Manual safety or not? 365X

weekendracer said:
Most people have never trained to the level of stress that's involved with actually drawing a firearm. More than once in my career, the event started, I looked down and my pistol was in my hand, no recollection of drawing it. That's the level of stress you encounter. Some guns, like 1911's, have a very natural safety deactivation, most don't. Are you going to manipulate the safety under that level of stress?
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If you are going to carry a gun with a safety, you have to train with it to the point where manipulating the safety is something you do without thinking. Back when I carried and competed with a 1911, I was trained to lower the safety on the draw. So by the time my gun was up and on target the safety was off without my ever thinking about it. Holstering was a far more deliberate affair -- bring the gun back to my chest, verify safety on, then holster. I understand that for LEOs that they may need to holster more quickly in order to go hands-on, but that's a pretty unlikely scenario for those of us not in law enforcement.

I agree with you that most guns that have safeties do not have a safety that is as easy to use as a good extended 1911 safety (the original, milspec 1911 safety is too small to easily keep your thumb on it while shooting).
 
M1911 said:
Agreed. I see so many people speed reholstering.

Sadly, no. Apparently a number of P320s have fired while in the holster, not just by being dropped.
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"Allegedly" fired in the holster. Just because someone says that's what happened doesn't make it so. I've seen tons of crappy holsters, I've seen shirt tails stuck in holsters, I've seen fingers on triggers while holstering.

If it fired completely on it's own, that should be repeatable, since there is a design flaw/malfunction/breakage. Maybe some manipulation, but you should be able to set it up where it goes bang every time in that condition. Has this been done? I don't own one of these guns, so I don't follow it.
 
M1911 said:
If you are going to carry a gun with a safety, you have to train with it to the point where manipulating the safety is something you do without thinking. Back when I carried and competed with a 1911, I was trained to lower the safety on the draw. So by the time my gun was up and on target the safety was off without my ever thinking about it. Holstering was a far more deliberate affair -- bring the gun back to my chest, verify safety on, then holster. I understand that for LEOs that they may need to holster more quickly in order to go hands-on, but that's a pretty unlikely scenario for those of us not in law enforcement.

I agree with you that most guns that have safeties do not have a safety that is as easy to use as a good extended 1911 safety (the original, milspec 1911 safety is too small to easily keep your thumb on it while shooting).
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That's why I specifically mentioned the 1911. That's a solid system that's naturally functional on the draw. I can't honestly say much since I have little experience with pistols with safeties. Even the few I have shot, I generally ignored the safety (on the range).
 
weekendracer said:
"Allegedly" fired in the holster. Just because someone says that's what happened doesn't make it so. I've seen tons of crappy holsters, I've seen shirt tails stuck in holsters, I've seen fingers on triggers while holstering.
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Yeah, it is alleged. But at least one has been captured on video.
weekendracer said:
If it fired completely on it's own, that should be repeatable, since there is a design flaw/malfunction/breakage. Maybe some manipulation, but you should be able to set it up where it goes bang every time in that condition. Has this been done? I don't own one of these guns, so I don't follow it.
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I don't think it is a simple, repeatable issue. I suspect it is a tolerance stacking thing. So it happens rarely but only on some guns.

I don't own a 320 either, partly due to these issues. i think in many ways I might prefer a 320 over my Glocks (reportedly the trigger is better and the grip angle is closer to that of a 1911). But at the moment I just don't trust them. Maybe I'm being a nervous nelly believing internet nonsense...
 
M1911 said:
Yeah, it is alleged. But at least one has been captured on video.

I don't think it is a simple, repeatable issue. I suspect it is a tolerance stacking thing. So it happens rarely but only on some guns.

I don't own a 320 either, partly due to these issues. i think in many ways I might prefer a 320 over my Glocks (reportedly the trigger is better and the grip angle is closer to that of a 1911). But at the moment I just don't trust them. Maybe I'm being a nervous nelly believing internet nonsense...
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No, SIG reliability has definitely been questionable since they started using consumers to beta test. I’m cautiously optimistic they worked out issues, and I’d trust a 365 at this point, but your concerns are warranted
 
M1911 said:
Yeah, it is alleged. But at least one has been captured on video.

I don't think it is a simple, repeatable issue. I suspect it is a tolerance stacking thing. So it happens rarely but only on some guns.

I don't own a 320 either, partly due to these issues. i think in many ways I might prefer a 320 over my Glocks (reportedly the trigger is better and the grip angle is closer to that of a 1911). But at the moment I just don't trust them. Maybe I'm being a nervous nelly believing internet nonsense...
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I'd like to see the video, honestly, would be interesting to watch.

But you understand my 'repeatability' statement. If it's the tolerance of the sear, the condition of the hammer/striker, even the tilt (like the gymnastics of putting a MK III together) of the gun that stacks to a failure, it should be repeatable. I just hear mainly about some cop somewhere putting a hole in his leg, which is 'questionable' at best. I know for a fact that the Glock 47 had to be repeatably dropped and the angle measured at impact with the ground, not the angle of the drop. So, the 320 debacle influenced how other guns were tested, which is a good thing. More better testing leads to more better guns.

