Storing firearms in a locked room

[bigblue]

The room is in the basement and was constructed for the express purpose of being used as an armory. House is in MA or I wouldn't be worrying. door is an interior wood door. As I understand it there is no judgment as to the quality of the "container" being used?

There are safes contained therein but were I to leave something out and lock the door would there be an issue?

How accessible/inaccessible should the keys be? I am not locking up keys in a bock that needs to be unlocked, that is absurd. Short of putting a vault door or combination lock on the door what are my options?

 

[Fixxah]

Mass.? Steel door? Most of my ammo boxes are locked in a room with a heavy door.

 

[M1911]

How accessible/inaccessible should the keys be? I am not locking up keys in a bock that needs to be unlocked, that is absurd. Short of putting a vault door or combination lock on the door what are my options?

Keep the keys on your person at all times?

 

[bigblue]

Keep the keys on your person at all times?

That's tough as I sleep ... let's just say I can't do that when I sleep. At some point the keys are going to be set down.

Wife has her LTC, there are no children, and the dog can't shoot.

 

[M1911]

Not very expensive:

 

[M1911]

That's tough as I sleep ... let's just say I can't do that when I sleep.

Presumably, it would be legal if you left on the nightstand, same as if the guns were locked with trigger locks and the trigger lock keys were on your nightstand. If you want to go overboard, put the keys in a combination document safe or pistol box.

But I don't think that is most pertinent issue. I think the most pertinent issue is whether a locked "gun room" meets the standard or not, and based on the one case I'm aware of, it just isn't clear to me.

 

[1903Collector]

I could do this as my "room" has a steel frame/solid door with commercial entry and deadbolt sets. The two interior walls have 5/8" plywood on both sides under the drywall so it's pretty secure except for one thing...the ****ing main water shutoff for the house is in a closet in the room so everything is in safes.

 

[bigblue]

$3-400 for a simplex door lock on Amazon. I suppose that would bump it up a notch security wise. Hmmm... When it comes down to DA discretion & court opinion when interpreting whether the room is in fact a locked container then I guess the method of locking the door is an issue.

That is why the key question.

 

[M1911]

When it comes down to DA discretion & court opinion when interpreting whether the room is in fact a locked container then I guess the method of locking the door is an issue.

Even if it is locked, it still isn't clear to me whether it is considered to be a locked container.

 

[MikeInMA]

A fire rated steel door from HD will have a steel casing also. At least the one to my garage did. Was not very expensive and if reinforced would be formidable to a kicker I hope.

 

[bigblue]

So I guess that bears the question, at what point does a locked room become a vault or "container" for storage purposes?

Is there really any way for us to know until they kick down the door?

 

[4runner1443]

I think you would be safer legally to buy the cheapest metal container at a Home Depot that can take a padlock than to put a more secure door lock on an interior wood door for a room in your house and call that a locked container. A cheap safe from Walmart, a used construction site steel job box, or even a metal file cabinet with doors that padlock in theory should all constitute a locked container. An interior room with a regular door and a door lock may not cut it in Massachusetts and the MA courts are no friend to the law abiding gun owner in this state.

 

[roccoracer]

I also have a gun room. Mine was build for that purpose alone and I have an electronic lock on it. Once inside all of my guns are also in safes. But what about all the ammo? Is it legit to just have in in ammo cans on the floor? I hate this sate.

Have a fine Navy day.

 

[M1911]

I found the case, Commonwealth v Parzick.

In his appeal, the defendant contends that guns stored in an unlocked bedroom closet within a locked bedroom are "secured in a locked container"

He lost his appeal.

So no matter how well locked your "gun room" is, it simply isn't clear to me that it satisfies the "locked container." Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't.

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I also have a gun room. Mine was build for that purpose alone and I have an electronic lock on it. Once inside all of my guns are also in safes. But what about all the ammo? Is it legit to just have in in ammo cans on the floor? I hate this sate.

There is no statutory requirement to have your ammo locked up. There used to be a fire regulation that requires it. It isn't clear to me whether that fire regulation is still in effect or not.

 

[rep308]

Not very expensive:

this is easier and what I have:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000VYO7Y0/ref=oh_cust_rec_bia_aui_atct_x_detailpage0?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[bigblue]

This definitely is not a bedroom, it is a room constructed for this purpose. There is no other access into the room other than through the door.

I could see the bedroom argument and wish he had a lock on that closet so the case were clearer. ugh, I hate this state too.

