AHM
NES Member
And it's a value judgement anyhow.
Maybe some people like rust;
some nerve calling it a "stain".
You can tell from the magnets stuck to the side of each pipe.
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What is your "Long Range" Rifle Platform?
- Thread starter Rockrivr1
- Start date
Maybe some people like rust;
some nerve calling it a "stain".
Mesatchornug
NES Member
For the home gamer, many of the 400 series stainless are actually magnetic...
AHM
NES Member
![[thumbsup]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/044.gif "Thumbs Up [thumbsup]")
No contest.
AHM
NES Member
BTW, the proprietors of the former Indian Village/Foods'n'Flavors in Sun Plaza, Nashua
liked it very much when I asked them if the photo on the wall was
of the iron pillar that doesn't rust (the Iron Pillar of Delhi).
I'd never known the actual name,
but Robert Ripley delivers.
(Believe It or Not).
The uneducated comments of "stainless isn't magnetic" is false. Some grades are , some grades are not. I work with a lot of 17-4PH and it's highly magnetic all day long. I also work with 303 and it's completely non-magnetic.
so, i gave it a first real try today. loaded it so far with a 32gr varget to see how it will go. did a 10 rounds per set - 5 sets, to see seatings 0.005" off lands in .005 increments up to 0.020".
speed was stable, barrel now got 200 rounds through it - including fire forming. i am pretty much wasting it on testing.
30gr varget on fire forming gave pretty stable 2770fps. 32gr can be seen below. 5 shots at a 100, then rest 5 shots done at 300.
a surprising thing was with set 4 - the 0.020" off lands - seemingly did quite good at a 100 and es/sd were ok - but at 300 group totally sucked.
if it was me jerking the trigger - may be - i will need to revisit this.
i may try to redo this with 31 and 31.5 varget loads as well, but, not sure if it will actually do a major difference to a barrel life. where it is now it is exactly a 1mrad up for 300yds at this speed.
jammed into lands loads for fireforming were doing very good group at 100, comparable with group 4, actually, almost all into same hole - but at 300 the spread was like 4-5 inches - no miracles there.
Mudflap621
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so, i gave it a first real try today. loaded it so far with a 32gr varget to see how it will go. did a 10 rounds per set - 5 sets, to see seatings 0.005" off lands in .005 increments up to 0.020".
speed was stable, barrel now got 200 rounds through it - including fire forming. i am pretty much wasting it on testing.
30gr varget on fire forming gave pretty stable 2770fps. 32gr can be seen below. 5 shots at a 100, then rest 5 shots done at 300.
a surprising thing was with set 4 - the 0.020" off lands - seemingly did quite good at a 100 and es/sd were ok - but at 300 group totally sucked.
if it was me jerking the trigger - may be - i will need to revisit this.
i may try to redo this with 31 and 31.5 varget loads as well, but, not sure if it will actually do a major difference to a barrel life. where it is now it is exactly a 1mrad up for 300yds at this speed.
jammed into lands loads for fireforming were doing very good group at 100, comparable with group 4, actually, almost all into same hole - but at 300 the spread was like 4-5 inches - no miracles there.
View attachment 622521
Bullet Jump Research
shortactioncustoms.com
Here’s some reading for you. I haven’t personally tried it yet but am going to here shortly. My buddy is having very good luck though testing at .080 off. My testing so far showed a good window between .030-.040 off with the hybrid but stopped at .050. After seeing what my buddy is doing and reading this I’m gonna go farther.
Here is one of his targets shot last week. Dasher running Alliant 15.5. He’s slowly backing down after going up to 3000fps. I think he settled into the 2825 Range for now.
so, i did test it in 0.005-0.025 jumps with 32gr load. as it is where i would expect it to be the best, based on what other folks use.Bullet Jump Research
Here’s some reading for you. I haven’t personally tried it yet but am going to here shortly. My buddy is having very good luck though testing at .080 off. My testing so far showed a good window between .030-.040 off with the hybrid but stopped at .050. After seeing what my buddy is doing and reading this I’m gonna go farther.
Here is one of his targets shot last week. Dasher running Alliant 15.5. He’s slowly backing down after going up to 3000fps. I think he settled into the 2825 Range for now. View attachment 622531
not so sure anymore.
i do not want to do this indefinitely, as barrel has limited life - and to test it like in the article, up to 0.090" jump is a bit stupid, i think. reading more i see some folks settle in the 0.060" jump area, i can try to do that too, and retest my 0.020-0.025 jumps. will see.
it all really shows at 300yds, a 100yds groups is not too definitive,.
Mudflap621
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When I do jump tests I do a large swing 3 shot groups .010 increments than I just run on the shorter side of the node. You should hopefully be able to find something larger than those jumps so it helps conserve the ammo.
It really depends how crazy you wanna get but for what I’m doing if I can stay under 3/8” I’m good. Quickest route there wins.
It really depends how crazy you wanna get but for what I’m doing if I can stay under 3/8” I’m good. Quickest route there wins.
i will try it with a 0.065" jump now, and will do 3 diff loads, will see.