For the record, I have a 229 and a couple BP 'specials' in 250 that I still wonder why I bought. We never carried the gun in any capacity. I did think it was a neat gun concept, and I did get sequential serial numbers on the pair. Still NIB, never fired, legit.
 
weekendracer said:
I'd like to see the video, honestly, would be interesting to watch.
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Here you go. The angle is obscured, but it doesn't appear that the officer was messing around with the gun -- it remained holstered. SIG says that the gun wasn't not fully seated in the holster. I think SIG's statement is not necessarily correct -- the fact that the Safariland holster's hood wasn't engaged doesn't mean that the gun wasn't fully seated.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSAI_HUZDI0
 
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M1911 said:
Here you go. The angle is obscured, but it doesn't appear that the officer was messing around with the gun -- it remained holstered.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSAI_HUZDI0
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I don't have sound, and this is threatening some significant thread drift at this point. But the guy bending over is the one who's gun went off? Lots of things shift bending over with a gun belt on. I'll grant, it's suspicious, but I'm not 100% convinced there isn't 'something' else going on.
 
M1911 said:
Here you go. The angle is obscured, but it doesn't appear that the officer was messing around with the gun -- it remained holstered.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSAI_HUZDI0
Click to expand...

The sig p320 had 2 reported issues. The first was the drop test from around 4 years ago, which plenty of videos repeated in tests and sig supposedly fixed. The other issue was reports of it going off while in a holster. One woman had it in a holster in her gym bag, and a few cop videos of them getting out of cars and the guns going off, and this video. I think sig responded that the holsters created for the p320 with a weapons light were setting it off. I don’t know what came of that claim or if any or all of the people who reported it had weapons lights and certain holsters.
 
weekendracer said:
I don't have sound, and this is threatening some significant thread drift at this point. But the guy bending over is the one who's gun went off? Lots of things shift bending over with a gun belt on. I'll grant, it's suspicious, but I'm not 100% convinced there isn't 'something' else going on.
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Yes, the guy bending over is the one who's gun discharged. It's a Safarliland holster. The gun shouldn't go off in the holster if you bend over or if you knock the gun into something.

I've seen at least one more video of a P320 going off, IIRC it was in the sally port area of a police station or jail, while they were bringing a prisoner in. I can't find that video at the moment.

I know that I lot of folks (people in general as well as cops) do stupid things with their guns. But there are enough claims about SIGs going off in the holsters that it makes me concerned.
 
TJ4 said:
The sig p320 had 2 reported issues. The first was the drop test from around 4 years ago, which plenty of videos repeated in tests and sig supposedly fixed. The other issue was reports of it going off while in a holster. One woman had it in a holster in her gym bag, and a few cop videos of them getting out of cars and the guns going off, and this video. I think sig responded that the holsters created for the p320 with a weapons light were setting it off. I don’t know what came of that claim or if any or all of the people who reported it had weapons lights and certain holsters.
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Weapon lights do add complications. They are wider than the trigger guard, so you end up with a holster opening that is wider and can allow other things to get into the holster. I'm not saying that they are unsafe, just that it adds complications.
 
It seems the majority of the pro-ish safety replies stem from the same source as myself. Except for .22's, the bulk of my shooting/carrying has been with 1911's carried in condition 1. After a while it becomes habit to flip the safety off while drawing. Then again the beauty of it is it still won't accidentally fire without depressing the grip safety as a secondary until you have a firm grasp. In any event, whether the gun has a safety or not, use it or simply don't use it I suppose if one way or the other is a concern.
 
I prefer having a manual safety, its what I started with. They arent needed if you do your part. I do like the idea of someone other than me needing to fumble about.
 
I love carrying my P938 as I can swoosh the safety off as I draw the pistol - it’s very natural and intuitive. That said, I bought my P365XL without the safety as it seemed anemic compared to the safety on my 938. Just couldn’t seem to find it/feel it when I had too. Any modern holster, be it kydex or leather, will completely cover the trigger assembly when holstered which mitigates an NG/AG.
 
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FrankNA said:
I love carrying my P938 as I can swoosh the safety off as I draw the pistol - it’s very natural and intuitive. That said, I bought my P365XL without the safety as it seemed anemic compared to the safety on my 938. Just couldn’t seem to find it/feel it when I had too. Any modern holster, be it kydex or leather, will completely cover the trigger assemble when holstered which mitigates an NG/AG.
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Armory craft makes an extended safety lever. Just got one and it works great, totally changes the gun.
 
Darkslide said:
Armory craft makes an extended safety lever. Just got one and it works great, totally changes the gun.
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Thanks for that info. May have gone that route at the time but I'm not sure if that was available when I purchased my 365XL. That definitely would be a game changer as far as having a manual safety, which I've never had a problem with as long as I could get a good purchase on it when drawing. I could not do that with the original 365 thumb safety.
 
IMG_2923.jpeg
This is what it looks like, just big enough to easily disengage it on the draw. My shooting times are the same as without a safety, makes absolutely no difference. If I didn’t have a manual safety, I would go with the Tyrant Intellifire trigger. It’s a sig after all, who knows when it’ll go off. I can’t risk shooting off my dick when holstering, especially when I’m using a light bearing holster with an oversized trigger guard.
 
