Worcester Police chief wants gun range license suspended

8thring

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nazi ???

I was wondering how long it would take you[smile]
your fogetting the nazis wre smart; they almost owned the world by stealing and laundering europe's gold reserves to finance the war. this guy cannot even control a pisspot like worcester. [crying]
 

jcr

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Nice try but no cigar,

Do you know that to be a fact and are you aware that sworn police officers in Massachusetts may "carry on the badge" and are not required by statute to have a LTC?(even though many departments require it...not a state law).

Of course even it Gemme doesn't require his officers to be licensed, the point would still be moot because the officers were acting in their capacity as LEOS and would be carrying "on the badge"
Yeah, I knew all along that this wouldn't work. I threw it out mostly as a place for a judge to "hang his hat on" if he felt that Gemme was being a jerk from begining to end. Kind of like some liberal judges find whacky theories to hang their hat on to free some alleged criminals when the judges don't like the obvious outcome.

But your response suggests an interesting scenario that would put the range employee in an uncomfortable position:

Off duty policeman, in uniform on his way home after his shift, stops at the range because he wants to rent/try a gun he heard someone talking about. Employee asks for a show of FID/LTC and officer says this is my badge, let me rent the gun. Employee says, no can do.

And worries about the next time he drives past the officer in his patrol car.
 

KMaurer

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So I guess some here would let convicted child molesters become teachers after they get out of jail....[thinking]
I certainly would. When was the last time you ever heard of a dead man molesting a kid, or teaching school for that matter? More to the point, why is it that you want to let convicted child molesters (who have recidivism rates close to 100%) free to walk the streets and prey on more kids? Given my druthers, they'd get out of prison in a box.

Ken
 
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What is wrong with someone renting a gun to see what they want when they get their license? Or who just wants to try it and see if they want to go through the asspain of getting a license? It sure would suck to spend $75 on a class and another $100 for the license, to realize that you just don't like shooting (I'm sure some people don't, I hate golf, but you don't see me trying to ban a driving range, although they are a waste of a perfectly good rifle range).
That is exactly what I did at that range a few weeks ago! I thought I had and interest in shooting. I figured why not give it a try before I go jump through the hoops to get my LTC. I don't know anyone in Mass. that has a LTC so I hit the web and found Boston Gun Range. I drove down there, rented a Ruger Mk II and gave it a try. The person showed me how to use the gun and gave me the standard safety instructions: finger off the trigger until ready to shoot, keep gun pointing downrange, if it jams raise your hand and the range officer will clear it for you. He even specifically mentioned not taking any souvenirs (cartridges or casings) as it was a $5k fine. You know what I LOVED IT. I signed up for a course in May and I'll apply for my LTC. If there wasn't a place like this I'm not sure I would had have had a chance to try it and find out.
 
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If there wasn't a place like this I'm not sure I would had have had a chance to try it and find out.
Somewhat unrelated but that's exactly what we do in our Basic Pistol Course at the end. All students have the opportunity to try out over thirty handguns ranging from a 22lr up to a 45ACP as part of the course.
 
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More to the point, why is it that you want to let convicted child molesters (who have recidivism rates close to 100%) free to walk the streets and prey on more kids? Given my druthers, they'd get out of prison in a box.

Ken

Where have I ever said that I would let them out??????

Let them rot in hell!!!!!!!!!!
 
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You know what I LOVED IT. I signed up for a course in May and I'll apply for my LTC. If there wasn't a place like this I'm not sure I would had have had a chance to try it and find out.

Ya man, that's something they know as well. They don't want you to enjoy it. They don't want the citizens of MA to be gun owners. That's what this is all about.
 
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Are there any other ranges (outdoor, private, whatever) in the area that this ordinance covers? If so, are thay also targetted or is this directed at only Mark's range? If they are subject to this ordinance, are members now prohibited from allowing family member and guests to use their firearms at these ranges? I certainly hope that this doesn't grow to a Statewide statute. Would spell the end of lots of range memberships.
Or maybe it would spur on a bunch of new memberships.
 
