Manual safety or not? 365X

[M1911]

So, shooting in complete darkness, with people infront of your draw and reholstering and doing stuff you were nervous about.

Sounds like a clusterf*** of a class

The things some instructors do make me shake my head.

This one was classic James Yeager:

 

[M1911]

The Israelis are carrying it wrong. What good is a mag if the bullets are sideways lol

View attachment 856340

That’s two magazines with a weird 90 degree coupler.

 

[G4Y4HK]

The things some instructors do make me shake my head.

This one was classic James Yeager:

View attachment 856341

Not as crazy as the Russkies shooting 9 mil ball into a trainees IIIA plate


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Zj7RNGEo8g

 

[G4Y4HK]

That’s two magazines with a weird 90 degree coupler.

I thought they had to carry it 'unloaded and unchambered' and the mag was like that as a convenient holder in case they needed to spring into action. Tell bad guy to wait, flip over mag, load mag, rack bolt, aim and shoot.

 

[Darkslide]

The things some instructors do make me shake my head.

This one was classic James Yeager:

View attachment 856341

I’d hate to be the cameraman, but those drills are useful. Never know when you need to defend yourself while on the ground. What if you’re banging some guy’s wife and he comes barging in with a shotgun… you’d wish you trained shooting from that position

 

[cams]

You think every gun fight starts and ends in your favor? What if you were at an amusement park strapped on a ride and some mass shooter opens fire on your kids? This is what training is for, to prepare you for shit that could happen, but doing so in a safe environment.

This is one of the best “Ya but what if…” I’ve seen in a while. lol

 

[M1911]

I’d hate to be the cameraman, but those drills are useful. Never know when you need to defend yourself while on the ground. Imagine you’re banging some guy’s wife and he comes barging in with a shotgun… you’d wish you trained shooting from that position

I don’t have any problem with the drill of shooting from the ground — we did that in one of Ayoob’s classes (either LFI-1 or 2). The instructor does have to be very careful in how he has the students recover from that position, so that they don’t muzzle themselves or anyone else.

What I was commenting about was not the drill but the photographer downrange. That photographer was one of Yeager’s instructors. Reportedly that happened multiple times. It is completely negligent. It violates every rule of firearm safety. Yeager and his nuthiggers vociferously defended having the photographer downrange.

This is a particularly good example of why you shouldn’t take everything an instructor says as gospel — some of them say or do some pretty stupid things.

 

[M1911]

Not as crazy as the Russkies shooting 9 mil ball into a trainees IIIA plate


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Zj7RNGEo8g

Russians. Safety is not high on their priority list.

 

[Darkslide]

I don’t have any problem with the drill of shooting from the ground — we did that in one of Ayoob’s classes (either LFI-1 or 2). The instructor does have to be very careful in how he has the students recover from that position, so that they don’t muzzle themselves or anywhere else.

What I was commenting about was not the drill but the photographer downrange. That photographer was one of Yeager’s instructors. Reportedly that happened multiple times. It is completely negligent. It violates every rule of firearm safety. Yeager and his nuthiggers vociferously defended having the photographer downrange.

This is a particularly good example of why you shouldn’t take everything an instructor says as gospel.

Wow… I don’t know what’s worse, them letting the photographer down range, or the photographer being dumb enough to do it.

 

[M1911]

Wow… I don’t know what’s worse, them letting the photographer down range, or the photographer being dumb enough to do it.

Or the students not having the fortitude to walk off the range when that nonsense started.

If people start to do something really stupid on the range and you can’t stop it, then don’t hang around to watch the show.

 

[Grendizer138]

[…]
What I was commenting about was not the drill but the photographer downrange. That photographer was one of Yeager’s instructors. Reportedly that happened multiple times. It is completely negligent. It violates every rule of firearm safety. Yeager and his nuthiggers vociferously defended having the photographer downrange.

This is a particularly good example of why you shouldn’t take everything an instructor says as gospel — some of them say or do some pretty stupid things.

Which of the 4 rules of firearm safety is the shooter violating here?

