Is this a Straw purchase?

[jaypap]

Also depends if his last name was smith or pottsmorganstein. One could be a coincidence.

Or Healy!

 

[houdini]

do not sell it.

 

[42!]

legally I say not a problem, but IANAL.
But is it worth getting caught up in someone else's drama, NFW
Besides, if it turns our bad for them and your name gets caught up in their mess, can you say unsuitable? "showed poor judgement" "should have known something was wrong" is all it would take to kiss that LTC goodby.
If they want to play games, do it through an FFL and protect yourself.

 

[Dadstoys]

legally I say not a problem, but IANAL.
But is it worth getting caught up in someone else's drama, NFW
Besides, if it turns our bad for them and your name gets caught up in their mess, can you say unsuitable? "showed poor judgement" "should have known something was wrong" is all it would take to kiss that LTC goodby.
If they want to play games, do it through an FFL and protect yourself.

Exactly.
People need to keep in mind that someone like Healy or even the ATF don't need to win the case.
They just simply ruin you in the process of proving your innocence .

When my father and I had the FFL we had just one somewhat ham handed attempt at a set up where some guy came in claiming to be the friend of a guy we knew and asking if we might be able to do some "Off the books" sales.
It wasn't just GTFO, it was GTFO NOW.
Later we called the guy who he claimed to know and he had never heard of him.

Stuff like this actually does happen.

 

[Picton]

Exactly.
People need to keep in mind that someone like Healy or even the ATF don't need to win the case.
They just simply ruin you in the process of proving your innocence .

When my father and I had the FFL we had just one somewhat ham handed attempt at a set up where some guy came in claiming to be the friend of a guy we knew and asking if we might be able to do some "Off the books" sales.
It wasn't just GTFO, it was GTFO NOW.
Later we called the guy who he claimed to know and he had never heard of him.

Stuff like this actually does happen.

It sure does, but that example has nothing at all to do with the situation we're discussing.

 

[Dadstoys]

It sure does, but that example has nothing at all to do with the situation we're discussing.

Are you saying that you would go ahead and make a sale even privately if you had even an whisper of doubt it might not be kosher ?
If so , good luck.
I don't relish the thought of spending the rest of my days living in a refrigerator box over a few hundred lousy bucks.
There have been multiple posts here over the years of scammers and possible set up's in the for sales

 

[drgrant]

Paranoia is such a bad disease!

In this case the “downside cost” of moving on is zero.

 

[firestorm]

Are you saying that you would go ahead and make a sale even privately if you had even an whisper of doubt it might not be kosher ?
If so , good luck.
I don't relish the thought of spending the rest of my days living in a refrigerator box over a few hundred lousy bucks.
There have been multiple posts here over the years of scammers and possible set up's in the for sales

Are you saying a private sale to someone with a LTC is not kosher? Not being an FFL there is no straw purchase, under mass law selling to someone with a LTC is 100% fine. What he does with it afterwards is his problem as long as you take 10 seconds to check his LTC is valid before selling and do the transaction through the portal.

It's one thing if he is openly telling you he is buying it for his gang member buddy to do drive bys with, another when nobody says anything sketchy and you are making jumps of logic based on email address names.

 

[Amputee Marksman]

1. Do you propose that OP tell the FFL what's going on?
2. How much will the FFL love the OP if it turns out to be a straw?

The seller can tell the FFL anything they want. All I am saying is that it is an option for the seller. If the FFL does the xfer then the buyer has to fill out a 4473. If the buyer lies on the 4473 it is on them. Of course the seller can walk away and sell it to someone else.

People are reading way too much into this. Do an eFA-10, have an FFL do the xfer, walk away from the sale. It's that simple.

 

[Dadstoys]

Are you saying a private sale to someone with a LTC is not kosher? Not being an FFL there is no straw purchase, under mass law selling to someone with a LTC is 100% fine. What he does with it afterwards is his problem as long as you take 10 seconds to check his LTC is valid before selling and do the transaction through the portal.

It's one thing if he is openly telling you he is buying it for his gang member buddy to do drive bys with, another when nobody says anything sketchy and you are making jumps of logic based on email address names.

It's called entrapment and it's a real thing.
The groundwork has been laid.
It's now been established that you have a person who does not meet the legal requirements attempting to purchase a firearm from you.
You refuse. OK.
Now all the second person has to do is make any kind of hint or statement that they are purchasing it for the person who does not meet the requirements and you sell it to them anyway.
Then it turns out that neither is real and you just got nailed for aiding in a straw purchase sting.

Now you might, MIGHT beat it court after you lose everything you had in the world fighting the unlimited funding of the state.

Or you could just say screw it and walk away if it doesn't pass the smell test.

One thing i have noticed here over the years is that some folks are brave as all f*ck when it's someone else's ass on the line and not their own.

 

[Broc]

It is not a straw purchase if a buyer wants to buy the gun to gift to someone else according to ATF. If you can go through an FFL for peace of mind, then go that route if you can.

This is interesting. I remember other NES threads saying that was a straw purchase, even if the other person had a license that would allow him/her to own that gun.

