Home Invasion Hypothetical: What Would You Do?

[MassMark]

No single method is completely fail-proof--alarms, dogs, firearms, and your own health can all fail in high risk situations, though the risk of them all failing at once becomes exponentially less likely the more methods you have. The cops could get into cruiser crashes responding to the panic alarm. There's no telling what could go wrong. So to say an alarm or a dog is not a good idea is simply false--I think they're all a good idea, but the bad idea is relying on only one or two of the methods alone, to the exclusion of others, thinking it will save you.

Alarms are good for one's own warning letting you know the home has been breached, but as for response, bear in mind the hundreds of false alarms to the one real one means that the dispatcher is sending officers to that domestic disturbance down the street if the shift is short handed that day--and even if they can go, they're not breaking any land speed records. I've seen occasions where burglars have given Purina to the growling GSD and proceeded to ransack a home unencumbered. Firearms can malfunction and if you can say with absolute certainty how you'll react under such high stress without expeirienceing it before, you're either a liar or you're extremely naive.

No hypothetical can adequately describe or recreate every nuance and feeling that occurs in these events. If the person is in the basement, I might wait a few seconds at the top of the stairs before proceeding down to asses the threat. Some might disgree and argue that requires and immediate response, but it really depends. Can you descend your stairs with concealment of walls or do your stairs descend into an open basement? Do the door hinges creak loudly or quietly allowing you to make such an assessment silently?

With that said, I agree the very last line of defense when eveything else has either malfunctioned or been ineffective is you and you alone. Not the police, not your dog, not your alarm. And I'm in my home when someone who is armed invades the sanctity of my castle threatening my family with deadly force, I will defend it hell or high water--but will only effect the least amount of force necessary. While I agree it's indeed better to be judged by twelve than carried by six, I certainly don't do a helluva lot of good to my family if they can only visit me on Sundays from 1-3pm. Yeah, they're alive, but what kind of a life is that--for you and your family?

Do what you have to do, but only what you have to do.

[/rant]

That was no rant - fail. What it was though, was some very useful insight - win. Thank you!

To the rest of you 911-ers, I think the trouble with 'hypotheticals' is just that. We'd all like to take a stab at what the best scenario is for us. The problem in my mind with the "funnel defense" is just that - no offense. If it's a single intruder, busting in that final door containing you and your family, I suppose you have a shot, (pardon the pun) - but you've now allowed a threat within shooting distance of you and yours - hope your first shot counts. If it's indeed a home invasion and you have multiple armed shooting threats in your 15x20, then you'd better be adapt at neutralizing multiple threats at 2:18am, in the dark, scared shitless, with your trembling family in the line of fire. Audio exclusion, (myths and facts) aside, there's not much science written on visual exclusion, (different senses and principles) - there's going to be a bright flash on your first shot. Are you going to be able to see to make a second? Beats me. But you have now let your enemy inside your perimeter - hell, you've let them inside your defenses... Hope you can hold them off until the calvary arrives... Again - roulette. Not a game I play in casinos and not one I'm going to play with my family. Will I call 911? Of course, but will I hunker down in my bedroom waiting to see how many people are going to kick in my door and start opening up with my child in the room? Yeah - that would be a no way...

 

[In God We Trust]

Mark brings up a good point. I have had the "pleasure" of doing live fire shooting in a shoothouse at night. Even with ear protection, the blast from a 12 gauge is LOUD and even with a barrel mounted flashlight, the muzzle flash does screw with your vision. This is in a training situation, so in real ife, who knows? With no ear protection or flashlight, shooting a large caliber in a dark, enclosed space is going to be like getting hit with a flashbang grenade.

I have never tried doing it, but I imagine a shootout in this situation with your heart pumping and your kids crying and holding onto your leg would be the definition of chaos.

 

[Kevin_NH]

... the muzzle flash does screw with your vision. This is in a training situation, so in real ife, who knows? With no ear protection or flashlight, shooting a large caliber in a dark, enclosed space is going to be like getting hit with a flashbang grenade.

