Isosceles or Weaver stance

[Supermoto]

The standard drills were to classifie what class you shot in. I used a standard 45 and milt sparks leather and classified as C class. Not great but I carried the same setup on the street except cut back on magazines. There were some fancy stages too and some action copies like the General Dozier drill and the Sargent York shootdown.

Edited to add, our best shooter in the 5 club circuit we ran was way better than the rest of us. He went to the nationals and came in about 175th...

C class shooters are pretty decent. what clubs did you shoot at? There are still guys shooting that have been in the game for a while, we probably know some of the same people

 

[just jim]

C class shooters are pretty decent. what clubs did you shoot at? There are still guys shooting that have been in the game for a while, we probably know some of the same people

My club is ARPC and the circuit was on the west side of Oregon, I doubt you would know us as our fame doesn't exist

 

[Sprocket]

So I went to a boxing fit gym for the first time. I know nothing about boxing and went to help a friend

The kid started to teach me the punched called out like speed bingo numbers. I got lost pretty fast

Anyway he started talking technique and stance. I interrupted and had him and said, " I shoot and this is how I stand to my target. What is my target here and how do I stand?

The kid blinks and checks my shorts for a gun the gives instruction. It was funny

For the record it was 50/50 iso/weaver to target

 

[SJan]

Why will there not be a single person at Single Stack Nationals this week shooting Weaver with their .45 and .40 major? Hundreds of people there will be shooting isosceles.

About 1/3 the field at SS nationals will be C class or lower shooters. I'd bet a few of those will be using weaver.

our best shooter in the 5 club circuit we ran was way better than the rest of us. He went to the nationals and came in about 175th...

I finished 78th and 87th at 2015 Singlestack and Production nationals, respectively.

Though if your best dude was coming in 175th at Nationals, it would take a LOT of mind games to overcome that.

You can't see my arms in the last shooting position around the wall. In the walk-through I felt I could easily see and engage the last array from around the right side of the wall. When I got there my feet were out of place, and my upper body was too close to the wall, resulting in a forced weaver like grip, with my left arm bent in and my right straight. It sucked. When the recoil of the first shot brought the sights completely out of my vision I tightened up my grip even more, the recoil of the second shot wasn't much better, I pushed and pulled and pressed my hands together, but that position with my left elbow bent in was just stupid. weaver is stupid

 

[bill o]

About 1/3 the field at SS nationals will be C class or lower shooters. I'd bet a few of those will be using weaver.

There's always one or two. Are you going?

 

[SJan]

There's always one or two. Are you going?

Nah, Limited for the whole season for me... Buckalnd is the only local I know of going this year.

 

[just jim]

So with all that gear on for the game do you have to retrain yourself for ccw? Certainly you don't wear your game gear so where do you carry your gun for real?

See in the beginning the basic of IPSC was about self defense but then it got turned to a game...

 

[SJan]

See in the beginning the basic of IPSC was about self defense but then it got turned to a game...

If there was a winner in the beginning, it was always a game.

 

[just jim]

If there was a winner in the beginning, it was always a game.

Not really, it went from realistic carry guns to unlimited race guns.. Its why another game starts up..IDPA and then the gamesmen came along again..

 

[drgrant]

Not really, it went from realistic carry guns to unlimited race guns.. Its why another game starts up..IDPA and then the gamesmen came along again..

Production and Single Stack don't really involve race guns. IDPA is a game too, btw, since day 1... it just happens to have a rulebook written by a church operated by Wilson rather than a committee. Remove the "game" element and then nobody shows up.

-Mike

 

[just jim]

Production and Single Stack don't really involve race guns. IDPA is a game too, btw, since day 1... it just happens to have a rulebook written by a church operated by Wilson rather than a committee. Remove the "game" element and then nobody shows up.

-Mike

My opinion is that games don't develop the thinking and real skills for carrying a gun. You may improve in marksmanship but there isn't much in tactics and common sense. People confuse things, they say first rule in a gunfight is have a gun but I would add don't let anyone know you have it until it must come out. The game takes away reality... just my opinion and I know just like politics people will disagree. ..vehemently

Edited to add, if you don't want it a game then don't keep score.....

 

[peterthefish]

My opinion is that games don't develop the thinking and real skills for carrying a gun. You may improve in marksmanship but there isn't much in tactics and common sense. People confuse things, they say first rule in a gunfight is have a gun but I would add don't let anyone know you have it until it must come out. The game takes away reality... just my opinion and I know just like politics people will disagree. ..vehemently

Edited to add, if you don't want it a game then don't keep score.....