OP, you had doubts, dont sell it. Someone else will buy it.

 

[fencer]

Call me crazy, but I might have just asked the guy.
It would have been nice if he just said, " Hey my son really wanted to buy this gun but LTC processing has been delayed cuz rona. I'd like to buy it and will gift it to him when he's legal, so he doesn't lose out."
Nothing at all illegal with this. If Dad gives his unlicensed son a firearm, its not your problem. Gifting a gun is not a crime. Many of Greg Derr's custom builds are purchased as gifts or presentation pieces.

 

[42!]

Call me crazy, but I might have just asked the guy.
It would have been nice if he just said, " Hey my son really wanted to buy this gun but LTC processing has been delayed cuz rona. I'd like to buy it and will gift it to him when he's legal, so he doesn't lose out."
Nothing at all illegal with this. If Dad gives his unlicensed son a firearm, its not your problem. Gifting a gun is not a crime. Many of Greg Derr's custom builds are purchased as gifts or presentation pieces.

It being a "gift" makes all the difference, you are allowed to gift someone a firearm

 

[Picton]

It being a "gift" makes all the difference, you are allowed to gift someone a firearm

But for an FTF, why even ask? Asking assumes liability.

Follow the law. It's pretty clear. Check the LTC, make the sale, drive home. You've met your obligation.

 

[42!]

But for an FTF, why even ask? Asking assumes liability.

Follow the law. It's pretty clear. Check the LTC, make the sale, drive home. You've met your obligation.

OP has already posted his concerns, that ship has sailed.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Sometimes a straw is easy to spot. One time I helped a friend of the family, a lady who lost her husband, dispose a bunch of his handguns. He had left a note saying that he wanted certain guns to go to different individuals. One of them came to see me to "claim his gun". He came with another guy and told me that he was waiting for his LTC to be renewed but that I could transfer the gun to his buddy who would later transfer it to him. I told him to come back when he had his LTC. He got pissed and threatened to call the cops. I gave him the number for Boston ATF. He never came back and the gun went to someone else per the widow. Jack.

 

[mousegunfan]

OP has already posted his concerns, that ship has sailed.

OP was making big conclusions. Plus those conclusions still were no violation of any law.

 

[FrugalFannie]

smells like a trap to me.

every time I have gone against my gut, I have regretted it. I no longer go against my gut.

 

[Buck F]

Paranoia is such a bad disease!

Just because you’re not paranoid doesn’t mean they aren’t out to get you

 

[Zappa]

I made a straw purchase a few weeks ago, at Lowes.

 

[mousegunfan]

I made one too.

 

[firestorm]

It's called entrapment and it's a real thing.
The groundwork has been laid.
It's now been established that you have a person who does not meet the legal requirements attempting to purchase a firearm from you.
You refuse. OK.
Now all the second person has to do is make any kind of hint or statement that they are purchasing it for the person who does not meet the requirements and you sell it to them anyway.
Then it turns out that neither is real and you just got nailed for aiding in a straw purchase sting.

Now you might, MIGHT beat it court after you lose everything you had in the world fighting the unlimited funding of the state.

Or you could just say screw it and walk away if it doesn't pass the smell test.

One thing i have noticed here over the years is that some folks are brave as all f*ck when it's someone else's ass on the line and not their own.

Sure and if you are that worried maybe move away from guns and never leave your house again to avoid problems. He didn't say a thing that indicated he was buying it for the other guy, it was a coincidence and a jump to conclusions from the OP. Perhaps they are related, perhaps not. Either way unless he actually says something that leaves you in doubt of the legality then continue with the sale, as I said in the last post. If it was a trap they would have to make some indication that something illegal was going on, nothing like that has happened. It doesn't take being all that brave to follow the law and not worry about whacked out situations that you made up in your head.

 

[drgrant]

It being a "gift" makes all the difference, you are allowed to gift someone a firearm

In the context of the issue presented in this thread it being a gift or not as meaningless because it's really isn't a straw purchase question to begin with.

smells like a trap to me.

every time I have gone against my gut, I have regretted it. I no longer go against my gut.

If I was going to place a wager it's probably nothing harmful just people that don't have a clue of how to buy and sell guns properly. Still even though the risk is probably minimal to nonexistent it's still literally cheaper to just move on to the next guy. I've skipped buyers for reasons far simpler than the OPs. For example, years ago one guy was asking waaaay too many compliance questions about a Glock I was selling and that was the end of that. I noped right out of that BS. Actually I ended up just keeping the gun anyways and was glad that I did. "Dense nipplehead #65536" inadvertently prevented me from making a horrible mistake..

 

[Dennis in MA]

It's called entrapment and it's a real thing.
The groundwork has been laid.
It's now been established that you have a person who does not meet the legal requirements attempting to purchase a firearm from you.
You refuse. OK.
Now all the second person has to do is make any kind of hint or statement that they are purchasing it for the person who does not meet the requirements and you sell it to them anyway.
Then it turns out that neither is real and you just got nailed for aiding in a straw purchase sting.

Now you might, MIGHT beat it court after you lose everything you had in the world fighting the unlimited funding of the state.