That's a good argument for a suppressor right there. Drastic reduction in both noise and muzzle flash.

Also a good argument for putting in substantial power failure lighting.

... The problem in my mind with the "funnel defense" is just that - no offense. If it's a single intruder, busting in that final door containing you and your family, I suppose you have a shot, (pardon the pun) - but you've now allowed a threat within shooting distance of you and yours - hope your first shot counts. If it's indeed a home invasion and you have multiple armed shooting threats in your 15x20, then you'd better be adapt at neutralizing multiple threats at 2:18am, in the dark, scared shitless, with your trembling family in the line of fire. Audio exclusion, (myths and facts) aside, there's not much science written on visual exclusion, (different senses and principles) - there's going to be a bright flash on your first shot. Are you going to be able to see to make a second? Beats me. But you have now let your enemy inside your perimeter - hell, you've let them inside your defenses... Hope you can hold them off until the calvary arrives... Again - roulette. Not a game I play in casinos and not one I'm going to play with my family.

Who says you have to wait until they've finished kicking in the bedroom door? If the family is safe in the same room as you, you know anybody on the other side of the door is hostile.

Will I call 911? Of course, but will I hunker down in my bedroom waiting to see how many people are going to kick in my door and start opening up with my child in the room? Yeah - that would be a no way...

I'd be a lot happier hunkered down in the bedroom with family out of the line of fire than trying to clear the house, in the dark, with the family in their individual bedrooms and unknown intruders in the house.

Again, unless you and your family are being personally targeted, a home invader wants your stuff, or maybe an easy rape victim. no random door-kicking crackhead is going to be interested in hanging around for a drawn out firefight with alarms blaring and the police on their way. With few exceptions, the kind of person who will enter a home at night is desperate and stupid, not oblivious and suicidal.

 

[cekim]

Mark brings up a good point. I have had the "pleasure" of doing live fire shooting in a shoothouse at night. Even with ear protection, the blast from a 12 gauge is LOUD and even with a barrel mounted flashlight, the muzzle flash does screw with your vision. This is in a training situation, so in real ife, who knows? With no ear protection or flashlight, shooting a large caliber in a dark, enclosed space is going to be like getting hit with a flashbang grenade.

I have never tried doing it, but I imagine a shootout in this situation with your heart pumping and your kids crying and holding onto your leg would be the definition of chaos.

Just make sure and keep your eyes and electronic ears locked up per MA law...

 

[Bill Nance]

To the rest of you 911-ers, I think the trouble with 'hypotheticals' is just that. We'd all like to take a stab at what the best scenario is for us. The problem in my mind with the "funnel defense" is just that - no offense.

Offense? Offense isn't the point. I'm not interested in taking out a bunker, I'm interested in not dying and not having my family die. Nothing I own is worth more than my life or my family's lives.

If it's a single intruder, busting in that final door containing you and your family, I suppose you have a shot, (pardon the pun) - but you've now allowed a threat within shooting distance of you and yours - hope your first shot counts.

I've cleared the area to my daughter's room, evac'd her to the BR, the door is closed and I have an AR pointed at the door with the family proned out in the closet. (In my case, my wife is on the other side of the room with a pistol also aimed at the door, but let's assume she's in the closet.).

You, the unknown BGs TOUCH that door and you're getting 5 rounds through the door for a start. I have electronic muffs on because that's part of what's on my bedside table. I am prone, a small target. you are not. You are stuck in a hallway with no egress except back or forward. I have concealment , am shooting from the prone and you don't know the layout of the room. If you think that's not a defensive position that will win damn near any realistic scenario of home invasion, much less simple burglary, you are smoking crack.