LLF said:
The safety on 365s is very easy to manipulate. I have both safety and non-safety models. If you're concerned about releasing the safety in an emergency a little practice at the range is all you need. It would be much better to get proficient with the safety and carry the pistol with a round in the chamber than to have to chamber a round in an emergency situation.
Personally I don't like striker fire guns. My daily carry gun is a CZ 75 Compact with a decocker. I carry that gun with a round in the chamber and the hammer decocked.
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This is the problem. People who think that "a little practice at the range is all you need". This is ignorance speaking as it takes much more for it to become truly instinctive 100% of the time.

If you have a gun with a manual safety, you need to practice drawing and sweeping the safety off until it is 100% instinct.

I used to compete regularly with both a 1911 and a Glock. And about once per year, I would draw the 1911 and forget to sweep the safety off under the pressure of competition. (I also occasionally will sweep the nonexistent safety off my Glock) It takes me roughly 2 seconds to recognize what is happening, swipe the safety off and fire.

Because of this failure, I won't carry a gun with a manual safety. Even though I practice with a manual safety PROPERLY, I still screw up about once per year because I also shoot striker fired guns without a manual safety.

To make things worse, I probably only see 1 in 10 people who carry manual safety guns practicing correctly.

Most get to the range, take their gun out of the holster, take the safety off. Clear it. Load a mag with practice ammo and shoot. Then they shoot 100 rounds, reload with their carry ammo, put the safety back on and leave.

In their entire range session, they drew from a holster (or came up from low ready if your club prohibits holster draw) and swiped off the safety exactly once. (!!!!) They swiped the safety on when they came off target exactly zero times.

They should have been practicing swiping the safety off EVERY TIME they came up on target. But instead, they were lazy and just left the safety off. Those people are completely UNPREPARED to use a manual safety gun in a defensive situation.

So unless you shoot only guns with manual safeties and can regularly practice properly, most are better served by a gun without a manual safety.

But what do I know. I'm too dumb to remember what gun I'm carrying.
 
Darkslide said:
If using a light, I would prefer a manual safety because lightbearing holsters have a gap where trigger is, where clothing can get snagged when you holster the gun.
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See above.

This adds a simple training step. Something you should be doing anyway.
1) Take a deep breath. There is never any reason to holster quickly. You shouldn't be holstering unless the threat is gone anyway.
2) Look down at the holster.
3) Clear your cover garments with your support hand and SLOOOWWWWLLYYY reholster being careful not to sweep your body or your support hand.
4) Practice until it's instinctive. Note - this can be done in the comfort of your own home. No need to even shoot the gun to practice this.

A few years ago a friend of mine asked me to give the NRA Basic Pistol class to his 18 year old.
He was a good student who came to the class already with good trigger finger discipline, sight skills and trigger skills.

He did a great job. At the end of class we talked about the fact that he was into airsoft.
He mentioned that he had his whole airsoft handgun belt in his car. I told him I was curious. So he went and got it.

He told me that he practiced a lot just in the living room while he was watching TV. He then proceeded to demonstrate a faster cleaner draw than I am capable of. He then demonstrated a faster, cleaner reload than I am capable of.

It was all done in a fast, safe, fluid and repeatable way. I was astonished. He gained all this proficiency having never actually fired a gun, from the comfort of his own home, using an airlift gun.
 
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dcmdon said:
See above.

This adds a simple training step. Something you should be doing anyway.
1) Take a deep breath. There is never any reason to holster quickly. You shouldn't be holstering unless the threat is gone anyway.
2) Look down at the holster.
3) Clear your cover garments with your support hand and SLOOOWWWWLLYYY reholster being careful not to sweep your body or your support hand.
4) Practice until it's instinctive. Note - this can be done in the comfort of your own home. No need to even shoot the gun to practice this.

A few years ago a friend of mine asked me to give the NRA Basic Pistol class to his 18 year old.
He was a good student who came to the class already with good trigger finger discipline, sight skills and trigger skills.

He did a great job. At the end of class we talked about the fact that he was into airsoft.
He mentioned that he had his whole airsoft handgun belt in his car. I told him I was curious. So he went and got it.

He told me that he practiced a lot just in the living room while he was watching TV. He then proceeded to demonstrate a faster cleaner draw than I am capable of. He then demonstrated a faster, cleaner reload than I am capable of.

It was all done in a fast, safe, fluid and repeatable way. I was astonished. He gained all this proficiency having never actually fired a gun, from the comfort of his own home, using an airlift gun.
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Yes to every single thing you said except for looking into your holster, which satisfies insurance companies, but is detrimental to gun fighting.
 
dcmdon said:
To make things worse, I probably only see 1 in 10 people who carry manual safety guns practicing correctly.

Most get to the range, take their gun out of the holster, take the safety off. Clear it. Load a mag with practice ammo and shoot. Then they shoot 100 rounds, reload with their carry ammo, put the safety back on and leave. .
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This is so true, and also applies to the DA/SA shooters. Whenever I shoot my DA pistols I always decock for my first shot so it's DA.
 

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