Get a small safe to put the keys into.
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Storing firearms in a locked room
- Thread starter bigblue
- Start date
Get a small safe to put the keys into.
So I have to paint my room beige and put a bigger door handle on it?
Putting the keys in another safe doesn't solve anything. At all, just one more lock to open another lock. It also doesn't address the "locked container" question.
Putting the keys in another safe doesn't solve anything. At all, just one more lock to open another lock. It also doesn't address the "locked container" question.
Didn't Commonwealth v Parzick Just come down to the fact that the lock used was just a "privacy" lock like that normally used on a bedroom or bathroom?
We all know that, that is not a real lock and is easily defeated with a bobby pin or a myriad of other small objects. I thought I remember reading something to that effect.
We all know that, that is not a real lock and is easily defeated with a bobby pin or a myriad of other small objects. I thought I remember reading something to that effect.
Even if the keys are in your pocket, that still doesn't clarify whether a locked room is a locked container under MA law. That problem remains.
I guarantee that any safe you own can be open in 20 minutes or less. Anything short of a bank vault is easy work for either a $50 angle grinder or a $200 plasma torch. Those cute Fort Knox safes are just for show and to give you warm fuzzies at night.
So... Make sure my room resembles a vault and "locked container" as much as possible. And even then I am still taking a chance. Great.
So... Make sure my room resembles a vault and "locked container" as much as possible. And even then I am still taking a chance. Great.
It doesn't have to be a locked container. It needs to be locked to prevent unauthorized use.
I believe in this case the subject of weather the "room" is living space or if it is an oversize closet is more relivant. The "gun room" with a couch, tv, fridge, reloading desk, work bench, wet bar... It's beginning to look like a living room in the eyes of the DA??
I can tell you that recently this question was asked and answered in the LE community that there is NO EXEMPTION for gun shops and thus the law requires all their guns to be locked up too. We all know that this isn't enforced, but I do have to agree that there is no written exemption in the law.
You are conflating two different issues: 1) real security vs. 2) legal compliance. They are two different issues.
If you put a trigger lock with a three digit combination lock on the gun, then you do not have real security. Anyone can steal the gun. Anyone can open the combination within 15 minutes just by trying all possible combinations. Anyone with a screwdriver can open the trigger lock in less time than that. So a trigger lock does not provide real security.
However, at trigger lock does provide legal compliance.
Now you are just bitching. If you leave your guns in your safes inside your gun room, then you aren't taking any legal chance. If you leave a gun out of your safe inside your gun room, but throw one of these on them, then you aren't taking any legal chance:
I would argue that if someone had to go to the extent of employing special equipment such as that is evidence that an attempt was made to comply ith the law and provide greater security than just locking stuff in a room.
Perhaps I was bitching but I think I'm entitled to at least a teeny bit.
Two issues with the trigger lock:
1. The trigger lock doesn't fit most of my guns in question.
2. I am more worried about forgetting something out on the bench or forgetting to close a safe door inside of the locked room. If I had the foresight to lock it up that wouldn't be the concern. If the gun room door locks automatically I don't have any of these issues (well unless the door gets jammed or propped open).
What is the best way to make reasonably certain that the room is legally interpreted as a gun vault or locked container?
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It would take me less time and effort to get into most safes than it would to get into my room.
Two issues with the trigger lock:
1. The trigger lock doesn't fit most of my guns in question.
2. I am more worried about forgetting something out on the bench or forgetting to close a safe door inside of the locked room. If I had the foresight to lock it up that wouldn't be the concern. If the gun room door locks automatically I don't have any of these issues (well unless the door gets jammed or propped open).
What is the best way to make reasonably certain that the room is legally interpreted as a gun vault or locked container?
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It would take me less time and effort to get into most safes than it would to get into my room.
