The military has been using red dots with batteries for over a decade. And I’ve got backup sights on my slide with the RDS.
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The move towards red dot sights
- Thread starter Rockrivr1
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The military has been using red dots with batteries for over a decade. And I’ve got backup sights on my slide with the RDS.
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At a recent uspsa classifier it was amusing to watch when a few of the open and carry optic shooters had to shoot of hand
Some serious dot loss going on
Some serious dot loss going on
AHM
NES Member
Not to mention what happens to all of the water after the operator takes the first shot...
You implied they were dumb with your myriad of negative posts and attempts at justifying your “crappy in the rain” claim when presented with evidence to the contrary. You selectively picked a bad frame in the video to highlight how “dumb” they are. Enclosed RDSes definitely provide an advantage over open emitters, but the open emitter water catastrophe is overblown and less of a problem than stated.
They may not be best suited for a carry gun due to the extra bulk. But acquiring the dot quickly just takes a little bit of practice and muscle memory. When you have it down pat, it results in quicker and more accurate shots, even at home defense distances.
Red dots for handguns are the future. They’ve been in their infancy, much like the first rifle red dot sights. But pistol RDSes are getting better and better, and they’re here to stay now. SF guys are using them more and more, and I wager you’ll see more and more police start to use them too.
Evidence to the contrary? The video shows exactly what I was saying, as soon as the emitter gets wet, the dot fragments and distorts. It is an excellent example of what I was talking about. You would have thought Goodwillhunting was trying to prove my point with it. The dot is round and crisp when the lens is wet, just like with an enclosed emitter. As soon as the emitter gets wet, it goes downhill. Even you are admitting it's a problem.
RDS on handguns have their place, they do some things great and some things bad
RDS on handguns have their place, they do some things great and some things bad
Strange. I could have swore that’s what I said and you told me I was wrong and that they have only one benefit. Who woulda thunk.
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My wife has one mounted on her stainless Mini 14 Ranch Rifle. She loves it. Accurate and deadly. I have a taclite on my short barreled 870 which we use for home defense. Slugs and buckshot hit right on target at 30 yards out of the screwed in Modified RemChoke that we installed in this shotgun.
You only listed what you perceived as benefits. So let's hear your negatives.
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Sig seems to be the only gun manufacturer that makes and sells a pistol and RDS together as a package.
When you add up the cost of a gun, RDS and suppressor height night sites, all assembled and with a factory warranty, the Sig P320RX at $725 is a bargain.
I was shooting a qualification course lately and decided to use 3 different pistols I had brought and compare all 3 results,
With the Sig P220 (.45apc) I managed a 380 out of 500 possible points..
With the Sig P226(.9mm) I managed a 440 out of 500 possible points
With the Sig P320 RX(.9mm) I managed a 469 out of 500 possible points.
When you add up the cost of a gun, RDS and suppressor height night sites, all assembled and with a factory warranty, the Sig P320RX at $725 is a bargain.
I was shooting a qualification course lately and decided to use 3 different pistols I had brought and compare all 3 results,
With the Sig P220 (.45apc) I managed a 380 out of 500 possible points..
With the Sig P226(.9mm) I managed a 440 out of 500 possible points
With the Sig P320 RX(.9mm) I managed a 469 out of 500 possible points.
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Dots make shooting Bullseye Pistol easier because it eliminates one of the main variables: sight alignment, which is a fundamental key to precision.
Most people gravitate towards the easiest path.
Most people gravitate towards the easiest path.
citoriguy
NES Member
I had a Vortex Venom that was good, but purchased a Leupold DPP and like that. I’m contemplating a RMR or SRO for another gun.
The DPP sits on a Glock 19 and makes target acquisition so quick and easy.
The DPP sits on a Glock 19 and makes target acquisition so quick and easy.
Sure, it’s a design flaw. There’s a reason why red dots for rifles started as open emitter and eventually moved to closed emitter. That said, it’s not as big of a deal as you’re making it. One isn’t going to need to shoot when the optic is literally full of water. Drawing the gun is going to get rid of any sitting water and then the dot is largely fine. Open emitter RDSes on pistols have been increasingly used in the SF Groups for a few years now. The pistols are regularly exposed to rain. If it were a serious problem, they would have ditched them. That said, yes the closed emitter design is more robust and a better option if one is willing to accept the extra bulk.
