machine. I combined it w/Xgrip mag sleeves for the range. And to the OP... IF you have your heart set on the M&P plan on spending the xtra $ on a complete APEX kit OR bring it to a local NES smith.

If it's just for range/home I'd go w/the full size. If you decide later to CC buy another gun

 

[M1911]

Wow. Confused. Maybe 9mm since its my first?.

Yes. It will have less recoil so you will be less inclined to flinch (often an issue for new shooters) and it will be cheaper so you can practice more. Get the 9mm.

 

[tictac]

Wow. This thread has it all. 9mm haters, M&P bashers and grammar nazis on the loose.

Here is a hover bear to complete the package.

 

[Squished]

I'd go with .38 special.

 

[Keystone]

Wow. Confused. Maybe 9mm since its my first? Had no idea of the .40 hate.

I'd go with the 9mm (and did).

I am not you. If you shoot the .40, like it better, and don't mind the extra ammo cost, buy the .40. Ignore the hate. Most of the hate is ideological, stemming around the fact that the .40 is an answer without a question. It'll do it's job in the gun, whatever that job is.

 

[Dench]

Wow. Confused. Maybe 9mm since its my first? Had no idea of the .40 hate.

The .40 SW hate here is a cliche joke at this point.

The 9mm will kick less, hold more rounds and be much cheaper to shoot

The .40 will kick more, hold 1-3 less rounds depending on frame size and be more expensive to shoot.

I own one .40, a G27. The rest of my pistols are 9mm and .357 SIG and 380.

 

[NuCentMAn]

+1 not a fan of M&P. Go HK or atleast Glock

+1, out of all the M&P sucks/ no it doesn't debates I've read on this forum or others, rarely do see HK presented as an alternative, probably because of cost or availability if in MA, but superb shooter in my experience.