I'm not talking about whether or not I have safes inside a gun room/vault. I am talking about whether a gun is, say on the bench being worked on, and I leave it out but lock the vault/armory/room.

 

[allen-1]

A fire rated steel door from HD will have a steel casing also. At least the one to my garage did. Was not very expensive and if reinforced would be formidable to a kicker I hope.

The thing about doors, (and this doesn't apply to at least two of the posters who've already referred to reinforced walls), is that we view them (and windows) as the natural entrances to rooms. If the door is too hard to open, then if you're really serious about breaking into a room, and you've got some privacy it can be a lot easier to make a new opening in the wall. This can also let you bypass some typical alarm systems.

 

[M1911]

So I guess that bears the question, at what point does a locked room become a vault or "container" for storage purposes?

No one knows.

Is there really any way for us to know until they kick down the door?

That won't clarify it. It would only be clarified after you spent many kilodollars appealing a conviction up to the Supreme Judicial Court.

As Len said in the other thread, there is case law that indicates that a locked bedroom with an unlocked closet isn't a locked container (Commonwealth v Parzick). But there isn't case law that specifies what is a locked container.

It isn't worth the risk. Lock up the guns within the "safe room". Yes, it is stupid, but for the cost of an hour of an attorney's time, you can buy a bunch of combination trigger locks. If you want to leave a gun out of your safe(s), then throw on a trigger lock.

 

[mclina]

I'm not talking about whether or not I have safes inside a gun room/vault. I am talking about whether a gun is, say on the bench being worked on, and I leave it out but lock the vault/armory/room.

I've often wondered about guns that are works in progress. If I am, say, refinishing a stock, I will typically put the action back into the safe if I leave the house. I've also locked up bolts for guns that I am working on, but there have been times when there is most of a gun on my bench in a lot of pieces. I know none of my kids would know how to put them back together, and there's no ammo out, so I don't worry too much, but what is legal and what isn't?

I'll echo the sentiment - this state sucks.

 

[MikeInMA]

The thing about doors, (and this doesn't apply to at least two of the posters who've already referred to reinforced walls), is that we view them (and windows) as the natural entrances to rooms. If the door is too hard to open, then if you're really serious about breaking into a room, and you've got some privacy it can be a lot easier to make a new opening in the wall. This can also let you bypass some typical alarm systems.

This is true. 1/2" drywall isn't too hard to defeat.

 

[Len-2A Training]

The room is in the basement and was constructed for the express purpose of being used as an armory. House is in MA or I wouldn't be worrying. door is an interior wood door. As I understand it there is no judgment as to the quality of the "container" being used?

There are safes contained therein but were I to leave something out and lock the door would there be an issue?

How accessible/inaccessible should the keys be? I am not locking up keys in a bock that needs to be unlocked, that is absurd. Short of putting a vault door or combination lock on the door what are my options?

See "red flag" above. Interior wood doors are hollow-core and a fist will go thru them. Almost a guarantee that a DA will nail you on that alone.

What is a "bock" . . . I seriously don't know what word you meant here. At any rate, keys left somewhere is also a ticket to court.

Not very expensive:

Presumably, it would be legal if you left on the nightstand, same as if the guns were locked with trigger locks and the trigger lock keys were on your nightstand. If you want to go overboard, put the keys in a combination document safe or pistol box.

But I don't think that is most pertinent issue. I think the most pertinent issue is whether a locked "gun room" meets the standard or not, and based on the one case I'm aware of, it just isn't clear to me.

Those Simplex locks are great, we used them on our labs and storage area at DEC. It shows an intent to secure the room too and could win points in a trial.

Many LE (and some firearm attorneys disagree . . . that leaving an unlocked gun on the nightstand while you sleep does NOT comply with the law. Do so at your own risk in MA.

Parzick definitely throws a monkey-wrench into the works for figuring out what is a secure room or not.

So I guess that bears the question, at what point does a locked room become a vault or "container" for storage purposes?

Is there really any way for us to know until they kick down the door?

I found the case, Commonwealth v Parzick.

He lost his appeal.

So no matter how well locked your "gun room" is, it simply isn't clear to me that it satisfies the "locked container." Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't.

There is no statutory requirement to have your ammo locked up. There used to be a fire regulation that requires it. It isn't clear to me whether that fire regulation is still in effect or not.

There still is a regulation on ammo storage, just a new one 527 CMR 1.0. It is MORE strict than the old one . . . even with a permit all ammo must be locked up at all times in "original containers" (this was exempted in old CMR if you had a permit, likely by accident however).