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I certainly would. When was the last time you ever heard of a dead man molesting a kid, or teaching school for that matter? More to the point, why is it that you want to let convicted child molesters (who have recidivism rates close to 100%) free to walk the streets and prey on more kids? Given my druthers, they'd get out of prison in a box.

Ken
Marshall and Barbaree (1990) says upto 40%. Many reports compute figures lower than 100%.

bill
 
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I disagree. Felons should have their rights restored upon release from prison and at the end of any probabtion period. IMO once someone has paid their debt to society they should have the same rights as any other private citizen.

So...I ask you, do you believe this of ALL felonies? You believe that someone who has been convicted and served their time for rape of a child should have their rights restored. They should be allowed to work with children once they paid their debt to society?[thinking]
 

KMaurer

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Where have I ever said that I would let them out??????

Let them rot in hell!!!!!!!!!!
If you don't want to let them out, then why argue for restrictions on their employment or residence after they're let out? I'll continue to focus my attention where I think it's most important, i.e., never letting them see the light of day except through bars.

Ken
 
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Want to have some fun? Post some anti-Gemme statement in the Comments section and watch it get deleted.

Chief Gemme, who was away at a police conference in Florida, said in a telephone interview yesterday afternoon that the notion he is out to get Boston Gun Range is a “worn-out legal tactic.”
http://www.telegram.com/article/20080425/NEWS/804250617/1101

Gun range endures legal wrangling

License Commission puts decision on hold

By Thomas Caywood TELEGRAM & GAZETTE STAFF


WORCESTER— A city gun range that Police Chief Gary J. Gemme wants to shut down for allegedly allowing some patrons to target shoot without a firearm license will remain open for now, after the city License Commission put off any decision on the chief’s request for at least two weeks.

A lawyer for the Boston Gun Range challenged the basis of the proposed license suspension at a hearing yesterday, arguing that under state law, a person may handle and shoot a firearm at a gun range if he or she is with someone who has a valid Firearm Identification Card.

The lawyer, James P. Ehrhard of Worcester, also argued that the undercover police officers who rented guns, and bought and fired ammunition at the Route 20 range while posing as civilians without FID cards in a sting operation late last month, are licensed to carry firearms by virtue of being sworn police officers.


“We may not have seen the licenses, but the ordinance doesn’t say we have to,” Mr. Ehrhard said. He later added, “There’s been no violation. Four licensed police officers fired guns.”

After a back-and-forth legal debate between Mr. Ehrhard and Capt. John J. Ryder, head of the Police Department’s Licensing Division, over city and state laws governing firearms, the License Commission voted to put off its decision on the suspension request until at least its next meeting, May 8.

“This is a very complex issue. There’s been a lot thrown at us. I need to absorb this a little bit more,” said Chairman Kevin O’Sullivan.

Commissioners Peter Lukes and Karon Shea agreed.

“It’s confusing to me,” said Ms. Shea of the flurry of legal arguments and counterarguments advanced by Mr. Ehrhard and the three police officers who testified at the hearing. “I’m really at a loss as to the right direction.”

Chief Gemme has asked the License Commission to suspend Boston Gun Range’s city license to operate what city law classifies as a “shooting gallery.”

Mr. Ehrhard told the commissioners that while he didn’t want to see that happen, such an action would not shut down Boston Gun Range. He argued that the business could continue to operate as a gun range under state laws.

The business holds other licenses — to rent firearms, sell ammunition and to operate as a gunsmith — issued directly by the Police Department, not the License Commission.

Those licenses have been suspended by the chief, but the suspensions aren’t being enforced while Boston Gun Range challenges them in Worcester Superior Court.

Those suspensions stemmed from an investigation into a suicide in October 2006 at the 317 Southwest Cutoff range.

In another incident in February, a handgun fired by a customer at the range malfunctioned and exploded in his hand, inflicting a minor injury. Police investigated the accident and found that of the four men who were shooting in the injured man’s group, only two had firearms licenses.

Police said that’s a violation of a city ordinance. The range maintains it’s allowed under state law.

Mr. Ehrhard, sitting beside range owner Mark Tashjian, said during yesterday’s hearing that Chief Gemme has seemed bent on closing the range ever since the suicide.

