Storing firearms in a locked room

[mclina]

I guess I'm a lot more forgetful than you, because I can easily imagine it happening, no emergency required.

Here's a scenario that has happened to me:

-I am at home, and I want to work on/clean one of my guns, or just feel like smelling the inside of my safe.
-I open my safe for whatever purpose. I proceed to bring a gun down to my workbench.
-My safe has an S&G spin dial, and it requires quite a bit of spinning to get it unlocked,
-I work on the gun, and put it back in the safe. I leave the safe unlocked while I watch some TV.
-One of my kids calls and says they need a ride home from school.
-Halfway to school, I realize I may not have spun the dial on my safe.

Nobody is home, there's no risk one of my kids will shoot themselves, but if a robber happened to break into my house during those 10 minutes, I'd be guilty of having unsecured firearms.

This has maybe happened once or twice.

 

[bigblue]

Some of us also didn't grow up in this hellhole so it isn't second nature nor do I have a checklist where everything is. The room is large enough to accommodate several safes, ammo cabinets, chair, tv, and a work bench.

I built the room for a purpose. I would like it to serve that purpose. This thread was started as a way to best determine how to do that under MA law.

I know it isn't clear. I would like it to be clear that I acted in good faith trying to secure the room. How best to do that? Reinforce the door, walls, and put a lock on the door that is most obviously not a bathroom or bedroom door lock.

 

[MisterHappy]

OP:

If you're looking for dead-certain legal compliance, trigger lock / cable lock all your guns, then put them in your gun room.

This has nothing to do with reasonableness, common sense or any other consideration. Just the letter of the [asinine] law.

What should be, and what is are not relevant, and to those who say, "I'd argue that [insert setup here] is acceptable...." please feel free to test the waters.

Re the Lowell thing mentioned above: the guy's vault was described by a cop at the time as "very secure". Eventually most of the charges thrown at him were dropped, IIRC, but he was still in a world of hurt, despite what pretty much anyone here would "Argue was acceptable".

The gun lock stuff is a safe-storage, not an anti-theft law.

 

[M1911]

I know it isn't clear. I would like it to be clear that I acted in good faith trying to secure the room. How best to do that? Reinforce the door, walls, and put a lock on the door that is most obviously not a bathroom or bedroom door lock.

As we said, no one knows. The case law isn't clear. Wanting it to be clear doesn't make it clear. You can try asking a MA firearms attorney (like Jason Guida) for their opinion. You may end up having to pay for their time to review the case law. In the end, you will have their opinion.

Some years back I asked two MA firearms attorneys whether it would be legal to sleep with a gun on my nightstand -- not locked up in any way. The only adults in the home would be myself and my wife, and both of us have LTCs. One well-respected MA firearms attorney said that would probably be legal. Another well-respected MA firearms attorney said that it absolutely would not be legal. It hasn't been adjudicated in court. One of them is wrong, but it isn't clear which one.

 

[EJFudd]

The most accurate answer for the OP is that it is a legally grey area but case law cited by M1911 above has a Massachusetts court saying a regular interior room with a locked door is not a locked container. OP has a purpose built basement room but nothing in the law or case law clearly supports a room in a house with a locked door being a locked container.

If you put the gun in a plastic Plano rifle case with a padlock on it you would more likely comply with the law than closing the locked door on your gun room. There are two questions: 1. is it a container and 2. is it locked? With the plastic rifle case it is fairly clear that a plastic case is a container since it is sold and marketed by a commercial company as a container for a rifle. Put a commercially sold padlock on the rifle case and you have a locked container.

The problem with a home made gun room is that no one knows if it is a container because there is no standard market definition of a room as a container. If the statute does not define the term container then you are left with what people generally agree is a container in the commercial market.

Best answer in the entire thread (and there were lots of good ones to choose from).

 

[jasons]

I've attended about 1/2 dozen of Retired Chief Ron Glidden's Firearms Laws classes and his interpretation is a room or closet exclusively for firearms with no windows and a locking door. Keys should be exclusive to the license holder/s. I believe most firearm owners would not store their guns in a room with a cheap lock or door for fear of unlawful entry or theft. Saying that, didn't Lowell charge the gun owner who had the "gun room' that was broken into with unlawful storage even though according to the PD it took the suspects 2 1/2 hours to break through the walls? If you're in a firearm friendly town you're probably okay..if you're in an anti-gun jurisdiction... you take your chances.

Glidden....

 

[allen-1]

Okay, that's an honest answer. I just know that I have left one of the safes open inside the locked room because distracted.

I am not worried about best case scenarios where trigger locks are used and safes are all closed up tight. I'm worried about worst case where I forget to close something or leave a partially assembled rifle out for cleaning and somebody knocks on my front door (or no-knocks for that matter).

If people are planning for the best case scenario then they aren't doing a very good job anticipating problems. There is a distinct difference between living scared and being prepared. I guess that Boy Scout mentality is deeply ingrained.