 

[M1911]

Which of the 4 rules of firearm safety is the shooter violating here?

Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction. If a person is standing right next to the target you are pointing at, that is not a safe direction.

 

[Grendizer138]

Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction. If a person is standing right next to the target you are pointing at, that is not a safe direction.

He’s 4’ away from the targets being used by shooters who are 5’ away.

Unless that target he’s literally in front of is being used, in which case even I think that’s f***ed up

 

[M1911]

He’s 4’ away from the targets being used by shooters who are 5’ away.

Unless that target he’s literally in front of is being used, in which case even I think that’s f***ed up

That’s not true. Look at the picture above. The shooters are quite a bit further than 5’ from the targets.

Having anyone downrange is a violation of the first rule of firearms safety and is unsafe, even if they are not directly adjacent to a target. It is also completely unnecessary— tripods and remote releases are a thing.

 

[Grendizer138]

That’s not true. Look at the picture above. The shooters are quite a bit further than 5’ from the targets.

Having anyone downrange is a violation of the first rule of firearms safety and is unsafe, even if they are not directly adjacent to a target. It is also completely unnecessary— tripods and remote releases are a thing.

I disagree with simply being “down range” as a violation of the 4 rules, it’s a “range rule”.

But I agree that it’s unnecessary in this instance.

 

[M1911]

I disagree with simply being “down range” as a violation of the 4 rules, it’s a “range rule”.

As an NRA certified firearms instructor, NRA certified range officer, and formerly an IDPA Safety Officer, I disagree with you most strenuously. No one should be downrange while someone is shooting — it is a safety violation.

 

[Grendizer138]

As an NRA certified firearms instructor, NRA certified range officer, and formerly an IDPA Safety Officer, I disagree with you most strenuously. No one should be downrange while someone is shooting — it is a safety violation.

It’s fine you disagree, I’m not going to try to change your mind. It’s a range rule, and suited for NRA stuff and IDP matches, not training for gun fighting.

Edit: I’m not even saying it’s bad practice, just that “safe direction” is subjective, and there’s some value for advanced gun training because there are no berms in the real world

 

[M1911]

It’s fine you disagree, I’m not going to try to change your mind. It’s a range rule, and suited for NRA stuff and IDP matches, not training for gun fighting.

Edit: I’m not even saying it’s bad practice, just that “safe direction” is subjective, and there’s some value for advanced gun training lie that because there are no berms in the real world

Oh, God. Not the “there’s no safe direction in the real world” argument. Thanks basically puffing up your chest and saying “we need to take unnecessary risks in training because….reasons.”

If you want to do advanced training with shooting in the direction of other people, that is what force-on-force (Simunitions or Airsoft) is for, not live guns.

 

[Grendizer138]

Oh, God. Not the “there’s no safe direction in the real world” argument. Thanks basically puffing up your chest and saying “we need to take unnecessary risks in training because….reasons.”

If you want to do advanced training with shooting in the direction of other people, that is what force-on-force (Simunitions or Airsoft) is for, not live guns.

Ok, dude. I’ll be hones with you, I stopped remotely caring about your opinion when you used your NRA credentials.

There is no berm in the real world and advanced shooters should be able to manipulate a gun with people around without flagging them. But as usual, your opinion will never change. I’m still waiting on how you “look a gun” into a holster in the dark.

 

[M1911]

Ok, dude. I’ll be hones with you, I stopped remotely caring about your opinion when you used your NRA credentials.

There is no berm in the real world and advanced shooters should be able to manipulate a gun with people around without flagging them. But as usual, your opinion will never change. I’m still waiting on how you “look a gun” into a holster in the dark.

My NRA credentials just shows that I do actually have some formal training on the subject, more than most shooters.

Shooting with someone downrange is unsafe and unnecessary, even for advanced training. You don’t have to put people at risk downrange in order to train people to manipulate a gun safely without pointing it at others.

 

[Grendizer138]

My NRA credentials just shows that I do actually have some formal training on the subject, more than most shooters.

Shooting with someone downrange is unsafe and unnecessary, even for advanced training. You don’t have to put people at risk downrange in order to train people to manipulate a gun safely without pointing it at others.

