Do you engage an active shooter?

[Al-Jim19]

Just to stir the pot...
Burning building,child hanging out of window,what do you do?
Young woman caught in an apparent riptide,what do you do?
Elderly man being mauled by a large dog,what do you do?

Burning building: if it looks like I can help without too great of a risk I probably help.
Riptide: I can’t swim a stroke so I’m no help.
Old dude: shoot the dog? Scare it off?

 

[enbloc]

See, I don't get the "Burning Building vs. Active Shooter" trade off.
An untrained civilian running into a burning building is just as likely not to survive the attempt, as a non-LEO strategically engaging an active shooter.

Oh, and the burning building may be empty...

 

[v37v]

See, I don't get the "Burning Building vs. Active Shooter" trade off.
An untrained civilian running into a burning building is just as likely not to survive the attempt, as a non-LEO strategically engaging an active shooter.

Oh, and the burning building may be empty...

Running into the building would be akin to blindly charging the shooter,brave,but likely to end in death.The safest thing to do would be to run from the building,burning debris may fall on you, or you may be forced to try to catch the child,possibly causing permanent injury.
Diving into the ocean to save someone possibly caught in a riptide will very likely end in your demise,master swimmer or not,the panicked person will drag you down. Running isn't needed,you're safe on shore.
Dog attack,any attempt to help puts your well-being at risk,best to run,if your own hide is most valuable.
Active shooter,if you are with your kids,it's your primary duty to protect them,you helped create them,or made an oath to protect them,they come first,before anyone else,strangers,your own life,anyone.If one of your own falls because you didn't put them first and only,you could never recover.
Take your own children out of the equation,they aren't present,but other children are,is anyone pre-programming themselves to run no matter what the situation is?

 

[Spanz]

riptide.... try to get the swimmer to swim parallel to the shore.

you realize that they now suggest you NOT swim parallel to the riptide! it will just tire you out. they say ride the riptide until it dissipates, then swim back to shore.

 

[Matt_SERE]

you realize that they now suggest you NOT swim parallel to the riptide! it will just tire you out. they say ride the riptide until it dissipates, then swim back to shore.

I think that would scare even the strongest willed person as they float backwards out in to the ocean. I have heard that in theory before. Hmmm.

 

[Warm_Garand]

I recently attended Sig Academy's TDM CAPS class.
Tactical Decision Making with CAPS
The instructor advised that LEO during active shooter events will not hesitate to engage anyone holding a gun.
If anyone gets stuck in this kind of mess, reholster ASAP.

I would very much like to attend the course at SIG Academy.

The class at MFS is a real good introduction at a $75 price point (with the Black Friday discount).

The bonehead mistakes you make in real-time simulation (which the simulation is absolutely designed to provoke)--the retarded unexamined assumptions you indulge--experiencing these things in split-second instinctive decision-making loops is serioiusly revealing. I have recommended the class to everyone I know who owns a gun, and bought several seats as Christmas gifts.

 

[jhblaze1]

I'm out. Unless he's in my way of escape I'm just getting the F out. Same answer whether I'm with my family or by myself...if I'm with them then getting them out safely is all I care about. If I'm by myself, continuing to be around to watch my kids grow up is all I care about. I have 0 interest in potentially getting killed or financially destroyed to save some liberal a**h***'s life who votes to disarm me. Sorry, not sorry.

Anyone else is on their own. Anyone else could make the decision to take responsibility for their own safety and get a gun. Not my fault or problem if they choose not to.

I'd say I wished I had a more noble and heroic answer, but frankly I don't and I'm not sorry about it.

 

[Yosemite Sam]

Doesn’t everybody have the choice to carry to protect themselves?
I guess the responsible thing to do would be to have the wife have a CCW to protect herself and child when packing daddy isn’t with her!

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

you realize that they now suggest you NOT swim parallel to the riptide! it will just tire you out. they say ride the riptide until it dissipates, then swim back to shore.

