ATF new report shows FFLs are not the problem

[CrackPot]

ATF Firearm Trafficking Report: Licensed Retailers Aren’t the Problem

ATF released a report that‘s been years in the making and the stark reality is that the Biden administration’s admonishments of the firearm industry are entirely off target.

www.nssf.org

The article is worth a quick read. The last time they analyzed trafficked guns back in 2000, 9% of the guns were from "Corrupt FFLs". The new report shows that between 2017 and 2021 1.6% of trafficked guns were because of "Corrupt FFLs"; 80% are straw purchases and private transactions.

So the zero tolerance policy towards FFLs is putting resources in the wrong place. The ATF knowingly lets more guns get trafficked to follow them and investigate (and lose track of) than any rogue FFL ever trafficked.

 

[jkelly1229]

Well the dealers get hemmed up over a straw purchase no?

 

[Palladin]

Biden administration eliminating ‘gun-show loophole,’ expanding gun background checks

The Justice Department announced Thursday it has submitted a final rule to the federal register that would close the so-called “gun show loophole,” a significant step in the Biden administration’s efforts to curb gun violence and better regulate gun sales. The rule, which was first proposed last...

www.yahoo.com

 

[CrackPot]

Well the dealers get hemmed up over a straw purchase no?

Dealer's cant commit a straw purchase. The straw purchase is a crime by the purchaser and easily committed without the FFL being aware. Unless the FFL opens their mouth and says "I knew it was a straw purchase", there is no practical blow back on a FFL. Present ID, fill out form saying its for you and you are not giving/selling to someone who can't possess, etc. The FFL is in the clear.

 

[CrackPot]

Biden administration eliminating ‘gun-show loophole,’ expanding gun background checks

The Justice Department announced Thursday it has submitted a final rule to the federal register that would close the so-called “gun show loophole,” a significant step in the Biden administration’s efforts to curb gun violence and better regulate gun sales. The rule, which was first proposed last...

www.yahoo.com

sell your used guns for a profit, you will need a FFL. Welcome to Biden's Amerika

 

[GL2020]

Well the dealers get hemmed up over a straw purchase no?

How would they have any way to know?

Says on the 4473 “is this gun for you?”
How can they hold an FFL responsible when someone lies?

 

[LakeTrout]

What does this “rule” actually change?

 

[walter62]

The law and its interpretation is whatever it needs to be at the moment.

 

[EJFudd]

Biden administration eliminating ‘gun-show loophole,’ expanding gun background checks

The Justice Department announced Thursday it has submitted a final rule to the federal register that would close the so-called “gun show loophole,” a significant step in the Biden administration’s efforts to curb gun violence and better regulate gun sales. The rule, which was first proposed last...

www.yahoo.com

Oh good! Does this mean I can now get an 01 FFL license without a commercially-zoned shop?

 

[CrackPot]

Oh good! Does this mean I can now get an 01 FFL license without a commercially-zoned shop?

You always could. What you cannot get is a MA Dealer's license. Without the dealer's license you are not exempt from the AWB and you are limited to neutered magazines. So getting an 01 to sell out of state without a MA Dealer's license is of questionable use. Who wants 10rd mags in the G17? Who wants their 16" barreled AR with a pinned and welded brake? No one in a free state...

07s out of your house exist. There is one in my town. There is one well known member on this forum with one. Doable.

 

[jkelly1229]

Dealer's cant commit a straw purchase. The straw purchase is a crime by the purchaser and easily committed without the FFL being aware. Unless the FFL opens their mouth and says "I knew it was a straw purchase", there is no practical blow back on a FFL. Present ID, fill out form saying its for you and you are not giving/selling to someone who can't possess, etc. The FFL is in the clear.

I thought they got in trouble a lot if it was obvious

Wasnt there a shop in indianna where a guy bought like 125 yeet cannons and got popped. But the shop got shut down too

Obv you need 125 yeet cannons lol...but still

 

[EJFudd]

You always could. What you cannot get is a MA Dealer's license.