My answer to the distraction was to cut a good size yellow triangle and put it on the front of the gunsafe with a magnet. When I open the safe, I move the triangle to the metal door just above the doorknob. If I try to leave the room, and the yellow triangle's by the doorknob - the safe's unlocked. Not entirely failsafe because I'm the weak link, but it does make it harder to walk away from the unlocked safe.

 

[7.62x39]

Parzick lost because the judge didn't think the lock he used was secure enough. (It was one of those privacy locks that people put on interior bathroom doors.) It may have gone the other way if he had used a real lock. Maybe.

I think we are falling on deaf ears, I've mentioned that twice in this thread already (posts 33 & 58) and I got no responses either.

 

[M1911]

I think we are falling on deaf ears, I've mentioned that twice in this thread already (posts 33 & 58) and I got no responses either.

Because no one knows whether he would have won if his door had had good lock on it. The court didn't specify what would be compliant.

 

[drgrant]

Glidden....

I have an ayoob glue fume sniffing meme, I think I gotta do a Glidden one next....

-Mike

 

[EJFudd]

Because no one knows whether he would have won if his door had had good lock on it. The court didn't specify what would be compliant.

Correct. In fact, they went out of their way to avoid addressing the obvious corollary question.

 

[jasons]

OP:

If you're looking for dead-certain legal compliance, trigger lock / cable lock all your guns, then put them in your gun room.

This has nothing to do with reasonableness, common sense or any other consideration. Just the letter of the [asinine] law.

What should be, and what is are not relevant, and to those who say, "I'd argue that [insert setup here] is acceptable...." please feel free to test the waters.

Re the Lowell thing mentioned above: the guy's vault was described by a cop at the time as "very secure". Eventually most of the charges thrown at him were dropped, IIRC, but he was still in a world of hurt, despite what pretty much anyone here would "Argue was acceptable".

The gun lock stuff is a safe-storage, not an anti-theft law.

Dead certain legal compliance in MA is an impossible goal. Just as an example, look at Parzick - the judge seemed to have no problem with the "container" (room in that case) but he did have a problem with the security of the lock.

We likewise conclude that G. L. c. 140, § 131L, requires guns to be maintained in locked containers in a way that will deter all but the most persistent from gaining access. Even a door locked with a key is not secure if the key is hanging next to the lock. Assuming the defendant's bedroom to be a container, and further that it was locked at the time of the theft, [Note 4] the defendant was in violation of G. L. c. 140, § 131L, because the lock was easily defeated by anyone with access to a bobby pin and did not prevent ready access by anyone other than the lawful owner. Because the evidence supports a finding that the room was not a securely locked container, denial of the defendant's motions for a required finding of not guilty was proper.

So now instead of just being locked, we need a lock that will "deter all but the most persistent from gaining access", but what the F does that mean? Is a cheap Chinese padlock on a gun case secure enough? How about one of those cable locks that you can cut off with a pair of linesman's pliers? What if it's an expensive combination lock but the combo is 1-2-3-4?

So yeah, after Parzick compliance got a lot more dicey in general. Those cable / trigger locks we've all been using for years may or may not good enough. A room with a good lock may or may not be good enough. The only way to know for sure is to be a defendant.


EDIT: It didn't help that Parzick was a lousy defendant. We all would have been better off if the case never went to trial.

 

[M1911]

The only way to know for sure is to be a defendant.

Yup. You pay your money and you take your chances.

 

[bigblue]

As such, those plastic ammo cases may not be good enough when put to the test either.

I'm just trying to come up with something reasonable to avoid ever getting to the DA point in this discussion. Whether it is viewed reasonably in a courtroom is something that i think has been established: We will never know until it happens.

 

[jasons]

I'm just trying to come up with something reasonable to avoid ever getting to the DA point in this discussion.

Just try to stay off of their radar. That's the best advice I can give.

 

[7.62x39]

Because no one knows whether he would have won if his door had had good lock on it. The court didn't specify what would be compliant.

Well, I know that if My room ever comes into question it won't be because of the door or the locks. Solid slab door with 3 class III locks, 5 commercial grade hinges welded to a 2" angle iron frame.

I'm not too worried about the rest of it either. studs have been doubled to 8" on center, 3/4" plywood glued and screwed every 8"

 

[MisterHappy]

Jason:

Just use the locks that the cops hand out. It has the imprimatur of John Law.

 

[bigblue]

Cough puke pass. (It's like puff puff pass but different)

 

[LoginName]

Well, I know that if My room ever comes into question it won't be because of the door or the locks. Solid slab door with 3 class III locks, 5 commercial grade hinges welded to a 2" angle iron frame.

I'm not too worried about the rest of it either. studs have been doubled to 8" on center, 3/4" plywood glued and screwed every 8"

View attachment 132363

View attachment 132364

View attachment 132365

I took a close look to see if the hinge pins were on the inside.