Woah...really? I've hit nasty rip tide before and it brought me out like 50 yards in under 5 seconds. I didn't even know what was happening (never heard of it at the time), but the people at the shore line turned to ants in an instant. It most definitely would have been worse had I not swam out of the stream. Such an odd sensation to be swimming one direction and moving another, btw. I think I'd rather fight it by swimming parallel and then back float once out while regaining energy to swim back.

But to OP's point: I'll only engage if my life or the life of someone I'm with is under obvious and immediate threat. In a panic situation where live fire is sounding off, there's too high a probability of an accident in terms of mistaken identity for both you, holding a gun, some random person fleeing, and/or the police.

 

[Laderbuilt]

You might be right. Maybe I would intervene but I am not sure. To be honest I won’t know what I’ll do till I’m tested. ( I pray I am never tested). I could lock up and take no action, I could go screaming and running for an exit. I try to train my inner self as best I can so hopefully I can do the right thing at the right time.

I think a lot about what if my wife and son went to the store and this happened and I wasn’t with them I would hope one of us would help them but somehow know that in the end that no one would.
I am aware of what little faith I have in my fellow man and it saddens me.
I try to be a better person,

My first thought was " Nah.. Imma grab the biggest wide screen in da sto. Use dat chit for cover and git my white trash ass outta there"

Then I thought, no, I have that Roland kids cell number.. I am gonna call his ass. " Hey Clover kid... it's fencer.. I am at the Walmart and some dude with a mini gun is tearing the place up! Come quick! No, I am not at the ammo case... I am at the plus sized lingerie..don't judge me. It's purely a comfort thing"
And then Stu comes tactical rolling into view.. and pew pew. Double taps the angry shooter in the forehead.

Truth is, I really would have a hard time watching innocent people get shot. And although I tell myself I wouldn't, have posted that I wouldn't and you shouldn't, I just would hate looking at myself in the mirror everyday if had to live with knowing I could have prevented a death.
As Dr. Grant says, it all depends on the circumstances.
There is a huge difference between running towards the sound of gunfire, and watching people getting shot right in front of you. And admittedly, I am sure all of us have some split second ranking system they would apply. Mother with three kids? Engage. Fat kid with a man bun and a Bernie Tshirt?

I think that all of us are smart enough to know we probably shouldn't, but even those that have posted " Nope, no way. Ain't happening", would have a hard time watching the local high school girls softball team be killed.
Let's hope none of us ever finds out what we would do.

I am not always successful.

 

[MFSP101]

Think about this scenario every time I walk into any building. If it ever happens hope I can tell you how it turned out. And I’m not dropping g the soap.

 

[tuna]

I live in Massachusetts.

The odds are high that the victims I’m saving aren’t worth the cost of a bullet, to say nothing of the legal fees I’d face.

I melt out the back door if I’m not in danger.

If my family is in danger I don’t care about future consequences.

At least, that’s my plan. I could be a hero when tested. But I think the internet has enough heroes, I’m willing to let my liberal neighbors bleed out.

 

[Bonesinium]

Doesn’t everybody have the choice to carry to protect themselves?

No. Not everybody does. Government has done a damn fine job of ensuring that. Most people cannot legally carry in much of the country even if they wanted to. MA, for example, makes it difficult to impossible for almost everybody who isn’t a resident from carrying.

 

[TheMick]

I’m getting out of dodge as soon as possible as quick as possible. If the shooter is in my way I would engage.

You people are on your own, not my fault y’all ain’t prepared.

 

[Knob Creek]

Get out. If you can't gt out hide. If you can't hide, fight back.

 

[Spanz]

Woah...really? I've hit nasty rip tide before and it brought me out like 50 yards in under 5 seconds. I didn't even know what was happening (never heard of it at the time), but the people at the shore line turned to ants in an instant. It most definitely would have been worse had I not swam out of the stream. Such an odd sensation to be swimming one direction and moving another, btw. I think I'd rather fight it by swimming parallel and then back float once out while regaining energy to swim back.

hmmmm....saw this on TV...a life guard was interviewed and gave her "new way" to do it.