Y’all know that the lands will move as it wears right? So you will need to continually adjust your seating depth relative to where the lands have worn?
Mudflap621
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Not always. Depending on a lot of things if you find a good wide node and start on the short side. Depending on what your trying to do with the gun a lot of guys never chase lands unless something drastic changes.
slipknot
NES Member
Paul
Maybe try slower like 2840-2850
Maybe 31.5
I’m getting 2840-50 with 31.1 Varget in a 26” barrel 105 hybrids
Jump does not seem to matter but your mileage may vary
Maybe try slower like 2840-2850
Maybe 31.5
I’m getting 2840-50 with 31.1 Varget in a 26” barrel 105 hybrids
Jump does not seem to matter but your mileage may vary
i am going to try both 31 and 31.5 in combination with .060 and .065" off lands seating. will see if that will stabilize/improve anything.
0.020" off lands obviously did not prove itself much.
i do not really think a speed drop from 2890 to 2850 would prolong barrels life a lot, though.
still need to find and order a replacement follower for the mag MPA provided - it is pure hot garbage. MDT mag i got works much better, but from time to time a round presses into the chamber wall and needs slight readjustment by hand so the bolt would move forward. does not happen very often, but, i guess it is what dasher is.
slipknot
NES Member
I think it is more barrel harmonics than life
Dasher should be pretty easy and forgiving to develop a load
Dasher should be pretty easy and forgiving to develop a load
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I guess "long range" is relative to where you live. Not too many places to shoot 1000 yards in the NE. I'm looking into a Tikka T3X UPR in 308, my priorities are:
1. Light weight
2. Availability of ammo
3. Above average trigger out of the box
I'm looking into SIG BDX scope and run it with Kestrel 5700 Elite
Should work out to 1000 yards and not break the bank.,
1. Light weight
2. Availability of ammo
3. Above average trigger out of the box
I'm looking into SIG BDX scope and run it with Kestrel 5700 Elite
Should work out to 1000 yards and not break the bank.,
i forgot to add this - i was shooting it with new arken ep5, side by side with bergara on viper pst2 - and arken is, to my taste - better.
at 300yds contrast was better, less haze, the grid lines on the target were visible better. so, so far i am quite happy with it.
at 300yds contrast was better, less haze, the grid lines on the target were visible better. so, so far i am quite happy with it.
Decided to have some fun with my M1a NM loaded
Still working on the load, but she likes 173 military match heads.
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Mudflap621
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The suspense is killing me…
Look at primal rights mag kits for the mag follower. There are a lot of guys running them with great success.
With the MDT mag when it jams up stop and look at its positioning and see if it’s repeatable. At that point you can slightly adjust mag lips to remedy. It’s pretty common to have to tune feed lips to each rifle for best feeding. I’d recommend using a set of calipers and note the measurements before making any adjustments.
I got lucky and my AW mags feed excellent with the HRD mag kit but I did drop a mag directly on the feed lip and had to do some tweaking to get it back to where it should be.
With all the talk of load development, I’m just going to share this here in case anybody isn’t tracking it.
“bryan_litz_ballistics Trying to do serious load development within the first ~200 rounds of a barrel can be a waste of time.
The pressure, velocity, and consistency that you can make with a given powder charge in a shiny smooth new barrel is very different from the pressure, velocity, and consistency that you'll get once that barrel reaches a steady state of roughness and fire cracking from hundreds of rounds.
This can lead to chasing your tail with load development every time you get a new barrel, even if it's the same as your last.
What I've learned to do is develop a load in a barrel with hundreds of rounds on it, and then keep the load the same. Even if it doesn't appear to shoot as well in a new barrel, keep shooting it and it gets good once the barrel is fully broken in (200 'ish rounds).
If you optimize a load in a brand new barrel, it will likely not be optimal in the long run, and vise versa.
Just looking at the bore of a new barrel compared to one that's thoroughly broken in shows you they are not the same animal. The internal ballistics are affected by the surface roughness which is why you see new barrels speed up in the first couple 100 rounds with the same ammo.”
View: https://www.instagram.com/p/CcTuZn9rdWm/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
“bryan_litz_ballistics Trying to do serious load development within the first ~200 rounds of a barrel can be a waste of time.
The pressure, velocity, and consistency that you can make with a given powder charge in a shiny smooth new barrel is very different from the pressure, velocity, and consistency that you'll get once that barrel reaches a steady state of roughness and fire cracking from hundreds of rounds.
This can lead to chasing your tail with load development every time you get a new barrel, even if it's the same as your last.
What I've learned to do is develop a load in a barrel with hundreds of rounds on it, and then keep the load the same. Even if it doesn't appear to shoot as well in a new barrel, keep shooting it and it gets good once the barrel is fully broken in (200 'ish rounds).
If you optimize a load in a brand new barrel, it will likely not be optimal in the long run, and vise versa.