“I understand the chief doesn’t like the Boston Gun Range, but he’s not the Legislature. He’s not the City Council. He’s not even the License Commission,” Mr. Ehrhard said in one of several comments seeming to question the chief’s motivation in seeking the license suspension.

Chief Gemme, who was away at a police conference in Florida, said in a telephone interview yesterday afternoon that the notion he is out to get Boston Gun Range is a “worn-out legal tactic.”

“I don’t have any personal issues with them. My issue is public safety,” he said. “When you look at known gang members and violent offenders using that range to develop expertise, and when you look at injuries to a suicide, not their first suicide, it’s my obligation to make sure we investigate that.”

Mr. O’Sullivan, the commission chairman, said during the hearing that he hadn’t spoken to Chief Gemme about the Boston Gun Range, but the police allegations represent a licensing matter worthy of the commission’s attention.

“It’s a serious issue,” he said.
 
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So...I ask you, do you believe this of ALL felonies? You believe that someone who has been convicted and served their time for rape of a child should have their rights restored. They should be allowed to work with children once they paid their debt to society?[thinking]
No, I believe there's an exception to every rule. I thinkcertain classes of crimes should be treated differently. I don't think all felonies should be lumped together and all felons should be stripped of their rights upon release. IMO, murder and rape especially of children would mean life in prison with no parole and no exceptions. Of course in MA, we love to give second, thrid, fourth, hell even fifth chances to our beloved diddlers. I do think it absurd, however that we treat someone convicted of securities or wire fraud the exact same as a murderer in terms of their gun rights after their prison terms. Raping children creates a debt to society far too big to ever really be repaid...
 

jcr

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The lawyer, James P. Ehrhard of Worcester, also argued that the undercover police officers who rented guns, and bought and fired ammunition at the Route 20 range while posing as civilians without FID cards in a sting operation late last month, are licensed to carry firearms by virtue of being sworn police officers.

“We may not have seen the licenses, but the ordinance doesn’t say we have to,” Mr. Ehrhard said. He later added, “There’s been no violation. Four licensed police officers fired guns.”

Mr. Ehrhard should have asked our Mark056. He would have told him, "Nice try but no cigar," the reply I got when I posted:


Why can't the range use the defense that the undercover vice detectives did have licenses?
[smile]
 

jcr

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Chief Gemme said:
and when you look at injuries to a suicide, not their first suicide, it’s my obligation to make sure we investigate that.
The Chief had better say an extra prayer that none of his officers does the deed with a PD issued pistol. To be consistent, he'd have to disarm the force.
 
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Mr. Ehrhard should have asked our Mark056. He would have told him, "Nice try but no cigar," the reply I got when I posted:
[smile]
The exact same thought crossed my mind when I read the article.

No, I am not surprised that Mr. Ehrhard would use this as a defense, I am a bit surprised that it was taken seriously. It is similar to arguments (from what I understand), that are frequently used (without a lot of success) where "entrapment" is alleged by the defense especially with regard to sting operations. I think it is important to understand too, that Mr. Ehrhard was not presenting his arguments in court but before a group of befuddled (if they were quoted accurately) bureaucrats. [smile]

Mark L.
 
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Rob Boudrie

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I am a bit surprised that it was taken seriously
Just because the court courteously listens to an argument from a member of the bar does not mean it was taken seriously. This defense ranks right up there with "The officer my client met for an agreed upon sexual rendevous was not a 14 year old, but a 34 year old, therefore, no crime was committed".

It might more productive to argue that restrictions beyond the state requirement for a license holder to be present require "home rule approval" from the legislature, and to also point out that the state has accepted courses that require a non-licensed person to fire as qualifying for the LTC training certification requirement.
 
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It pisses me off when people use the term entrapment, for when cops do their job and catch people breaking rules, regulations, orders, laws etc. etc... Simple fact, they agreed to an ordinance, they violated that ordinance, now suffer the consequences....
The statement that felons that have paid their dues to society, restore their wright's, bulls**t lets see if you would want them restored after they have raped your wife or your family member.... Besides the fact, the UC was left un-attended on the range with a firearm and live ammunition without a license physically on his person....
 
