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No love for bayonets?
- Thread starter M60
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M60
NES Member
I probably should have prefaced this thread by saying that a rifle will never be my first choice for a home defense go to gun. I decided a while back, that a glock 21, with pre ban, high cap magazines and a attached laser/ light combination and tritium night sights, loaded with frangible ammunition is what will work best for me. Since I have AR's, the possibility of going to one could arise, so I threw out the bayonet question to see what NES'rs thought of it from a practicality standpoint.
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Couple things first I carry a knife and a pistol but the knife is solely for work. And it's a habit on weekends otherwise I forget it. Two taking advantage of all resources is a good thing but if you ever need a bayonet because 30 Shots of 556 in a house didn't scare your attacker/attackers off no offense but you are more than likely f'ed anyways. Now I'm going under the assumption your talking solely about civilized home defense not shtf. And finally idk if you have kids or not but when things go bump in the night sometimes it wakes the kids too I personally get low when I investigate things because I always feel like bad guys don't look low right away. But starting low with a bayonet is something your kid can turn into a bone corner and stick himself. Plus of you leave it standing in a safe with the bayonet on you don't want to slice your hand fumbling in the dark. Not something I'd be comfy with but to each their own. Ps just to set the record straight not saying there aren't times where a rifle isn't needed. Just saying if it's not over kill it's a bad spot to be in.
I've wished for many things in my life. A bayonet? Never. Not a single soldier in our battalion ever drew them for the field, and when we deployed we left them at home. Says it all, really.
The value of the bayonet since the end of cavalry charges has always been more psychological than practical. Whether on offense or defense, the bayonet is a symbol of bloodlust. Many more people have probably been scared off by bayonets than stabbed with them. If that offsets the length and balance disadvantages, that's up to you. It wouldn't for me.
I will say that of the many bayonet assault courses I've done, they were always taken less seriously than any other type of training.
The value of the bayonet since the end of cavalry charges has always been more psychological than practical. Whether on offense or defense, the bayonet is a symbol of bloodlust. Many more people have probably been scared off by bayonets than stabbed with them. If that offsets the length and balance disadvantages, that's up to you. It wouldn't for me.
I will say that of the many bayonet assault courses I've done, they were always taken less seriously than any other type of training.
There is a primal fear of being stuck more so than being shot in most people for some reason.
That would be an interesting study to determine why that is.
Shark_Cage
NES Member
Would be useful in The Walking Dead
My 91/30 with bayonet and sling is my primary home defense weapon. It covers all my bases. Firearm. Bladed weapon. Blunt instrument. Garrote. I refuse to use chemical weapons. I think it is the safest, most convenient, and fail proof (and foolproof for that matter) method.
M60
NES Member
A very close high school and former active duty Marine friend of mine was seriously injured by an NVA soldiers bayonet at the battle of Way City during the Vietnam conflict. While deployed, I experienced fixed bayonet situations on several occasions when it made absolute sense. Interesting that you say that you didn't take bayonet training seriously and that your entire unit left their bayonets behind when deployed. I'm assuming that the Army must not have gotten very close to the enemy when and where you were deployed. How fortunate for you, forgetting to deploy with your bayonet and all.
MisterHappy
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If I have ammo left, then I'll not be using a bayonet for home defense.
that said, Trapdoor Springfield, '03A1, '03A3, M1, Arisaka and AR are all "complete", for When The Balloon Goes Up.
that said, Trapdoor Springfield, '03A1, '03A3, M1, Arisaka and AR are all "complete", for When The Balloon Goes Up.
Calm down. We didn't "forget" them, we just didn't bring them. Your first post asked for opinions and I gave mine. No need for the attitude.
If you want to clear your house with a bayonet, then do so. If all you want are opinions telling you that, then say so. If your combat experiences have already convinced you that you need a bayonet fixed, then why did you even bother to ask the rest of us?