 

[knfmn]

Reading through the case, it sure *sounds* like the court is saying that if the room has a proper keyed lock on it, with reasonable efforts made to keep the keys out of the hands of people who shouldn't have access to them, you should be ok. IANAL and I know that Massachusetts never resists an opportunity to screw people over, so I wouldn't chance it. Trigger locks when left out in the locked room. I hate this freaking state so badly. :/

 

[The5thDentist]

Only in a state like Massachusetts is this an issue. This should be so obvious, but oooooh noooo, not in Mass.

 

[bigblue]

bock = lock box, CLEARLY (sorry brain connected dots and created its own word)

Interior door in question happens to be 100 years old and is not hollow core. Could I get through it if necessary and my life depended on it? Yeah but it's more secure than any window or non-steel exterior door. I'm not clear on why the quality of the door matters?

I think, based on reading this thread and other sources, that upgrading to a keyless lock would more obviously call out the room and differentiate it from a simple bedroom or closet.


The original container rule is beyond absurd. As is locking things up inside a locked vault/armory/storage room. Has anyone ever been prosecuted for not saving original containers?



I do apologize that we even have to discuss this but it's clearly not clear thanks to this absurd state.

 

[LoginName]

No one knows.



That won't clarify it. It would only be clarified after you spent many kilodollars appealing a conviction up to the Supreme Judicial Court.

As Len said in the other thread, there is case law that indicates that a locked bedroom with an unlocked closet isn't a locked container (Commonwealth v Parzick). But there isn't case law that specifies what is a locked container.

It isn't worth the risk. Lock up the guns within the "safe room". Yes, it is stupid, but for the cost of an hour of an attorney's time, you can buy a bunch of combination trigger locks. If you want to leave a gun out of your safe(s), then throw on a trigger lock.

Just goes to show you how messed up the safe storage law is.

One can construct a small 4'x4' room in the corner of the basement using cinder blocks, steel door with a
quality lock and still possibly run afoul of the law.

Or... one can simply have all their firearms scattered around the house, but as long as they all have
a trigger lock attached (which any 10 year old can pick open in a matter of seconds), they're good
to go.

 

[4runner1443]

The most accurate answer for the OP is that it is a legally grey area but case law cited by M1911 above has a Massachusetts court saying a regular interior room with a locked door is not a locked container. OP has a purpose built basement room but nothing in the law or case law clearly supports a room in a house with a locked door being a locked container.

If you put the gun in a plastic Plano rifle case with a padlock on it you would more likely comply with the law than closing the locked door on your gun room. There are two questions: 1. is it a container and 2. is it locked? With the plastic rifle case it is fairly clear that a plastic case is a container since it is sold and marketed by a commercial company as a container for a rifle. Put a commercially sold padlock on the rifle case and you have a locked container.

The problem with a home made gun room is that no one knows if it is a container because there is no standard market definition of a room as a container. If the statute does not define the term container then you are left with what people generally agree is a container in the commercial market.

 

[ToddDubya]

Not sure if secure:

Secure as f**k:

 

[milktree]

Gun shops don't put trigger locks on every single handgun and rifle or put them all in safes every night when they close, do they?

I'd think if a gun shop can use their whole shop as a "locked case", something similar should be just fine for the rest of us.

Or is this a case where the FFL01s actually have fewer restrictions, despite being a far bigger target?

 

[Christian]

all ammo must be locked up at all times in "original containers"

That never made much sense to me.

So technically everyone who doesn't unload their EDC mags and place the ammo back into it's "original containers" would be in violation of the regulation? I guess the folks that have a gajillion AR/AK mags topped off in their safes awaiting a SHTF/zombie apocalypse/go time scenario are really screwed.

 

[M1911]

Many LE (and some firearm attorneys disagree . . . that leaving an unlocked gun on the nightstand while you sleep does NOT comply with the law. Do so at your own risk in MA.

I was saying leaving the KEYS on the nightstand while you sleep, not the gun.

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Not sure if secure:

No, that is clearly a safe and would be in compliance with the law.

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I've often wondered about guns that are works in progress. If I am, say, refinishing a stock, I will typically put the action back into the safe if I leave the house. I've also locked up bolts for guns that I am working on, but there have been times when there is most of a gun on my bench in a lot of pieces. I know none of my kids would know how to put them back together, and there's no ammo out, so I don't worry too much, but what is legal and what isn't?

If the receiver is out of the safe and unattended, then throw a trigger lock on it.