But...looking online...say at the NOAA site:

"The best escape is to turn sideways to the shore, and wade or swim until you are out of the rip current. Then move back toward shore at an angle away from the rush of water. The NOAA rip current sign depicts this method of escape. However, in in a chaotic situation, it is often difficult to tell which way to swim. An alternate way of thinking about it would be to "swim towards the breaking waves" This is depicted by the green arrows on the NOAA rip current sign.

If you can float, you might even just relax and "go with the flow." Rip currents do not usually go out very far. Let the rip current carry you until it slows down a short distance offshore. Then swim toward the beach away from the rip current (again you can think of it as swimming toward the breaking waves). "

so they are saying there are two ways. The "best" is to swim parallel to shore, then swim back in when out of it. But you can also "ride out" the rip and then swim back in.

 

[Queen Bee]

Here's my problem: I hear shooting and the ensuing screaming. I duck for cover, then I see the perp right in front of me shooting. I take him out only to find that I just killed the good guy with the gun who was shooting at the real perp.

Such a plot twist! Love it.

I guess this would be a huge difference here in MA, because i feel i would get less harrassment by the state if i did choose to intervene, being a female, most would look at me differently for trying to protect life even in court.

With that said, if i found myself in a mass shooting, with some guy with a rifle, in sight regardless of distance my glock 19 might not be enough, but 30 rounds of 9mm will be flying toward him.

If all i hear are gunshots in the distance on the other side of a mall, (side question, who actually goes to malls these days...internet) i would keep my ccw concealed, while helping people evacuate. Not just running away and leaving children or others to find their own way out. And when the shooter got closer, i would take a barricade defense and my pistol rested on something so i could take an accurate shot further.


But these are my opinions.

 

[fencer]

I'm fairly sure you'd be ALL SET. Funny story though... I'm in active shooter training, and we did that EXACT scenario. Lol

As a civilian, there is so much to consider. But I am glad that they are making sure you guys have the right training, and if my kid went there, I would feel a whole lot better knowing you were around.
Colleges are the ultimate soft target. A shooter knows damn well it is a gun free zone. Having a well trained, capable, response available is the only thing that makes any sense. But still public schools resist having any armed personnel on site.
I have to applaud our little town for the action they took after Parkland. Our police station is literally next door to the middle/senior high school, but they still station an on duty officer at the school everyday. They don't open the doors unless he is at his post. They knew that paying armed security would be met with resistance. There was no fanfair, no public debate. It's the same cop, everyday, and he is not some rookie. I know the guy and he is a good man. There is no doubt in my mind he would do the right thing.

 

[fencer]

The odds are high that the victims I’m saving aren’t worth the cost of a bullet, to say nothing of the legal fees I’d face.

I melt out the back door if I’m not in danger.

At least, that’s my plan. I could be a hero when tested. But I think the internet has enough heroes, I’m willing to let my liberal neighbors bleed out.

Yeah.. I don't buy it. I have read your posts, and I just don't believe you would walk away if you saw women and children being shot. You might be telling yourself that you are crazy the whole time, cursing yourself for getting involved, but if it was happening right in front of you, I am betting you would do what had to be done.
Again, I think it really depends on the circumstances. If I was at the back of the store, and heard gunfire but couldn't see what was happening, I would probably just make my way out. If you are at the registers checking out and the guy walks in right in front of you and starts shooting it would be a lot harder decision.
It really is a comment on how screwed up our state is that you have to chose between potentially saving lives and ruining your own life and that of your family. Especially when those in power have the luxury of having an armed security detail with them whenever they are in public.

 

[Cambridge]

It's an interesting question that my wife asked me last night. Her question is if I'm in a Walmart and someone starts shooting, what would I do? Lots of ways to look at this.