 

[bigblue]

Hinge pins? Spend $50 at Harbor Freight on an angle grinder or circular saw. Best you can do is make a good faith effort.

 

[1903Collector]

Hinge pins? Spend $50 at Harbor Freight on an angle grinder or circular saw. Best you can do is make a good faith effort.

When I did my room my thinking was if they are determined enough and have enough time they will get in.....I just tried to make it as difficult as I possibly could with the resources I had at the time.

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

Not very expensive:

^^^Not a bad idea at all!

I found the case, Commonwealth v Parzick.

In his appeal, the defendant contends that guns stored in an unlocked bedroom closet within a locked bedroom are "secured in a locked container"

He lost his appeal.

So no matter how well locked your "gun room" is, it simply isn't clear to me that it satisfies the "locked container." Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't.

You're misinterpreting Parzick. You're quoting that facts of the case, not the conclusion of law:

We likewise conclude that G. L. c. 140, § 131L, requires guns to be maintained in locked containers in a way that will deter all but the most persistent from gaining access. Even a door locked with a key is not secure if the key is hanging next to the lock. Assuming the defendant's bedroom to be a container, and further that it was locked at the time of the theft, the defendant was in violation of G. L. c. 140, § 131L, because the lock was easily defeated by anyone with access to a bobby pin and did not prevent ready access by anyone other than the lawful owner.

Basically, what the SJC said is: "If Parzick had made an attempt to actually lock his bedroom door, we might come to a different conclusion. I believe that a securely locked room can meet the requirements of 131L if the own takes the SJC's objections to Parzick's case into account.

But again, you've got to keep in mind that you can be screwed without a conviction. Virtually any conviction or guilty plea for a storage offense makes one a federally prohibited person. All you need is a PD willing to say that your storage arrangement doesn't meet 131L's requirement and a DA that will go along and you're screwed.

If you chose to go to trial you'd probably win and be out a LOT of money. But in the unlikely event you lose, you're going to jail. Or, do you accept a no jail, limited probation guilty plea which will let you get on with your life and save you a butt-load of money????

 

[LoginName]

Hinge pins? Spend $50 at Harbor Freight on an angle grinder or circular saw. Best you can do is make a good faith effort.

When I did my room my thinking was if they are determined enough and have enough time they will get in.....I just tried to make it as difficult as I possibly could with the resources I had at the time.

Same here. When I first built it, I put any tools that could be used to break into it inside the room (sawzall, circular saw, crow bars, etc).

That didn't last long as I realized it might have been a bit of overkill, and anyone running any of my power
tools would alert the person upstairs (I swear she can hear an ant fart, and she knows when
I'm home or not). That plus it was a PITA any time I needed those tools, and they cluttered up
storage space.

Due to space and location, I had to install the door with the hinge pins facing out/door opens out.

To prevent anyone from drifting the pins out and removing the door that way, I drilled a hole in both
sides of the hinge, than ran a 3/8" x 1" steel rod through one side of the hinge into the door frame
(think how a safe or vault door has locking pins on 2-4 sides).

 

[beerjeep]

Here's a scenario that has happened to me:

-I am at home, and I want to work on/clean one of my guns, or just feel like smelling the inside of my safe.
-I open my safe for whatever purpose. I proceed to bring a gun down to my workbench.
-My safe has an S&G spin dial, and it requires quite a bit of spinning to get it unlocked,
-I work on the gun, and put it back in the safe. I leave the safe unlocked while I watch some TV.
-One of my kids calls and says they need a ride home from school.
-Halfway to school, I realize I may not have spun the dial on my safe.

Nobody is home, there's no risk one of my kids will shoot themselves, but if a robber happened to break into my house during those 10 minutes, I'd be guilty of having unsecured firearms.

This has maybe happened once or twice.

This happened to a friend of mine. His adult son was sought on a warrant and the safe door was open when he answered the door. Grandpa's hand me downs took a ride to the station and likely on to Dowd or his ilk. He and the wife were too preoccupied with the kid's situation to focus or fight about the heirlooms and a few boxes of ammo.

 

[M1911]

This happened to a friend of mine. His adult son was sought on a warrant and the safe door was open when he answered the door. Grandpa's hand me downs took a ride to the station and likely on to Dowd or his ilk. He and the wife were too preoccupied with the kid's situation to focus or fight about the heirlooms and a few boxes of ammo.

I feel safer already.

 

[IvIax]

 

[1903Collector]

Is that yours?.......I mean the girl!

 

[MikeInMA]

I really need to get more organized.

 

[namedpipes]

I need that one.

 

[bigblue]

Does she fit back in the closet?

I meant this in a "genie in a bottle" kind of way, as in she is the gun genie who pops out when you open the cabinet. Just to be clear...