Shooting Cliche Count:

1) Competition was great before the gamerz killed it.
2) Back in the day when I competed the men were men and the mustaches were fantastic.
3) Competition will get you killed in the streetz.
4) C class shooter telling folks how it is.

Bonus: C Class from back in the day when the HHF of El Pres was a 6.

 

[MMArtist]

It's kinda like martial arts, someone always says one way is best but fact is we are not all the same. In my opinion the best way is what ever it takes to hit the target is the best way so practice everything you can.

Im glad you used the martial arts analogy...

Its better to practice what is proven to be the best way.. Through competition we found out what is the best way. It was that way with martial arts.. before the early 90s everyone thought jumping around doing the splits was the way to fight. Then we learned that grappling, wrestling, judo, muay thai and western boxing actually worked.. we also learn that everything else was taught by a bunch of clowns trying to bilk people out of their money.

In the same token we used to think that weaver was the way to go. The military still teaches it.. law enforcement still teaches it.. Luckily for both of them, effective handgun shooting isn't really all that necessary for what they do day to day.

As far as learning everything... We all have limited time to develop the skill it takes to compete or function at a high level. Wasting time on things that are not effective or less effective is just that... a waste.

If you want to be good at something you drill and practice the basic concepts of what is proven to work. For shooting at a high level that would be developing a good modern ISO stance, grip, learning to aquire a sight picture with both eyes open and learning how to move your feet and stay square to the target. Once you have mastered the fundamentals then if you wanna cross train in stuff that is less effective like weaver, cars, or whatever other waste of time thing you want to do so be it.

Anyone sticking to weaver is just too lazy to learn how to shoot the better way so they make excuses as to why its passable. Its not.

 

[M1911]

Not really, it went from realistic carry guns to unlimited race guns.. Its why another game starts up..IDPA and then the gamesmen came along again..

The Single Stack division is simple single stack 1911s. No compensator. 8 round mags. No optics.

Production is simple production semi-autos, like Glocks, Sigs, CZs, etc. Ben Stoeger won the Nationals one year with a Beretta 92 that was stock, except for maybe a trigger job. No optics. No compensator. 10 round mags.

 

[M1911]

Shooting Cliche Count: 1) Competition was great before the gamerz killed it. 2) Back in the day when I competed the men were men and the mustaches were fantastic. 3) Competition will get you killed in the streetz. 4) C class shooter telling folks how it is. Bonus: C Class from back in the day when the HHF of El Pres was a 6.

 

[Cloverleaf Firearms Group]

This does sound like the shooting version of: 'Back in my day we walked uphill both ways'

 

[Supermoto]

My opinion is that games don't develop the thinking and real skills for carrying a gun. You may improve in marksmanship but there isn't much in tactics and common sense. People confuse things, they say first rule in a gunfight is have a gun but I would add don't let anyone know you have it until it must come out. The game takes away reality... just my opinion and I know just like politics people will disagree. ..vehemently

Edited to add, if you don't want it a game then don't keep score.....

I do agree that USPSA does nothing for tactics. It is purely a test of who can execute the fundamentals at speed and move efficiently. But if you can not do these well in a zero stress environment of a match, how do you expect to do it in a high stress gunfight? This is why I would never take a self defense shooting class from an instructor who's resume does not include success in the competition world. It is really a good way to weed out the fake instructors

 

[Cloverleaf Firearms Group]

My opinion is that games don't develop the thinking and real skills for carrying a gun. You may improve in marksmanship but there isn't much in tactics and common sense. People confuse things, they say first rule in a gunfight is have a gun but I would add don't let anyone know you have it until it must come out. The game takes away reality... just my opinion and I know just like politics people will disagree. ..vehemently

Edited to add, if you don't want it a game then don't keep score.....

Well... There is this:

ron.avery.official

"Please explain to me how, at 3 – 5 yards, in the open, person to person as in a contact with a subject on the street, you are going to be better than a competitive shooter who trains far more than you do, who can move and shoot faster and more accurately than you can, who has the will to win, honed by countless hours of competition and has basic tactical concepts down as well or better than you do?

Do you honestly believe they are going to “cave” when the moment of truth arrives? Do you think they cannot react to subject cues and are going to wait for a start buzzer to get into action? Seriously?

I can give you numerous examples of competitive shooters having to put their skills to the test in real world challenges. Further, I would trust a USPSA or action pistol competitor behind me in any situation because I know their finger won’t be on the trigger with the muzzle pointing in my direction.