If it's indeed a home invasion and you have multiple armed shooting threats in your 15x20, then you'd better be adapt at neutralizing multiple threats at 2:18am, in the dark, scared shitless, with your trembling family in the line of fire. Audio exclusion, (myths and facts) aside, there's not much science written on visual exclusion, (different senses and principles) - there's going to be a bright flash on your first shot. Are you going to be able to see to make a second? Beats me. But you have now let your enemy inside your perimeter - hell, you've let them inside your defenses... Hope you can hold them off until the calvary arrives... Again - roulette. Not a game I play in casinos and not one I'm going to play with my family. Will I call 911? Of course, but will I hunker down in my bedroom waiting to see how many people are going to kick in my door and start opening up with my child in the room? Yeah - that would be a no way...

Your scenario is to leave that well defended position to clear a whole house, by yourself, at "2:18 AM, scared shitless, facing "a home invasion and you have multiple armed shooting threats" and you think that's LESS dangerous? Are you serious? Do you even have the remotest idea of how hard it is to clear a house with armed opponents, at night, alone, without getting shot?

And once you're down what then? Well then what happens is whatever the BGs want. You're out of the fight because you did the most dangerous possible thing in an already really BAD situation.

There are lots of scenarios that I specifically train for, with force on force against my wife, in my own house. Some of those involve me having to clear the whole house. If I can't account for the whole family, I will have no choice but to clear the house until I've eliminated all threats or secured everyone in a safe location.

But that's my LAST option, not my first choice. Circumstances are dynamic, which is why I train for multiple scenarios. I also have a small section of wall with a door which I use for my students and use for myself at the range doing live-fire and airsoft.

So I DO train for this, I HAVE received professional level training on how to do it, and I teach the bare-bones of the process. And yes, given a choice, I sure as Hell don't go clearing the house.

It's a monumentally stupid thing to do unless you have no choice. That's not just my opinion, it's the opinion of every single SWAT operator and veteran cop I've ever talked to, and so far as I'm aware, it's the opinion of the best trainers in the business.

 

[FreeWillie]

Although this may sound good if you are caught lying even if the shooting was justified you have lost all credibility.

I didn't say rip your shirt and tell the cops that he ripped it. I said rip it and then be a victim. Let the cops draw their own conclusions.

 

[It Works Everytime]

I'm 6'4', 305 and very male, so I think I would personally have to pass on FreeWillie's advice, although for a female of any age, a torn blouse is a HELL of a lot cheaper than an attorney!

Sage advice... I take the GF to the range whenever I can.

 

[GraftonNH]

Second. if I'd found an intruder in my house, I would respond according to his behavior, not his age. Is he trying to flee? I'd let him flee and call the police. Is he threatening me or my family members? Then I turn to self-defense, possibly using deadly force. It can be very hard to see the intruder's age, as you see him just briefly. He also may be wearing a mask and then you can't see his age for sure. So, for my safety, which I put first, I would see what does he do and not who is him.
Hope it was helpful.

I don't mean to suggest you might be sexist... but...

 

[MassMark]

Offense? Offense isn't the point. I'm not interested in taking out a bunker, I'm interested in not dying and not having my family die. Nothing I own is worth more than my life or my family's lives.



I've cleared the area to my daughter's room, evac'd her to the BR, the door is closed and I have an AR pointed at the door with the family proned out in the closet. (In my case, my wife is on the other side of the room with a pistol also aimed at the door, but let's assume she's in the closet.).

You, the unknown BGs TOUCH that door and you're getting 5 rounds through the door for a start. I have electronic muffs on because that's part of what's on my bedside table. I am prone, a small target. you are not. You are stuck in a hallway with no egress except back or forward. I have concealment , am shooting from the prone and you don't know the layout of the room. If you think that's not a defensive position that will win damn near any realistic scenario of home invasion, much less simple burglary, you are smoking crack.



Your scenario is to leave that well defended position to clear a whole house, by yourself, at "2:18 AM, scared shitless, facing "a home invasion and you have multiple armed shooting threats" and you think that's LESS dangerous? Are you serious? Do you even have the remotest idea of how hard it is to clear a house with armed opponents, at night, alone, without getting shot?