Rifle mounted red dots have been used for more than a decade in serious combat. They work just fine the vast majority of the time. That said, any optic that requires a battery for function, should be used with a BUIS mounted.
Rockrivr1
NES Member
It's why I liked the Sig setup. The iron sites co witnessed in the lower 1/3rd which made them easy to pick up if needed but were not obstructive when using the dot.
I’m personally a fan of the Unity Tactical ATOM system. Pistol mounted RDSes seem to be at a turning point with a new generation of development and I didn’t want to get an RMR and be locked into that mount. The ATOM system allows me to change to any new optic coming out in the future while I use an old Docter from my ACOG for the time being.
Attachments
Which is why you put backup iron sights on your slide. If your dot fails use the irons. What’s the big deal?
Grendizer138
NES Member
As usual, no one’s mind has ever been changed from an internet debate.
I saw the effects of rain first-hand; I won’t use them. YMMV.
I saw the effects of rain first-hand; I won’t use them. YMMV.
One of my biggest issues with my pistol is that besides being cross eyed dominant, I also have both terrible nearsightedness and farsightedness. -5/+2.75 . Highly astigmatic as well. So while they tell you not to try to focus on both sights, I can barely see one. I have progressive lenses, and have to move my head to get me looking through the right part of my glasses to see the sight.
For those who might have the same issue and have used a RDS, would a RDS help? I use a RDS with my rifle with no issues at all.
Thanks
For those who might have the same issue and have used a RDS, would a RDS help? I use a RDS with my rifle with no issues at all.
Thanks
allen-1
NES Member
I think you need a better optician to start with. I have astigmatisms in both eyes, and wear progressive bifocals. I spend my working hours in front of a computer and I shoot and ride a motorcycle - all of which require that I be able to see and have eye protection.
I was fortunate enough that one of the guys I shoot with is married to an eye doctor so I've been seeing her for the last couple of years. I was able to define my needs to her so that she could test me and write an appropriate script. Unfortunately she just closed up shop this summer, so I can't recommend her to you - but there is at least one member of this forum who is an eye doctor.
I have absolutely no problem finding the sight. I have issues hitting the target sometimes - but that's entirely on me. What a red dot will do for you, is show you just how much you wiggle when you think you're holding a steady aim. What it will also do at high intensity is give you two dots with your astigmatism. Turn the brightness down.
Dots are fun. I use them for pins, plates, sometimes for steels. I use them on my AR's that don't have scopes. Learning to put the dot on the target is just muscle memory, just like putting the sight on the target.
For me personally, I'm more accurate with them at distance, and I'm slower with them at close range. And I don't want one on my carry guns. That's my choice and I really don't want to have a pissing match with anyone in here about it. I have to live with my choices, they don't have to be your choices.
I'm nearing 60. I wear progressive contacts. Your nearsightedness is nothing. I'm around -11 on both eyes.
I have a hard time focusing on the front sight, particularly in low light. For competition use, my optician made up some shooting glasses to wear over my contacts with my left eye having no correction and my right eye being a +1 reading lens. This lets me see both the target and the front sight and works well for games. Not so much for defensive purposes -- "hold on there robber while I put on my reading glasses..."
The RDS is focused at infinity, just like the target. You focus on the target and you see the red dot overlaid upon it, while keeping both eyes open. So the RDS helps those of us who can't easily focus on close objects like a front sight.
However, RDS comes with its own disadvantages. They are expensive. They are bulky. They require batteries that need regular replacement. They take more practice to use quickly at close distances -- otherwise you end up searching for the dot.
I'm trying to spend about 15 minutes several times per week in the basement doing dryfire. I start with the gun already drawn, held in both hands, compressed to my chest, then extend to the target, find the dot, and press the trigger. Then I start drawing from my holster. I'm hoping this will speed up my ability to draw the gun with the red dot in view. Sadly, Glocks don't point naturally for me, so that is working against me. In a free state, I might play with other options than my Glock 19.
If you're not willing to do a bunch of practice, then the RDS may not be for you.