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The statement that felons that have paid their dues to society, restore their wright's, bulls**t lets see if you would want them restored after they have raped your wife or your family member.... ....[/QUOTE]


The restoration of their "wrights" has nothing to do with their ability nor their inclination to rape, kill, etc. , unless you buy into the argument that having an intangible item (ie a right) or an inanimate object (ie a gun) suddenly makes them into a murderer or rapist.
I have no sympathy nor quarter for cold-blooded murderers or rapists, however I still hold that the vast majority of felons have indeed served their debt and should get , not a spotlessly clean record, but at least have a chance of starting over, including their ability to protect themselves.
 
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The statement that felons that have paid their dues to society, restore their wright's, bulls**t lets see if you would want them restored after they have raped your wife or your family member....


The restoration of their "wrights" has nothing to do with their ability nor their inclination to rape, kill, etc. , unless you buy into the argument that having an intangible item (ie a right) or an inanimate object (ie a gun) suddenly makes them into a murderer or rapist.
I have no sympathy nor quarter for cold-blooded murderers or rapists, however I still hold that the vast majority of felons have indeed served their debt and should get , not a spotlessly clean record, but at least have a chance of starting over, including their ability to protect themselves.
Apparently you missed my post where I very clearly in plain English stated that there are exceptions to every rule. I, in no uncertain terms that rapists and murderers cannot repay their debt. They should stay in prison for LIFE. end of story. People who commit lesser crimes and complete their sentence should have their rights restored. We seem to agree on this.
 
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The first part of my post was quoting Drew, I think I accidentally deleted too much of his words.. I think that you and I are in agreement....
 
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http://telegram.com/article/20080508/FRONTPAGENEWS/473921067

Thursday, May 8, 2008
Boston Gun Range license not renewed

Lawyer says range will not shut down

By Scott J. Croteau TELEGRAM & GAZETTE


WORCESTER
— The Boston Gun Range’s license to operate was not renewed by the License Commission today, and city officials will now ask a judge to revoke three police chief-issued licenses that allow the business to rent firearms, sell ammunition, and operate as a gunsmith.

In a 2-1 vote, the commission did not renew Boston Gun Range’s license to operate what city law classifies as a “shooting gallery.”

After the meeting, lawyer James P. Ehrhardcq of Worcester, who represents the range’s owner, Mark Tashjian, said the business will remain open. He had told the commission at an earlier meeting that not renewing the license would not shut down the Route 20 business because it could operate as a gun range under state law.

“They can’t operate in the city of Worcester because they no longer have a license to operate a shooting gallery in the city,” Police Chief Gary J. Gemme said today. “We will monitor the business to determine they are not operating as a shooting gallery and monitor to make sure they are using the licenses I issue appropriately.”

The license to operate expired May 1, but the commission extended the expiration date until today’s hearing.

The Police Department alleged that the Boston Gun Range allowed some patrons to target shoot without a Firearms Identification card or a license to carry firearms.

A police investigation showed the management was not checking people to see whether they had an FID card or license to carry when shooting at the facility.

Mr. Ehrhard again argued today that, under state law, a person may handle and shoot a firearm at a gun range if he or she is with someone who has a valid Firearms Identification card.

See the full story in tomorrow's Telegram & Gazette.


Also, this thread is kind of a duplicate:
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...=35348&highlight=boston+range+worcester+gemme
 
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Gemma

It pisses me off when people use the term entrapment, for when cops do their job and catch people breaking rules, regulations, orders, laws etc. etc... Simple fact, they agreed to an ordinance, they violated that ordinance, now suffer the consequences....
********
It pisses me off when some public official targets a citizen or business because he has a hair across his ass about their legal activities. So if I walked into a car dealer in Worcester and asked to test drive a car, took it around the corner and hooked up a pipe to the exhaust and killed myself is the COP going to suspend that dealers business license? I doubt it? This a**h*** is targeting this range because he is anti-gun.
 

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You get the public officials that you vote in. So, I guess Worcester wants that douche as their chief.
 

pdm

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And since when are police chiefs elected?
They elect the people that hire the police chief. So by virtue of electing anti-gun douchebags, they get an anti-gun douchebag as COP. And where did I say they elected the COP, anyway? You inferred that, but I never said it.
 
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