And once you're down what then? Well then what happens is whatever the BGs want. You're out of the fight because you did the most dangerous possible thing in an already really BAD situation.

There are lots of scenarios that I specifically train for, with force on force against my wife, in my own house. Some of those involve me having to clear the whole house. If I can't account for the whole family, I will have no choice but to clear the house until I've eliminated all threats or secured everyone in a safe location.

But that's my LAST option, not my first choice. Circumstances are dynamic, which is why I train for multiple scenarios. I also have a small section of wall with a door which I use for my students and use for myself at the range doing live-fire and airsoft.

So I DO train for this, I HAVE received professional level training on how to do it, and I teach the bare-bones of the process. And yes, given a choice, I sure as Hell don't go clearing the house.

It's a monumentally stupid thing to do unless you have no choice. That's not just my opinion, it's the opinion of every single SWAT operator and veteran cop I've ever talked to, and so far as I'm aware, it's the opinion of the best trainers in the business.

Find me one post where I said I'd clear the whole house by myself - you can't because I didn't. However, I sure as hell will not wait until the threat gets inside with my family...And posting advice from SWAT operators won't necessarily score you points - unless of course you're talking about dog defense. You want to sheepishly wait for 5-0 to arrive and hope you can defend you and yours inside your bedroom all hunkered down, go for it - I hope your choices work out for you.

 

[Rider]

Hi all, I'm no expert on the subject, and there are lots of complex scenarios being discussed here. That said, I took the basic firearms safety course a couple of weeks ago, and they made it pretty clear(at least in MA) that if you shoot someone in your house and they aren't coming after you, you may get a less than sympathetic response from the police when they show up. Sure, you have the right to defend yourself and protect your family, but you cannot shoot someone breaking in to steal something if they are nowhere near your family and don't make any hostile gestures.

Obviously there are lots of complications and variations on the theme, and different folks will argue different points of view, but the Mass training is explicit in stating you can't use deadly force to protect property. The threat needs to be towards you and/or your family. Some of the variations mentioned have explicit bad guys coming for you, others are just 'there's someone in the house'. These are two very different scenarios in different places.

Personally, (to the OP's scenario) I have double deadbolts on every door and basement windows sealed shut. I think that many people get basement creeps, but if your basement is such that you feel compelled to carry whenever you go down there, additional physical security measures are in order.

Being new here, I welcome your setting me straight if anything I've said is misinformed.

 

[Jose]

I know my house better than any invader. I can make my way around it in total darkness if need be.

I'm not going down to the basement, but I will move to a point where I dominate 99% of the ground level and I know where the blind spots are.

The stock police/CCW trainer advice to not clear a house by yourself is a red herring.

I'm not going to clear every room, but like MassMark, I will not be a passive spectator to an unlawful invasion of my home. Not in a million years.

 

[It Works Everytime]

there is no fail safe plan except yourself.

rule no. 1: cardio

^^^^ hahaha... this!
Love that movie.



Sent from Evo4G

 

[Stef]

I don't mean to suggest you might be sexist... but...

I don't mean to suggest you might be an idiot... but...

 

[el duderino]

Straight to the safe room

 

[cekim]

Straight to the safe room

ZOMG, I can't believe you'd post that, it will be front page on the Glob tomorrow after the no-nock.. DUCK!

 

[josh2600]

Exactly.



The serial killer BTK was an experienced alarm installer; his victims got no electronic warning.

Yea and, having been a telephone lineman myself, I wouldn't bet my life on my phone line being functional.

 

[It Works Everytime]

Straight to the safe room

Now that's a panic room!!!

 

[GraftonNH]

I don't mean to suggest you might be an idiot... but...