Anyone who has competed or watched competitive shooters in USPSA, IPSC, Steel Challenge, 3 Gun Nation and other action shooting sports knows just how fast and accurate these shooters can be, both stationary and on the move. Many attend tactical training courses. A lot of them are cops or military as well with plenty of real world experience.

Competitive shooting, blended with tactical training and tactical thinking and other skills areas, leads to a superior performer who knows just how good he/she is on any given day with the equipment they are carrying.

Jeff Cooper designed man vs man competition as well as the sport of IPSC precisely because he realized how competition honed gunfighting skills.

and this:

[h=2]Gunfighter Moment – Pat McNamara [/h]“Though there is no instant solution to shooting well, I truly believe that the illusive shortcut is in competition. How does one compartmentalize the pressures of a gunfight? Well, you won’t learn to do it during the gunfight. Competition forces pressure on the shooter and it is mostly self-induced. We experience anxiety because of self defeating beliefs. The more one trains under pressure, the more he learns to compartmentalize those pressures.
There are many who believe that competing in the likes of an IPSC match has no tactical relevancy, and it is all just a game.

OK, it’s a game where you are shooting your gun at targets, under time, and with people watching you. You must handle your weapon properly, and follow all rules or be DQed (disqualified). You must discriminate between “shoot” and “no-shoot” targets. You have got to move and make use of cover. You will have to fire from awkward positions. You must find a solution to an ambiguous situation within your skill level.”

I do agree that USPSA does nothing for tactics. It is purely a test of who can execute the fundamentals at speed and move efficiently. But if you can not do these well in a zero stress environment of a match, how do you expect to do it in a high stress gunfight? This is why I would never take a self defense shooting class from an instructor who's resume does not include success in the competition world. It is really a good way to weed out the fake instructors

Agree 100%. I challenge anyone to name a national level 'Tactical Instructor' who has real world combat experience that doesn't advocate competitive shooting on some level. I'll bet a free rep point that there isn't ONE.

 

[drgrant]

My opinion is that games don't develop the thinking and real skills for carrying a gun. You may improve in marksmanship but there isn't much in tactics and common sense. People confuse things, they say first rule in a gunfight is have a gun but I would add don't let anyone know you have it until it must come out. The game takes away reality... just my opinion and I know just like politics people will disagree. ..vehemently

Edited to add, if you don't want it a game then don't keep score.....

Nobody here claimed that gun games were some kinda full on substitute for SD training, lol. Like I said if you don't keep score nobody would show up. The whole point is to see how good/bad i performed during the event.

 

[just jim]

Im glad you used the martial arts analogy...

Its better to practice what is proven to be the best way.. Through competition we found out what is the best way. It was that way with martial arts.. before the early 90s everyone thought jumping around doing the splits was the way to fight. Then we learned that grappling, wrestling, judo, muay thai and western boxing actually worked.. we also learn that everything else was taught by a bunch of clowns trying to bilk people out of their money.

In the same token we used to think that weaver was the way to go. The military still teaches it.. law enforcement still teaches it.. Luckily for both of them, effective handgun shooting isn't really all that necessary for what they do day to day.

As far as learning everything... We all have limited time to develop the skill it takes to compete or function at a high level. Wasting time on things that are not effective or less effective is just that... a waste.

If you want to be good at something you drill and practice the basic concepts of what is proven to work. For shooting at a high level that would be developing a good modern ISO stance, grip, learning to aquire a sight picture with both eyes open and learning how to move your feet and stay square to the target. Once you have mastered the fundamentals then if you wanna cross train in stuff that is less effective like weaver, cars, or whatever other waste of time thing you want to do so be it.

Anyone sticking to weaver is just too lazy to learn how to shoot the better way so they make excuses as to why its passable. Its not.

You had my attention until you last sentence, not sure why you take a conversation and turn it negative but I guess it's your way.

In Japanese history the Samurai would compete to the death to prove who is best and sometimes it only took having a little longer sword to win. They didn't have a competition rule book or safety coordinators and the same place to battle every time.

The fantasy you have that your games that are full of rules and no thinking is what will win a gunfight is just that, a fantasy. Now I am done with the thread because you spoiled a good conversation....

 

[drgrant]

You had my attention until you last sentence, not sure why you take a conversation and turn it negative but I guess it's your way.