Or you could just say screw it and walk away if it doesn't pass the smell test.

One thing i have noticed here over the years is that some folks are brave as all f*ck when it's someone else's ass on the line and not their own.

Ya know, it would be great for the LE community to spend some time doing LE stuff instead of looking for technicalities to jam up regular folk. "Oh, you didn't make the reverse fist-grab before signing that form. That's a major violation and you'll be going to jail for a billion years." I get that straw purchases CAN be a significant deal in the criminal community, but damn. How about going after the shops you KNOW consistently sell guns that are given to others????

Call me crazy, but I might have just asked the guy.
It would have been nice if he just said, " Hey my son really wanted to buy this gun but LTC processing has been delayed cuz rona. I'd like to buy it and will gift it to him when he's legal, so he doesn't lose out."
Nothing at all illegal with this. If Dad gives his unlicensed son a firearm, its not your problem. Gifting a gun is not a crime. Many of Greg Derr's custom builds are purchased as gifts or presentation pieces.

Stop with your sensibility!

smells like a trap to me.

every time I have gone against my gut, I have regretted it. I no longer go against my gut.

This from Texas. Where "You gotta gun? Howbout $600?" "K." is the way of life.

Is this gun rare or common????? I'd be worried a whole lot more about a Glock than a tangent-sight BHP.

 

[fishgutzy]

If the guy is legal, permitted, probably not an issue. either way it is then his responsibility to not transfer until his son/brother is legally permitted.
I buy guns for my wife as gifts. We both have CCW's. I have gifted pistols to my son after he got his permit.

 

[42!]

If the guy is legal, permitted, probably not an issue. either way it is then his responsibility to not transfer until his son/brother is legally permitted.
I buy guns for my wife as gifts. We both have CCW's. I have gifted pistols to my son after he got his permit.

putting aside the OP's situation for a moment.

Gifting a gun is specifically NOT a straw purchase.

 

[Dadstoys]

Sure and if you are that worried maybe move away from guns and never leave your house again to avoid problems. He didn't say a thing that indicated he was buying it for the other guy, it was a coincidence and a jump to conclusions from the OP. Perhaps they are related, perhaps not. Either way unless he actually says something that leaves you in doubt of the legality then continue with the sale, as I said in the last post. If it was a trap they would have to make some indication that something illegal was going on, nothing like that has happened. It doesn't take being all that brave to follow the law and not worry about whacked out situations that you made up in your head.

If you read what the Op wrote he pulled the plug before it got that far.
You do all the potentially sketchy transactions you want .
Knock yourself out.

Like i said in the previous post, people tend to get ballsy as all f*ck when it's someone else's ass on the line.

"Well if i was that FFL, i'd tell the state to GFYS. " He must REALLY not be pro 2A"
"If i was that that restaurant owner i'd tell the BOH to F.O "
"Well I would have opened my range anyway , F*ck the town"
All nice and safe behind their keyboard with zero skin in the game.

It get nauseating at times.

 

[firestorm]

If you read what the Op wrote he pulled the plug before it got that far.
You do all the potentially sketchy transactions you want .
Knock yourself out.

Like i said in the previous post, people tend to get ballsy as all f*ck when it's someone else's ass on the line.

"Well if i was that FFL, i'd tell the state to GFYS. " He must REALLY not be pro 2A"
"If i was that that restaurant owner i'd tell the BOH to F.O "
"Well I would have opened my range anyway , F*ck the town"
All nice and safe behind their keyboard with zero skin in the game.

It get nauseating at times.

So you suggest we run and hide rather than do business? Until he does say something that seems illegal what we have here is paranoia bordering on ridiculous. Call it what you want but it seems like too many are pansies when it comes time to do the most basic things having to do with firearms. "Wouldn't want to sell it to him, what if something bad happens 10 years and 3 sales from now?" "I bet these two are related, and even though there is no way it could be construed to be my problem making this totally legal sale I had better not."

If you are so scared of your own shadow, perhaps take up stamp collecting. Wouldn't want some crazy nonsense situation that has no chance to happen in reality to get you years from now by continuing to have those dangerous gun things.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Years ago ATF mailed tapes labeled: "Don't lie for the other guy" to dealers. It showed examples of attempted straw purchases at gun shops. I still have a "Don't lie for the other guy" mouse pad. Jack.

 

[Dadstoys]

So you suggest we run and hide rather than do business? Until he does say something that seems illegal what we have here is paranoia bordering on ridiculous. Call it what you want but it seems like too many are pansies when it comes time to do the most basic things having to do with firearms. "Wouldn't want to sell it to him, what if something bad happens 10 years and 3 sales from now?" "I bet these two are related, and even though there is no way it could be construed to be my problem making this totally legal sale I had better not."

If you are so scared of your own shadow, perhaps take up stamp collecting. Wouldn't want some crazy nonsense situation that has no chance to happen in reality to get you years from now by continuing to have those dangerous gun things.

You just made my point perfectly .
Thank you internet warrior.
BTW you are talking to an FFL and firearms instructor for probably longer than you've been alive.

Keep talking though .