Thank you for that insightful point of view. I was simply pointing out that not all people who end up in your home that don't belong there are male. I supported the fact that the poster assumed that was the case by highlighting all instances of he, him and his. What would you like to include to support your position?

 

[Queen Bee]

True take a look at that 17 year old girl who broke into a house posted on the forum.

Well i don't know about you but if i heard a break in id stay upstairs on the second floor keeping my gun pointed at the staircase since its the only way up . They can have my tv as long ad they don't come upstairs to where people are living. I picked up that xl50 maglite that has a safety strobe which will blind most people at night. Though i would like that crazy powerful police green strobe.

 

[je25ff]

LadySmith, does this answer your question?

Can we just close the borders already?

To answer the OP's question, my opinion is: If you catch someone in your home and have them at gun point, and they don't comply by moving towards you, I would shoot. If they are in your home and don't comply at gun point, they are there to do harm to you.

 

[Stef]

Thank you for that insightful point of view. I was simply pointing out that not all people who end up in your home that don't belong there are male.

I don't recall reading anywhere in her post where she said that only men commit home invasions. Perhaps you could point out where she did?

I supported the fact that the poster assumed that was the case by highlighting all instances of he, him and his. What would you like to include to support your position?

You're acting like an idiot, what more support do I need?

 

[Standby]

Just do what I did. Post a sign by the front door bell.

Anti-gun, Liberal Democrat, three doors down. Lots of new electronics.

Just point the way to softer targets. A live Gazelle, only has to run faster than the slowest one of the herd.

 

[Mark L]

No single method is completely fail-proof--alarms, dogs, firearms, and your own health can all fail in high risk situations, though the risk of them all failing at once becomes exponentially less likely the more methods you have. The cops could get into cruiser crashes responding to the panic alarm. There's no telling what could go wrong. So to say an alarm or a dog is not a good idea is simply false--I think they're all a good idea, but the bad idea is relying on only one or two of the methods alone, to the exclusion of others, thinking it will save you.

Alarms are good for one's own warning letting you know the home has been breached, but as for response, bear in mind the hundreds of false alarms to the one real one means that the dispatcher is sending officers to that domestic disturbance down the street if the shift is short handed that day--and even if they can go, they're not breaking any land speed records. I've seen occasions where burglars have given Purina to the growling GSD and proceeded to ransack a home unencumbered. Firearms can malfunction and if you can say with absolute certainty how you'll react under such high stress without expeirienceing it before, you're either a liar or you're extremely naive.

No hypothetical can adequately describe or recreate every nuance and feeling that occurs in these events. If the person is in the basement, I might wait a few seconds at the top of the stairs before proceeding down to asses the threat. Some might disgree and argue that requires and immediate response, but it really depends. Can you descend your stairs with concealment of walls or do your stairs descend into an open basement? Do the door hinges creak loudly or quietly allowing you to make such an assessment silently?

With that said, I agree the very last line of defense when eveything else has either malfunctioned or been ineffective is you and you alone. Not the police, not your dog, not your alarm. And I'm in my home when someone who is armed invades the sanctity of my castle threatening my family with deadly force, I will defend it hell or high water--but will only effect the least amount of force necessary. While I agree it's indeed better to be judged by twelve than carried by six, I certainly don't do a helluva lot of good to my family if they can only visit me on Sundays from 1-3pm. Yeah, they're alive, but what kind of a life is that--for you and your family?

Do what you have to do, but only what you have to do.

[/rant]

Excellent post. I am the defense in my home, and I do pay attention to preparedness. The dog is a lab, so not much help there. The family is spread out over three floors (at night), so waiting it out in a funnel defense with the wife in my bedroom isn't going to happen. Could be one of my boys coming up the stairs or down the hall towards the door. So I'm going to find out what that noise is, or go get the family if I know there's a threat. I see this as more protective than offensive, and can't imagine taking it further than necessary.