In Japanese history the Samurai would compete to the death to prove who is best and sometimes it only took having a little longer sword to win. They didn't have a competition rule book or safety coordinators and the same place to battle every time.

The fantasy you have that your games that are full of rules and no thinking is what will win a gunfight is just that, a fantasy. Now I am done with the thread because you spoiled a good conversation....

Internet argument fail route #65536:

Poster makes dumb statement (about weaver "controlling recoil" or something like that) gets called out on it in serious way, and instead of admitting that he might have been wrong, digs heels in then starts backtracking and digging deeper hole, then inverts conversation/changes subject at end and backs out of thread to save face, blaming the other guy instead of just admitting he was wrong to begin with . I've had to eat crow a few times on this site and frankly I'm better for it.

-Mike

 

[just jim]

Internet argument fail route #65536:

Poster makes dumb statement (about weaver "controlling recoil" or something like that) gets called out on it in serious way, and instead of admitting that he might have been wrong, digs heels in then starts backtracking and digging deeper hole, then inverts conversation/changes subject at end and backs out of thread to save face, blaming the other guy instead of just admitting he was wrong to begin with . I've had to eat crow a few times on this site and frankly I'm better for it.

-Mike

It's all good mike the boys play their games and puff up their chest that theirs is the only way yet in the streets of Chicago gunfights happen every day damn near and they don't care what grip and most don't even wear a holster. They gunfight for real and I doubt a one of them ever played games...

Edited to add, if weaver is no good then start shooting a full house 357 in the game and see which stance you use...

 

[drgrant]

It's all good mike the boys play their games and puff up their chest that theirs is the only way yet in the streets of Chicago gunfights happen every day damn near and they don't care what grip and most don't even wear a holster. They gunfight for real and I doubt a one of them ever played games...

Edited to add, if weaver is no good then start shooting a full house 357 in the game and see which stance you use...

Do you think Jerry uses Weaver? (drops mic)

 

[bill o]

It's all good mike the boys play their games and puff up their chest that theirs is the only way yet in the streets of Chicago gunfights happen every day damn near and they don't care what grip and most don't even wear a holster. They gunfight for real and I doubt a one of them ever played games...

Edited to add, if weaver is no good then start shooting a full house 357 in the game and see which stance you use...

Pretty sure it would still be isosceles...

 

[M1911]

The top pro shooters would use anything that made them better in order to win. If wearing a pink tutu made him faster, Ben Stoeger would wear a pink tutu. If Weaver was better, the top pro shooters would use it. It isn't and they don't.

Bob Vogel is both a top pro shooter and a police officer, including SWAT. Guess how he shoots? Modern Iso.

Perhaps the top revolver shooter in the world is Gerry Miculek. Until recently, he was shooting a 625 in .45 ACP. He shoots in modern Iso.

I have competed with a USPSA shooter who is a retired Special Forces soldier. He was deployed overseas in our recent unpleasantness. Then he was a Federal Air Marshal. He has been there and done that, in the real world. He shoots modern Iso, even with his .357 Sig duty gun with duty loads.

You will learn more and improve as a shooter if you realize that just maybe there are other people who know more than you and that your assumptions might just be wrong.

 

[M1911]

As important as Jeff Cooper was to shooting, the art of shooting has progressed since his time. Many of the things that he espoused have turned out to not be true. His techniques, as important as they were in their time, are no longer state of the art. Unfortunately, Gunsite hasn't kept up with the times.

 

[just jim]

Pretty sure it would still be isosceles...

I don't think you understand what you are watching, all those jams are from shooting isocolese. Gun flops around and won't run right..

 

[drgrant]

I don't think you understand what you are watching, all those jams are from shooting isocolese. Gun flops around and won't run right..

What jams? It's a big ****ing revolver. You know, with lots of recoil? It only has 5 shots in it, he has to reload after 5 shots.

-Mike

 

[just jim]

Do you think Jerry uses Weaver? (drops mic)

Does jerry compete with a full house magnum...?

- - - Updated - - -

What jams? It's a big ****ing revolver. You know, with lots of recoil? It only has 5 shots in it, he has to reload after 5 shots.

-Mike

The desert eagle mike...watch the entire video stance the guy uses the gun must of jammed five times. Oh and thanks for the videos, good stuff and proved I am right...

 

[M1911]

Does jerry compete with a full house magnum...?

Dude, did you watch that video or not? Jerry was shooting a .500 S&W. That recoils far more than .357 would in a 4" K-frame. Look at his arms. He is shooting ISO. See how well he controls the recoil.