Other alternatives are 1) learn to point shoot at closer distances (use target focus rather than sight focus) or 2) laser sight (which also requires batteries and will also require new holsters).
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mav
NES Member
This... so red dots can break or run out of batteries in inconvenient moments. One, replace batteries every year (or sooner). Two, test the optic before you holster the gun for carry. Three, ensure you have backup irons in case Murphy strikes. Four, just like ammo, magazines, springs and other important components, make sure you have spare batteries stockpiled.
I get the whole "KISS" mindset, but red dots are used as standard kit in military and police forces all over the world. Maintain it like any other kit.
Not for nothing, but the big draw of Aimpoints, for rifles anyway, is that they are rugged as hell and have a battery life measured in 10's of thousands of hours...
mav
NES Member
Hard to prep for every single circumstance you'll ever encounter, but... if you're seriously considering having to shoot at night, in the rain, either a tactical light (hand-held or mounted) or laser or combo of both becomes important. Personally, I have a tactical hand-held light that is 200+ lumens and can easily fit in a pocket for that scenario. A streamlight would also work, but then I would need new holsters...
Cap'n Mike
NES Member
Sig seems to be in the fore front of making RDS on pistols mainstream, in that they are the only manufacturer that Im aware off that makes sights and pistols and will sell you a complete ready to shoot package with a warranty.
The P320RX is a bargain at $725 when you add up the price of the gun, optic, slide cut and suppressor height night sights.
I recently shot Appleseeds experimental Patriot Pistol Qualification course with 3 different guns to see how well I could do with the different pistols I own.
I dryfire practice with a laser cartridge pretty regularly, put I had been neglecting it the last couple of months.
The course is 10 yards, fast fire and slow fire and a possible total of 500 points. Passing is 400.
With my SIG P220 .45ACP I shot a 380 (Stock other than Hogue Rubber grips)
With my SIG P226 9MM (MK25) I shot a 440 (Only mod is a Short Reset Trigger Kit)
In April, the first time I shot the qual:
With My SIG P320 RX 9MM I shot a 469 (Has an X5 grip module with the weight, but without the funnel magwell)
I had been to a 4 day pistol course in March and had been dryfiring religiously, but the Course of fire was new to me and I had to concentrate more on putting the correct number of rounds in the correct target, which probably slowed me down.
I think we all have the potential to shoot better with a RDS than irons, if we work at it.
I also think its easier to teach a new shooter and for them to learn how to shoot a pistol with a RDS then with Irons.
Its probably more difficult to go from Irons to a RDS with out doing a ton of practice to rewire your brain.
The first time I shot the P320 RX, I did worse than with the irons I was used to.
In my experience Red Dot Sights on a pistol are definitely an improvement over Iron sights, but wont miraculously make you a better shot.
The P320RX is a bargain at $725 when you add up the price of the gun, optic, slide cut and suppressor height night sights.
I recently shot Appleseeds experimental Patriot Pistol Qualification course with 3 different guns to see how well I could do with the different pistols I own.
I dryfire practice with a laser cartridge pretty regularly, put I had been neglecting it the last couple of months.
The course is 10 yards, fast fire and slow fire and a possible total of 500 points. Passing is 400.
With my SIG P220 .45ACP I shot a 380 (Stock other than Hogue Rubber grips)
With my SIG P226 9MM (MK25) I shot a 440 (Only mod is a Short Reset Trigger Kit)
In April, the first time I shot the qual:
With My SIG P320 RX 9MM I shot a 469 (Has an X5 grip module with the weight, but without the funnel magwell)
I had been to a 4 day pistol course in March and had been dryfiring religiously, but the Course of fire was new to me and I had to concentrate more on putting the correct number of rounds in the correct target, which probably slowed me down.
I think we all have the potential to shoot better with a RDS than irons, if we work at it.
I also think its easier to teach a new shooter and for them to learn how to shoot a pistol with a RDS then with Irons.
Its probably more difficult to go from Irons to a RDS with out doing a ton of practice to rewire your brain.
The first time I shot the P320 RX, I did worse than with the irons I was used to.
In my experience Red Dot Sights on a pistol are definitely an improvement over Iron sights, but wont miraculously make you a better shot.
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