1. If my wife/family is with me I'm with them out the back door.

2. If I'm by myself I honestly don't have an answer. Do I save myself or engage. I guess it depends on where the shooter is in relation to where I am. Overall if I have no choice I'll engage. If I have a choice, I'm still not sure what I'd do.

Got me thinking though. If you pull your CCW bystanders might think your one of the shooters which could lead to all other problems. Also, if a LE sees you they might identify you as the shooter and start sending lead your way.

This could be a problem as well if you're engaged in a firefight with the bad guy. If LEs see you first firing rounds, they are going to think you're the shooter. Then you most likely end up dead.

SO my answer to her was "I don't know". For some reason that bothers me some.

What's your thoughts?

If your in a store, building, boat or any enclosed space and there is an active shooter and your with your family seek the Exit. If on the way out...and your family is safe and you can tell by the round noise/cadence that it’s a pistol he/she is firing. At that moment you will do what you were born to do...

 

[AntiHippie]

you realize that they now suggest you NOT swim parallel to the riptide! it will just tire you out. they say ride the riptide until it dissipates, then swim back to shore.

Perpendicular to it, once the energy dissipates. Rest of the breaks will likely carry you back to the beach. Ocean currents don’t ‘like’ getting funneled into rip currents, running from the shore to outside the surf zone. They generally run parallel to shore as soon as they clear the cut in the shoal creating the rip.

(This is my profession - I’m a Surfman, I’ll take a kid caught in a rip over an active shooter ANY day. I know where the current will release me, the breaks will push me back ashore, and the response time of my Motor Lifeboat.)

 

[MassachussettsMosinNagant]

As opposed to what? Standing there and dying? Letting your wife get popped executioner style while your daughter watches? I mean, what coward wouldn't engage the shooter if they had a gun. I'd hate to see that Prius driving, Panera bread eating blade.

If you mean you have a clear escape in a large area, no family with you to save then that makes it a moral dilhema. Do I risk my life to save strangers. It varies person to person. And who knows what i'd do in the situation. But I'd like to think i'm man enough to go at least try to save the day.

Sad part is, cops will come and shoot you. Just think about it. Cop walks in, was told their was an armed shooter, sees you with your gun dead bodies everywhere. You're getting popped. And you were the hero. that's a scary reality. Have to be sure you have your hands up and a few witnesses ready to tell the truth.


Good question actually. their is far more variables then I thought. .

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I told my wife that if I ever had to use my gun to defend us In a public place that she’ll probably end up a widow.

I got a clean bill of health from the MD today. My response was "good, I don't have to go home and teach my wife how to use the TV remote".

One has to think of these secondary effects of ending up dead.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

garnishes every cent you make from now until you die....

The law limits garnishments to something like 25%, not every cent. But, you still better hope you can survive in the underground economy or have made yourself judgment proof.

 

[miniion]

Woah...really? I've hit nasty rip tide before and it brought me out like 50 yards in under 5 seconds. I didn't even know what was happening (never heard of it at the time), but the people at the shore line turned to ants in an instant. It most definitely would have been worse had I not swam out of the stream. Such an odd sensation to be swimming one direction and moving another, btw. I think I'd rather fight it by swimming parallel and then back float once out while regaining energy to swim back.

But to OP's point: I'll only engage if my life or the life of someone I'm with is under obvious and immediate threat. In a panic situation where live fire is sounding off, there's too high a probability of an accident in terms of mistaken identity for both you, holding a gun, some random person fleeing, and/or the police.

Try scuba or snorkeling, at least. Currents are no joke.

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

Try scuba or snorkeling, at least. Currents are no joke.

Went snorkeling a few places in Caribbean and Adaman Sea. Underwater currents were strong in both, and combined with tide sway, I managed to ding a piece a coral at one location. Had a nice chunk torn out of my foot (went through the fin), but on the up shot, I just barely missed a group of urchin. Maybe I should just stay away from anything water related.