If you want to clear your house with a bayonet, then do so. If all you want are opinions telling you that, then say so. If your combat experiences have already convinced you that you need a bayonet fixed, then why did you even bother to ask the rest of us?
I love bayonets unconditionally. I just don't know what to DO with them. Take a look at the bayonet evolution and you'll find a conflicted, yet interesting story.
It starts with long spear like implements of death appropriate for the era. Then they get shorter as firearms improve, then lighter, then they break because they're so slim, then they try and make it into a utility/fighting knife, but it's still too heavy to lug around when you'd rather just carry more ammo and it sucks as a bayonet and is an equally poor knife, and makes an even WORSE can opener and wire cutter.
so what are you using a bayonet for exactly because i'd love to find a use for mine other than zombie killing
It starts with long spear like implements of death appropriate for the era. Then they get shorter as firearms improve, then lighter, then they break because they're so slim, then they try and make it into a utility/fighting knife, but it's still too heavy to lug around when you'd rather just carry more ammo and it sucks as a bayonet and is an equally poor knife, and makes an even WORSE can opener and wire cutter.
so what are you using a bayonet for exactly because i'd love to find a use for mine other than zombie killing
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MisterHappy
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Horsip let out a low growl, stuck his head into the corridor, and bellowed, "Guards!"
A sergeant came running, followed by a number of soldiers.
"Clear these natives out of here!" roared Horsip. "And hold them under guard till I give the word!"
The sergeant snapped, "Yes, sir!" and began to bawl orders.
The natives marched past with knives and guns in their backs.
"Listen," said one of the natives conversationally, as he was hustled out of the room, "if you'd just put holes in the guards of those knives, you could slip them over the gun barrels, and it would make it twice as easy—" His voice faded away in the corridor.
From Pandora's Planet:
http://www.baen.com/chapters/W200202/0671318616___1.htm
A sergeant came running, followed by a number of soldiers.
"Clear these natives out of here!" roared Horsip. "And hold them under guard till I give the word!"
The sergeant snapped, "Yes, sir!" and began to bawl orders.
The natives marched past with knives and guns in their backs.
"Listen," said one of the natives conversationally, as he was hustled out of the room, "if you'd just put holes in the guards of those knives, you could slip them over the gun barrels, and it would make it twice as easy—" His voice faded away in the corridor.
From Pandora's Planet:
http://www.baen.com/chapters/W200202/0671318616___1.htm
M60
NES Member
Your absolutely right. My apologies. If you choose to deploy, engage, or whatever else one chooses to call it without all available options, you absolutely have the right to do so and I certainly support your choice. As I've said here, my first choice for home defense is not a rifle and I don't have a bayonet for a hand gun. I simply saw it as informative to point out that there is a very useful purpose for a bayonet after you pointed out that your entire unit opted out of a bayonet option. I am pleased that you never found yourself in a situation that called for one. Really. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
I don't think I've ever attached the bayonet to my Mosin-Nagant, but I think I will now and see what it's like.
Is there a martial art devoted to the bayonet? Something like bartitsu and its focus on using walking sticks?
Is there a martial art devoted to the bayonet? Something like bartitsu and its focus on using walking sticks?
M60
NES Member
Lol. Leave it to you. I see that you took your bayonet training seriously.
Can't help but think if you had bothered to carry a spare mag rather than you oversized letter opener you could just shoot the bad guy before he got so close.
And if your rifle fails, go for your pistol. It has more uses than just for pointing at people in traffic.
M60
NES Member
Sir, you most assuredly are the victim of misinformation. You may wish to check your facts before responding to this response. You can google North Vietnamese Army weapons if it helps. You might also google TET Offensive 1968, 77 day siege of Khe Sahn and battle of Dai Do. There's plenty more, but you are so misinformed that this information will at least give you a chance to sound informed, if and when you respond. Bows and arrows and spears indeed! I truly look forward to your possible response.