I guess I'm doing a little "wishful thinking" here based on our Massachusetts overlords maybe wanting to support the Feds in their quest to close that nasty "gunshow loophole" right here in MA. It doesn't work if all that our MA "gunshow loopholers" can get is a Federal FFL.

So will MA cooperate and drop the requirement for a commercial and/or industrial-zoned shop? Wouldn't that be nice! Back to the days of kitchen table FFLs. I miss those days.

 

[Kevin_NH]

What does this “rule” actually change?

The actual rule changes very little.

If you're buying an identical new GLOCK 23 every few weeks and selling it along for more than you paid (aka “to predominantly earn a profit"), you are “Engaged in the Business” and need to get a FFL.

 

[CrackPot]

I thought they got in trouble a lot if it was obvious

Wasnt there a shop in indianna where a guy bought like 125 yeet cannons and got popped. But the shop got shut down too

Obv you need 125 yeet cannons lol...but still

Certain behavior should set off alarm bells. 125 of the same gun is likely selling to someone who plans to sell without a license and/or is committing a straw purchase. The interesting piece of that is that they had to file a multi-handgun form with the ATF and local law enforcement. Its not like there was not immediate notification of authorities of the sale. Maybe the customer REALLY liked yeet cannons?

I suspect they did an audit on the spot and found other issues to cause the shutdown. If he followed all the rules, the 4473 was correct, he filed the multi-handgun for, he would not be in trouble just for that sale. Something else was going on for sure.

 

[EJFudd]

The actual rule changes very little.

If you're buying an identical new GLOCK 23 every few weeks and selling it along for more than you paid (aka “to predominantly earn a profit"), you are “Engaged in the Business” and need to get a FFL.

Well, maybe you trust Big Brother more than I do. I'm hideously old and someday I'll want to start selling off my collection. What if Big Brother decides that I am "engaged in the business" at that point? Don't think that could happen??? I'll bet it could under this new BS rule.

I'd sure like the protection of an 01 FFL together with a MA dealer's license. How sweet that would be!

 

[cockpitbob]

They're still going to spend resources on FFLs because they cooperate and don't shoot back. It's low risk and can still be called "working".

 

[not new guy]

What will be interesting is seeing whether and how MA reacts to it given the EFA10 system.

 

[allen-1]

Biden administration eliminating ‘gun-show loophole,’ expanding gun background checks

The Justice Department announced Thursday it has submitted a final rule to the federal register that would close the so-called “gun show loophole,” a significant step in the Biden administration’s efforts to curb gun violence and better regulate gun sales. The rule, which was first proposed last...

www.yahoo.com

I wonder if Biden, (and his DOJ), could anything to keep guns out of the hands of crack users? Perhaps also do something to keep their girlfriends from stealing their guns and dumping them in trash cans where any kid could find them?

But that's probably like wondering why nobody can figure out who left cocaine in one of the most secure buildings in America. Gosh, I wonder what I could do to help these incompetent a**h***s.

 

[Kevin_NH]

Well, maybe you trust Big Brother more than I do. I'm hideously old and someday I'll want to start selling off my collection. What if Big Brother decides that I am "engaged in the business" at that point? Don't think that could happen??? I'll bet it could under this new BS rule.
I'd sure like the protection of an 01 FFL together with a MA dealer's license. How sweet that would be!

I didn't trust them before, I just don't see this rulemaking as being the end of the world, it doesn't override FOPA, specifically 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(C).

I'm no fan of the fine-tuning of the definitions around "personal collection" though "the final rule expressly recognizes ... that persons may liquidate all or part of a personal collection ... without the need to obtain a license"

 

[not new guy]

What they're claiming is different this time is language built into the "Safer Communities Act," which allegedly clarified the definition of a gun dealer.