I've attended about 1/2 dozen of Retired Chief Ron Glidden's Firearms Laws classes and his interpretation is a room or closet exclusively for firearms with no windows and a locking door. Keys should be exclusive to the license holder/s. I believe most firearm owners would not store their guns in a room with a cheap lock or door for fear of unlawful entry or theft. Saying that, didn't Lowell charge the gun owner who had the "gun room' that was broken into with unlawful storage even though according to the PD it took the suspects 2 1/2 hours to break through the walls? If you're in a firearm friendly town you're probably okay..if you're in an anti-gun jurisdiction... you take your chances.
Okay, that's an honest answer. I just know that I have left one of the safes open inside the locked room because distracted.
I am not worried about best case scenarios where trigger locks are used and safes are all closed up tight. I'm worried about worst case where I forget to close something or leave a partially assembled rifle out for cleaning and somebody knocks on my front door (or no-knocks for that matter).
If people are planning for the best case scenario then they aren't doing a very good job anticipating problems. There is a distinct difference between living scared and being prepared. I guess that Boy Scout mentality is deeply ingrained.
I am not worried about best case scenarios where trigger locks are used and safes are all closed up tight. I'm worried about worst case where I forget to close something or leave a partially assembled rifle out for cleaning and somebody knocks on my front door (or no-knocks for that matter).
If people are planning for the best case scenario then they aren't doing a very good job anticipating problems. There is a distinct difference between living scared and being prepared. I guess that Boy Scout mentality is deeply ingrained.
You're not the only one. It is ridiculous that this is a crime in this godforsaken state.
Surprisingly no one mentioned cable locks. Those are given with guns to be considered compliant and can you think of anything less secure than one of those? The fire rated door I mentioned earlier has spring hinges to ensure the door always closes unless propped open.
chris_1001
NES Member
Seems the best safe storage container for MA compliance needs to be located in NH sigh...
I always wanted a Locking Gun Room. Hardened walls, door etc. My stuff is locked up within a locked room.
After the Lowell incident, I rethought that.
I always wanted a Locking Gun Room. Hardened walls, door etc. My stuff is locked up within a locked room.
After the Lowell incident, I rethought that.
GlockJock
NES Member
Not to throw sarcasm into this, but (it's the only thing that keeps me sane in this sh*thole state) don't you get the feeling that if Internet access becomes more readily available in hellhole countries to the towel-head terrorists, I'm wondering how many of them will read this forum and say to each other "Wow, these Americans in that area they call Massachusetts sure are stupid, eh? They actually have to lock even their small weapons up? Praise Allah! That will make it so much easier for us when we invade!!...."
Don't quote me on this, but I remember reading something a while back (I think it was a court ruling) that basically stated that as long as the key was not in the lock when you aren't present, it's secured under Massachusetts law. How they'd apply the law if you left the key hanging from a nail next to the door is anyone's guess. It is MA after all.
Wouldn't that disqualify several locks that are specifically made for guns (trigger and cable locks specifically) as well as StackOn gun cabinets which are rated as taking less than one minute for an intruder to break into it? All of those are perfectly acceptable for keeping you in compliance with MA laws.
You are conflating two different issues: 1) real security vs. 2) legal compliance. They are two different issues.
If you put a trigger lock with a three digit combination lock on the gun, then you do not have real security. Anyone can steal the gun. Anyone can open the combination within 15 minutes just by trying all possible combinations. Anyone with a screwdriver can open the trigger lock in less time than that. So a trigger lock does not provide real security.
However, at trigger lock does provide legal compliance.
Now you are just bitching. If you leave your guns in your safes inside your gun room, then you aren't taking any legal chance. If you leave a gun out of your safe inside your gun room, but throw one of these on them, then you aren't taking any legal chance:
Are vise grips considered "special equipment"? Take two, clamp on either side of a trigger lock and counter-twist them. POP....useless piece of plastic with code is useless...
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So is it a matter of wanting to have excused laziness? I have never forgotten to put a firearm back in a safe, or to make sure the safe was securely locked when I was done. Honestly, I don't see how anyone can forget to do either of those two things, except *maybe* in an emergency....
Here's the part I was referring to. The problem was the crappy "privacy" variety lock that a 4 year old could defeat.