As far as the original question, stumbling upon an intruder, I'm a strong believer in the force continuum. Do what you have to do, but no more than you have to, with the weapons at your disposal. A psychotic with a machete headed into a child's bedroom at 3 AM evokes a different magnitude of response than a teenager snatching a six-pack from the fridge. The tools I would use? I'm pretty new to firearms, but they'd still be my first choice if I need to confront a situation. I'm not real comfortable with them yet, so they're not immediately accessible (though I've started to carry on weekends). I also keep lots of objects intended to inflict blunt trauma around, at least a few per room, and I practice with them a lot. I'm not much of a blade guy, but there's a few of those around (mostly because my boys don't put their stuff away). When all "else has either malfunctioned or been ineffective" there's me, and I practice a lot to be effective.

 

[GraftonNH]

I don't recall reading anywhere in her post where she said that only men commit home invasions. Perhaps you could point out where she did?


You're acting like an idiot, what more support do I need?

I posted the quote exactly. I'm not putting words in people's mouths, just pointing out how what they said comes across. I called it like I saw it, granted I could have done it more clearly and tactfully up front. Sorry if it offended, I didn't mean it as an insult - only to point out how it was read.

Perhaps next time I disagree with something someone says, I'll try your approach and just call them an idiot.

 

[Stef]

I posted the quote exactly.

And nothing you quoted proves that Yelena believes only men commit home invasions.

I'm not putting words in people's mouths, just pointing out how what they said comes across.

You're making a grand assumption about what a person believes based on a single post.

Perhaps next time I disagree with something someone says, I'll try your approach and just call them an idiot.

If you think they're being in idiot, that's the perfect response.

Keep digging that hole.

 

[joeendris]

One Lab/Pitt mix for the "early warning". Safe is next to my bed. My bedroom is at the top of the stairs...the only way up to me or my kids. THAT in itself is a fatal funnel for any illegal entry. If they're in the basement, my dog will let me know.

mark056: While, I firmly believe in using lethal force as a last resort, an ancillary to this is make sure that you have the mindset to employ lethal force. Not everyone can kill. If you purchase a firearm for strictly defensive purposes then you must make that commitment. One doesn't threaten with or display a firearm unless one is prepared to use it. It matters not the age or other demographics of the threat. One engages the threat to neutralize it, not to wound. No warning shots either.

This...

Martha and her 'tards don't like the castle doctrine. It promotes self-help. She doesn't want you thinking for yourself. She does want to prosecute you any chance she can:

MGL Chapter 278, Section 8A. In the prosecution of a person who is an occupant of a dwelling charged with killing or injuring one who was unlawfully in said dwelling, it shall be a defense that the occupant was in his dwelling at the time of the offense and that he acted in the reasonable belief that the person unlawfully in said dwelling was about to inflict great bodily injury or death upon said occupant or upon another person lawfully in said dwelling, and that said occupant used reasonable means to defend himself or such other person lawfully in said dwelling. There shall be no duty on said occupant to retreat from such person unlawfully in said dwelling.

Because, to this douchebag, apparently it's not good enough that my daughters, sons, wife, and myself were threatened. Apparently the gangbanger is to be afforded more rights than I am. I'm now in need of hiring a lawyer for thousands of dollars. If I don't break the bank, and am found "not guilty" (of what, I'm still not sure), my world is now destroyed and marred because this state won't even back me up...Martha would rather go after me.

When are the next elections?

 

[namedpipes]

KIDS! KNOCK IT OFF! BOTH OF YOU GO TO YOUR ROOMS!

 

[joeendris]

I'm innocent this time. First time for everything, eh?

 

[Business]

I would not shoot unless there was absolutely, positively, no alternative, eg; run for safety. Get out of harms way and call 911. If I found myself in a position where I had no choice, of course I would shoot.

I will never run for saftey in my own home. somebody who breaks into my home needs to run for saftey when I discover them in my home.

 

[dancha84]

i love when people say they would only defend themselfs if theres no where to run. first of all, i am NOT running from my own home.