Be sure to thank these c***s if you ever run into one of them:

Here are the 14 House Republicans who voted for the gun safety bill

A total of 14 GOP lawmakers in the House supported the bill: Reps. Liz Cheney (Wyo.), Fred Upton (Mich.), Mike Turner (Ohio), Steve Chabot (Ohio), Anthony Gonzalez (Ohio), Chris Jacobs (N.Y.), Brian Fitzpatrick (Pa.), Tony Gonzales (Texas), María Elvira Salazar (Fla.), David Joyce (Ohio), John Katko (N.Y.), Adam Kinzinger (Ill.), Peter Meijer (Mich.) and Tom Rice (S.C.).

Of course the f***ing useless NRA gave Cheney an A rating.

 

[ddeck]

What they're claiming is different this time is language built into the "Safer Communities Act," which allegedly clarified the definition of a gun dealer.

Be sure to thank these c***s if you ever run into one of them:

Here are the 14 House Republicans who voted for the gun safety bill



Of course the f***ing useless NRA gave Cheney an A rating.

Brandon Herrera (the AK guy) has forced a runoff with Tony Gonzalez. This was one of the catalysts.

I applaud Brandon for being politically active and not just running his mouth like a typical guntuber.

 

[EJFudd]

I didn't trust them before, I just don't see this rulemaking as being the end of the world, it doesn't override FOPA, specifically 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(C).

I'm no fan of the fine-tuning of the definitions around "personal collection" though "the final rule expressly recognizes ... that persons may liquidate all or part of a personal collection ... without the need to obtain a license"

I take issue with some of the wording which I believe would enable Big Brother to treat an active collector as a dealer (key word here: "active"). Hence my objection to the rule change without Big Brother AND Massachusetts allowing me the right to gain FFL AND MA dealer status without a commercial and/or industrial-zoned shop.

 

[1sern]

Not so sure. This FFL seems to have been a problem:

D.C.’s Metropolitan Police Department Suspected of Being a “Bad Apple” Gun Dealer

....for the dozens of guns recovered at crime scenes that D.C. police helped sell, the time-to-crime was at most 20 months – less than two years.

www.ammoland.com

 

[June4th]

Well, maybe you trust Big Brother more than I do. I'm hideously old and someday I'll want to start selling off my collection. What if Big Brother decides that I am "engaged in the business" at that point? Don't think that could happen??? I'll bet it could under this new BS rule.

I'd sure like the protection of an 01 FFL together with a MA dealer's license. How sweet that would be!

Well, aren't MA non-dealer gun owners are limited to 4 personal transfer per year anyways? And if you transfer via local FFLs instead, or in excess of that limit, how can Big Brother accuse you of 'engaging in the business'?

 

[EJFudd]

Well, aren't MA non-dealer gun owners are limited to 4 personal transfer per year anyways? And if you transfer via local FFLs instead, or in excess of that limit, how can Big Brother accuse you of 'engaging in the business'?

Remember how they refused to put a number of transactions into the definition of "engaged in the business" as a dealer? Guess why?

 

[SkilledSovereignty]

I wouldn't want the liability of an FFL. I had a shop sell me two lowers without recording or inaccurately recording the serial numbers pretty recently.

 

[Archilochus]

Dealer's cant commit a straw purchase. The straw purchase is a crime by the purchaser and easily committed without the FFL being aware. Unless the FFL opens their mouth and says "I knew it was a straw purchase", there is no practical blow back on a FFL. Present ID, fill out form saying its for you and you are not giving/selling to someone who can't possess, etc. The FFL is in the clear.

How would they have any way to know?
Says on the 4473 “is this gun for you?”
How can they hold an FFL responsible when someone lies?

Check out the ongoing "wrongful death" case against ADCO. That's how an FFL gets fu*cked over from a straw purchase. Even if ADCO wins at trial (which they should, but probably won't), they've still been reamed by the costs of the frivolous suit.
.
.

 

[MaverickNH]

"...illegal straw purchases and private sales accounted for 80 percent of all cases. Stolen firearms represented another 25 percent of cases of illegally-trafficked firearms."

It's gotten so bad under Biden, that illegally-traffic guns have risen to105%!