See this book for a crossbow arrow found in a helicopter. I've also seen pictures of arrows stuck in the tails of choppers. Maybe I mis-spoke when I said NVA rather than Viet Cong. https://books.google.com/books?id=P...q=arrows found in helicopters vietnam&f=false
Maybe this newspaper article at the time was propaganda, but it reads like it is true https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AAAIBAJ&sjid=szgNAAAAIBAJ&pg=5685,14588&hl=en
I am well aware that other weapons (T53, T56, crude locally made guns, etc) were used most of the time. My grandfather was in Vietnam and personally encountered a VC squad who were well armed.
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In God We Trust
NES Member
I can't help but wonder how it would play with a prosecutor or jury if you hacked a guy to death with a bayonet. Sad that we even have to consider it, but such is life in MA
Length would make it prohibitive in my house, but I guess it would be a nice tool to hold the top if my staircase against any intruders
Length would make it prohibitive in my house, but I guess it would be a nice tool to hold the top if my staircase against any intruders
I think hacking people apart doesn't play well in a lot of states. For some reason I think a lot of people automatically assume more brutality when knives or swords are used than guns.
M60
NES Member
If your grandfather encountered VC, he served his tour of duty in the southern area of South Vietnam. The only Vietnam that I knew is the northern most area defined then as I Corps. Our rear was the northern most supply base in I Corps. LZ Stud. There was only one kind of enemy in that area. It was the well trained, well disciplined, well armed and supplied North Vietnamese Army. There was nothing crude about the shiny, often new, AK47's, complete with bayonets, that were coming from the Norinco factory in china, along with a never ending ammunition supply. The Chinese advisors were a bonus for the NVA as well. They were well uniformed and honestly, I never saw a starving member of the NVA. Their resupply points were close by, naturally and they wanted for nothing. We didn't call them Charlie. We referred to them as Mr. Charles. They both carried and used bayonets. I believe that most people, once they've been in a situation, in which a bayonet has been beneficial, wont need to have it explained a second time to realize the benefit of not leaving it behind. I'm happy to hear that your grandfather has been able to share with you some of his experience.
I was always under the impression that currently/recently bayonetts where more for keeping the enemy AWAY from you while you or someone else reloads/clears a jam/etc...
The only real advantage I could see would be after you run out of ammo or have a major malfunction you would still have a large spear. The added 'scare' factor for a criminal would be minimal since by that time they would already know that you are there and armed. Though if you came out swinging a boardsword you might get a bit of a WTF monment out of them in which to attack....
The only real advantage I could see would be after you run out of ammo or have a major malfunction you would still have a large spear. The added 'scare' factor for a criminal would be minimal since by that time they would already know that you are there and armed. Though if you came out swinging a boardsword you might get a bit of a WTF monment out of them in which to attack....
Yup. It isn't logical, but such decisions are often made based on emotions, rather than logic. You can't shoot someone gently.
While the terrain and enemy TTPs are different, I can assure you that the Army and Marine Corps of the past 13 years most certainly gets VERY close to the enemy. And yet, bayonets have been all but phased out, of both training and issuance. My experience is slightly different than Picton's because we actually brought our metal foot locker full of bayonets, but they were never issued out.
Personally, I find the reason they were never issued out to be more of a problem than the fact that we didn't have them. It was laziness, plain and simple. Unit leadership didn't want to maintain accountability of them and it made property book checks easier.
That said, we really didn't need them. Yes, we got very close to the enemy, but it was usually during MOUT operations and room clearing. Bayonets are not helpful in such situations. During more open engagements, we had the numbers and weapons to maintain standoff. And I can guarantee you that most Infantrymen carried their own personal knife somewhere.
The truth of it all is that while bayonets have become less and less important on the battlefield, and our changing TTPs have reflected this. The bayonet training(which actually may be gone now from Army basic training), has become more about instilling a willingness to kill rather than actual techniques with the bayonet. Let's be honest, if you want to truly use a bayonet effectively, you need a lot of training, like with any martial art. Today, that time is much better spent on various forms of marksmanship, movement techniques, etc..
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