From Commonwealth v Parzick
The use of the word "secured" in G. L. c. 140, § 131L, comports with its use in G. L. c. 140, § 123, and indicates that the container must not merely be locked, but securely locked. See Commonwealth v. Lee, 10 Mass. App. Ct. at 522, quoting from Libby v. New York, N.H. & H.R.R., 273 Mass. 522 , 525-526 (1930) (statute is to be interpreted so that "no clause, sentence or word shall prove superfluous, void or insignificant if by any other construction it may be made useful and pertinent"). The Connecticut Supreme Court, in State v. Wilchinski, 242 Conn. 211 (1997), interpreting a similar statute, [Note 3] defined the word "secure" to mean "to 'hold fast,' to 'tie down,' to 'put beyond hazard of losing,' or 'inviolable,' " as well as "to relieve from exposure to danger." Id. at 224-225, quoting from Webster's Third New Intl. Dictionary 2053 (1963). That court concluded that the only logical definition of "secure" in the context of the statute was "one that focuses both on preventing minors from gaining access to guns and on preventing them from being able to misuse the weapon." Id. at 225.
We likewise conclude that G. L. c. 140, § 131L, requires guns to be maintained in locked containers in a way that will deter all but the most persistent from gaining access. Even a door locked with a key is not secure if the key is hanging next to the lock. Assuming the defendant's bedroom to be a container, and further that it was locked at the time of the theft, [Note 4] the defendant was in violation of G. L. c. 140, § 131L, because the lock was easily defeated by anyone with access to a bobby pin and did not prevent ready access by anyone other than the lawful owner.
From Commonwealth v Parzick
The use of the word "secured" in G. L. c. 140, § 131L, comports with its use in G. L. c. 140, § 123, and indicates that the container must not merely be locked, but securely locked. See Commonwealth v. Lee, 10 Mass. App. Ct. at 522, quoting from Libby v. New York, N.H. & H.R.R., 273 Mass. 522 , 525-526 (1930) (statute is to be interpreted so that "no clause, sentence or word shall prove superfluous, void or insignificant if by any other construction it may be made useful and pertinent"). The Connecticut Supreme Court, in State v. Wilchinski, 242 Conn. 211 (1997), interpreting a similar statute, [Note 3] defined the word "secure" to mean "to 'hold fast,' to 'tie down,' to 'put beyond hazard of losing,' or 'inviolable,' " as well as "to relieve from exposure to danger." Id. at 224-225, quoting from Webster's Third New Intl. Dictionary 2053 (1963). That court concluded that the only logical definition of "secure" in the context of the statute was "one that focuses both on preventing minors from gaining access to guns and on preventing them from being able to misuse the weapon." Id. at 225.
We likewise conclude that G. L. c. 140, § 131L, requires guns to be maintained in locked containers in a way that will deter all but the most persistent from gaining access. Even a door locked with a key is not secure if the key is hanging next to the lock. Assuming the defendant's bedroom to be a container, and further that it was locked at the time of the theft, [Note 4] the defendant was in violation of G. L. c. 140, § 131L, because the lock was easily defeated by anyone with access to a bobby pin and did not prevent ready access by anyone other than the lawful owner.
There is no requirement for a safe to be bolted down. There is no requirement for a gun in a safe to have a trigger lock on it. There is no requirement for the safe to be in a locked room.
It is quite clear that guns in a locked safe adhere to the storage law.
It is quite clear that guns with trigger locks on them adhere to the storage law.
The OP's concern is for guns that are not in a locked safe, that do not have trigger locks on them, but are stored in his locked gun room -- that isn't clear.
This is the appropriate part of the law in question, MGL Chapter 140 Section 131l:
As you can see, there is no requirement for multiple devices. You don't need to put trigger locks on the guns in your safe.
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I guess I'm a lot more forgetful than you, because I can easily imagine it happening, no emergency required.
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Parzick lost because the judge didn't think the lock he used was secure enough. (It was one of those privacy locks that people put on interior bathroom doors.) It may have gone the other way if he had used a real lock. Maybe.