"SAs identified 12,416 firearm traffickers across 80% (7,762 of 9,708) of the cases in the study period. Firearm traffickers tended to be white (53%), male (84%), and U.S. citizens (95%). Approximately 37% had no known criminal activity; about 27% had prior felony convictions, and more than 16% had a prior arrest without a known prohibiting conviction. Other noteworthy characteristics included being a drug user (20%) or known gang member or associate (17%). The most prominent age group was young adults (age 25 to 34) at 39%. Finally, while identified traffickers were predominately male, females identified in the investigations were primarily involved as straw purchasers (72%).

National Firearms Commerce and Trafficking Assessment (NFCTA): Firearms Trafficking Investigations - Volume Three | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

ATF Firearms Trace Data Disclaimer Firearm traces are designed to assist law enforcement authorities in conducting investigations by tracking the sale and possession of specific firearms. Law enforcement agencies may request firearms traces for any investigative reason, and those reasons are not...

www.atf.gov

It's apparently not "noteworthy" to report that the 45.4% Black Firearms Traffickers over-represent that population by 3.3-fold.

 

[Asaltweapon]

"...illegal straw purchases and private sales accounted for 80 percent of all cases. Stolen firearms represented another 25 percent of cases of illegally-trafficked firearms."

It's gotten so bad under Biden, that illegally-traffic guns have risen to105%!

"SAs identified 12,416 firearm traffickers across 80% (7,762 of 9,708) of the cases in the study period. Firearm traffickers tended to be white (53%), male (84%), and U.S. citizens (95%). Approximately 37% had no known criminal activity; about 27% had prior felony convictions, and more than 16% had a prior arrest without a known prohibiting conviction. Other noteworthy characteristics included being a drug user (20%) or known gang member or associate (17%). The most prominent age group was young adults (age 25 to 34) at 39%. Finally, while identified traffickers were predominately male, females identified in the investigations were primarily involved as straw purchasers (72%).

National Firearms Commerce and Trafficking Assessment (NFCTA): Firearms Trafficking Investigations - Volume Three | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

ATF Firearms Trace Data Disclaimer Firearm traces are designed to assist law enforcement authorities in conducting investigations by tracking the sale and possession of specific firearms. Law enforcement agencies may request firearms traces for any investigative reason, and those reasons are not...

www.atf.gov

It's apparently not "noteworthy" to report that the 45.4% Black Firearms Traffickers over-represent that population by 3.3-fold.


View attachment 872505

You racist pig thinking that.

 

[pinefd]

Well, maybe you trust Big Brother more than I do. I'm hideously old and someday I'll want to start selling off my collection. What if Big Brother decides that I am "engaged in the business" at that point? Don't think that could happen??? I'll bet it could under this new BS rule.

I'd sure like the protection of an 01 FFL together with a MA dealer's license. How sweet that would be!

This may (or may not) help in clarifying your situation with regard to someday wanting to sell off your collection (quoted from the bottom of page 5 of this document: https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regul...ion-engaged-business-dealer-firearms/download):

"At the same time, the final rule expressly recognizes that individuals who purchase firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or a legitimate hobby are permitted by the GCA to occasionally buy and sell firearms for those purposes, or occasionally resell to a licensee or to a family member for lawful purposes, without the need to obtain a license. It also makes clear that persons may liquidate all or part of a personal collection, liquidate firearms that are inherited, or liquidate pursuant to a court order, without the need to obtain a license. Evidence of these activities may also be used to rebut the presumptions discussed above in a civil or administrative proceeding. Relatedly, the rule finalizes the proposed definition of the term “personal collection” (or “personal collection of firearms” or “personal firearms collection”) to reflect common definitions of the terms “collection” and “hobby.” While firearms accumulated primarily for personal protection are not included in the definition of “personal collection,” the final rule makes clear that nothing in this rule shall be construed as precluding a person from lawfully acquiring a firearm for self-protection or other lawful personal use."


Frank