You said that already. So no bounding drills either I guess?

You do you, boss

 

[Supermoto]

People think that increasing their risk makes their training better

 

[M1911]

You said that already. So no bounding drills either I guess?

Do military and police units need to do things like bounding drills? Yes, they do. They need to do training like bounding drills and shoot house entry that includes elevated risk.

When is that type of training relevant to your average non law enforcement civilian? When are you going to be in a team doing a bounding assault against an enemy position?

There are things that we do that involve risk. For example, holstering a loaded gun involves risk, but we do it because it is necessary for both training and for everyday carry — we need to train at holstering and drawing. But we should avoid unnecessary risk.

 

[Grendizer138]

Do military and police units need to do things like bounding drills? Yes, they do. They need to do training like bounding drills and shoot house entry that includes elevated risk.

When is that type of training relevant to your average non law enforcement civilian? When are you going to be in a team doing a bounding assault against an enemy position?

There are things that we do that involve risk. For example, holstering a loaded gun involves risk, but we do it because it is necessary for both training and for everyday carry — we need to train at holstering and drawing. But we should avoid unnecessary risk.

I didn’t read past the first sentence. Yes, we’re all LARPing to a degree.

 

[Supermoto]

I didn’t read past the first sentence. Yes, we’re all LARPing to a degree.

Some a lot more than others.

 

[Grendizer138]

Some a lot more than others.

Lol. You guys are training to aim at berms and I think you should train to not aim at people.

Keep training, everyone was an amateur at one point. .

 

[Supermoto]

Lol. You guys are training to aim at berms and I think you should train to not aim at people.

Keep training, everyone was an amateur at one point. .

We are all amateurs, none of us are on a assault team, adding unnecessary risk so that you can live out your fantasy is stupid.

But keep wearing your costume and pretend you're something you could never be.

 

[Grendizer138]

We are all amateurs, none of us are on a assault team, adding unnecessary risk so that you can live out your fantasy is stupid.

But keep wearing your costume and pretend you're something you could never be.

Correct! Lol. And I have the 5.11 pants to prove it!

I will put this in terms that even you can understand, then I’m putting you on ignore. Even your insults are dumb.

We won’t agree on what qualifies as “unnecessary risk,” so putting that aside..my point is that none of Col. Jeff Cooper’s four safety rules are necessarily broken by a person being downrange of another shooter. The fact that you guys accept that it’s not breaking a rule when LEOs do bounding drills confirms that it’s a “range rule.”

So, your goal posts went from having a guy downrange “breaks every safety rule”...to “it breaks one rule”…to “well, it’s only breaking a rule when it’s non-LEO,”.

You don’t think civilians should train for skills they almost certainly won’t need because it’s “unnecessary.” Got it.

Do I think it’s kinda dumb to have a cameraman downrange for a picture? Yes.

Good day!

 

[Supermoto]

Correct! Lol. And I have the 5.11 pants to prove it!

I will put this in terms that even you can understand, then I’m putting you on ignore. Even your insults are dumb.

We won’t agree on what qualifies as “unnecessary risk,” so putting that aside..my point is that none of Col. Jeff Cooper’s four safety rules are necessarily broken by a person being downrange of another shooter. The fact that you guys accept that it’s not breaking a rule when LEOs do bounding drills confirms that it’s a “range rule.”

So, your goal posts went from having a guy downrange “breaks every safety rule”...to “it breaks one rule”…to “well, it’s only breaking a rule when it’s non-LEO,”.

You don’t think civilians should train for skills they almost certainly won’t need because it’s “unnecessary.” Got it.

Do I think it’s kinda dumb to have a cameraman downrange for a picture? Yes.

Good day!

I didn't say any of that.

You do make believe here as well as you do while training. Go back your dungeons and dragons.

f***ing tactical timmies and your clown instructors

 

[Ron Jablonski]

I don't want to go off topic but I vote no manual safety on a 365. If it's carried in a proper kydex holster it's no more dangerous than sitting in your safe, IMHO.