Just looking at the bore of a new barrel compared to one that's thoroughly broken in shows you they are not the same animal. The internal ballistics are affected by the surface roughness which is why you see new barrels speed up in the first couple 100 rounds with the same ammo.”
View: https://www.instagram.com/p/CcTuZn9rdWm/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
i figured lips thing on my own
- adjusted MDT one. the other one - MPA provided 'accurate mag' does not seem to be fixable. i read complaints about that mag on MPA reviews as well, it does not seem to be a new thing. i tried to apply a scientific hammer to it - literally - pressing sides a bit tighter in and then taking off a bit of material from follower to make it fit better so it would not turn sideways inside when you put rounds in - but not sure if it will fix anything.i am working on rounds development now, really, magazine issues is of a less concern to me. i tried looking online, it does not seem to be any other kits that would look like this 'accurate mag' BS - so, not sure what to do with it.
if those a-holes would not cheap out on the 3d printer media they could have printed a rib that would prevent the lip on the right to bend inward like it does - that is why i think it flips inside. pity.
PS. also - all the kits i see are for 10rd mags. this one looks like a 12 rounder, it is taller than a 10rd MDT i ordered.
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yeah, and after 1200 rounds shot the barrel is to be discarded and new one needs to go on.
what does it leave for an actual shooting it?
I am now past 200 count - counting in all the fireforming shots.prepped a ladder of 80 rounds to see the 31,31.3,31.6,31.8 at 060 and 065 off lands. Will see.
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Mudflap621
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Pretty sure that accurate is a 10 round I don’t beleive they make a 12 rounder. The MDT mag is a little different as it’s a double stack/single feed design and they can get it a little shorter.i figured lips thing on my own
i am working on rounds development now, really, magazine issues is of a less concern to me. i tried looking online, it does not seem to be any other kits that would look like this 'accurate mag' BS - so, not sure what to do with it.
View attachment 623384
if those a-holes would not cheap out on the 3d printer media they could have printed a rib that would prevent the lip on the right to bend inward like it does - that is why i think it flips inside. pity.
PS. also - all the kits i see are for 10rd mags. this one looks like a 12 rounder, it is taller than a 10rd MDT i ordered.
AHM
NES Member
Having consulted The Bride,
whose day job was statistical analysis of computer component properties...
In order to have any confidence in whether the statistical variation you see in the results
between groups are caused by varying the jump distance,
it requires taking multiple shots with identical values for all of the parameters
(jump distance, bullet weight, powder charge, ...) at each experimental jump distance;
and then comparing the standard deviations between the individual groups.
whose day job was statistical analysis of computer component properties...
In order to have any confidence in whether the statistical variation you see in the results
between groups are caused by varying the jump distance,
it requires taking multiple shots with identical values for all of the parameters
(jump distance, bullet weight, powder charge, ...) at each experimental jump distance;
and then comparing the standard deviations between the individual groups.
the whole deal is - there are many more parameters in there than just that. it is way more about the brass prep than just a seating depth and a charge.
and, again, that whole damn deal is - you can NEVER get all of the parameters identical. but you can try, of course, to do your best, but, it is still not going to be anywhere close to a mathematical perfection that can guarantee a 'confidence'. so you do it by your guts, without any guarantees.
You guys are really into the weeds. It's probably been answered before, but I've lost the answer to this question: What is the goal with this rifle? What target are you shooting at? Is it just a simple theoretical/practical exercise to get the smallest group possible? Or is there a certain game or competition you're looking to play in?
AHM
NES Member
Oh really? It is not. Ok. Very good to know.That's not how any of this works.
Confidence interval - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
“ -that guy is a mathematician
- how do you know?
- he gave 3 perfectly correct answers and each one was absolutely useless “
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AHM
NES Member
cathouse01
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If you want to see people who get into the weeds, just look at an issue of Very High Power, the magazine for the Fifty Caliber Shooters Association. They get into some math analyzing “yaw drag” and its impact on a bullet’s Ballistic Coefficient that is challenging for a math major. They look at two components for BC. Basic drag along the bullet’s axis when the bullet is pointed directly ahead and there is no wind. And then there is yaw drag caused by the bullet not actually pointing directly into the oncoming air flow due to wind and the bullet not being perfectly balanced along its center line. You can have what they call “Hyper Stabilized” bullets that will minimize yawing and its corresponding yaw drag. This is accomplished with CNC machined, long for caliber monolithic bullets and fast twist rates.
It really is in the weeds, but it does end up with useful info. It turns out that at very short range (300 yards or less), you don't care about yaw drag, or drag at all for that matter. What you want is pure accuracy, which means slow twists and stubby bullets. As you go further out, ballistics starts to matter more, and so drag (and yaw drag) start to matter more. At some point, the accuracy you gained with the slow twist is lost to poor ballistics. At ELR ranges, ballistics utterly dominate, so that's why really fast twists with really long bullets rule the day, and why it doesn't matter if your ELR rifle can shoot 0.25 minute groups. The things you do to get short range benchrest levels of accuracy can be counterproductive for ELR.
