Call for ban on 'bump stocks'

[Picton]

The NRA's move here isn't winning them any converts. That's fantasy. The lines were dug long before this week. Anyone not in a trench is too clueless to matter, but for every neutral convert there are 5 diehard antis who smell blood in the water.

And what value does the NRA get from basically admitting that the equipment shared some of the blame for the 59 lives? How does that position help them when the next shooting happens? What did we all stand to lose that wasn't just voluntarily sacrificed by the NRA, 3/4 of this forum, and every Fudd from Maine to California?

You missed my question, though I asked it poorly. It wasn’t “dont you see how this makes more people love the NRA?” It was “given a losing battle, is it better to appear to be out of touch, or is it better to be reasonable?”

Too, I don’t think it’s necessarily true that his rate of fire didn’t contribute to more deaths. I think you can make a strong argument that it might have. Remember, just because the other side is wrong most of the time, doesn’t mean it’s wrong all the time.

 

[not new guy]

The only argument I can see in support of the NRA's move is saying that it's analogous to intentionally torching a stretch of woods or a field as a firebreak. In other words, they did it to keep bills with worse restrictions from ever having to be filed. That's stupid though, because the antis are going ahead with them anyway, both at the federal level and at the state level. At the federal level we would expect the (R controlled) branches to hold the line at bumpfires at least anyway, or maybe even try to get something in return. The states are all obviously going to follow their respective party lines, with the legislators in a place like MA not giving a single shit about the NRA's appeal to BATFE.

 

[not new guy]

You missed my question, though I asked it poorly. It wasn’t “dont you see how this makes more people love the NRA?” It was “given a losing battle, is it better to appear to be out of touch, or is it better to be reasonable?”

Too, I don’t think it’s necessarily true that his rate of fire didn’t contribute to more deaths. I think you can make a strong argument that it might have. Remember, just because the other side is wrong most of the time, doesn’t mean it’s wrong all the time.

I get it, and I get the value of appearing reasonable, I just don't like how they went about it. Don't beg BATFE to reconsider, say that you might support reasonable legislation restricting new sales of bump fire stocks, and maybe propose tacking it on to the hearing protection act. They were trying to hard to seize the moment and likely ended up with more newly pissed off gun owners than newly converted antis.

 

[wahsben]

99% of Americans do not know or care what the difference is between a full auto machine gun, a submachine gun, a bump fired machine gun, or a semi automatic rifle that looks like just like a machine gun.

2nd amendment rights don't get mindshare based on nerdy gun enthusiast arguments. The technical details of what is a automatic rifle versus are not just irrelevant, they are an impediment to communicating with people who don't want to hear that level of detail. It is best not to discuss technical definitions at all in materials that communicate with the public. That is a sign you're losing the argument. It is an emotional debate alone that sways people in this area. "Why do you want to leave me unable to defend my family?" should be the topic of discussion, not "you see an Ar15 is not really a machine gun". If you're arguing about that you've lost already.

They'll say you don't need a fully automatic or semi-automatic to defend your family. They should not be dictating what people can and can't have and what people use to defend themselves since you never know what you're going to face. Sadly they keep getting away with dictating our rights away and even worse gun owners and so called gun rights organizations that won't stand up to them which enables and empowers them to go for more restrictions.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Although I personally have no need/use for a bump-fire stock, I don't support banning something that I'm not interested in. The 2nd A is the 2nd A!

The discussion here reminds me of something that is right to the point.

Quotation from Pastor Martin Niemöller.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

[Uzi2]

Honest question.

Say this decision by the NRA makes a neutral or two feel more favorable about guns. Hell, say even a mild anti or two grudgingly admits the NRA is “right this time.”

Do you not see how that kind of PR has value for the NRA? Especially when the ban was GOING TO be a losing battle?

You fight it, you look like a bunch of reactionaries, and you lose anyway.. You go with the ban, you still lose, but you appear more reasonable. How is that not the better outcome?

That's like asking to be shot by 6 men at your firing squad rather than seven.

Where the **** did you ever get or learn the idea that people other than those who commit crimes should bear the punishment or any other type of retribution from government as result of the criminal actions of one individual?

Government's job is to protect, and defend the rights of the people, NOT whittle away each and every one of them at every opportunity.

A nation of law, not a nation of touchy feely whims!!! This isn't a battle for people's popularity, this a battle as to whether
people are going to live without an intrusive dictatorial government breathing down their necks at every turn of their lives.

 

[Dadstoys]

There is no "Compromise "
There will never be a "Compromise "
Not now not ever.
If anyone thinks so , take a run at the wall, head down.
There is them taking and us losing.
The objective is a crystal clear and always has been , take it all.
If your doing the mental gymnastics that tell you if we give in just this one time , they will stop or back up, turn in your f*cking guns right now and save yourself the trouble of them having to come to your door for them.
THERE IS NO "COMPROMISE"

 

[Mountain]

I really couldn't give a rat's @ss over bumpfire stocks.

But I do care about those who do give a rat's @ss.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Imagine you have a squad of 8 men and are surrounded on three sides by hundreds of enemy troops.

Do you retreat through the open side, or start a firefight you know you will lose to prove you never willingly give ground?

That is what the NRA is facing. If it picks this battle it WILL lose. Period. Then, the enemy will say "see, we can and did beat the NRA once and can do it again, if only you donate".

 

[namedpipes]

I just don't understand why any left wingnut wants to ban a product that reduces the effectiveness of a rifle?

 

[Dadstoys]

Imagine you have a squad of 8 men and are surrounded on three sides by hundreds of enemy troops.

Do you retreat through the open side, or start a firefight you know you will lose to prove you never willingly give ground?

That is what the NRA is facing. If it picks this batter, it WILL lose. Period. Then, the enemy will say "see, we can and did beat the NRA once and can do it again, if only you donate".

And they won't say that now?

 

[drgrant]

Imagine you have a squad of 8 men and are surrounded on three sides by hundreds of enemy troops.

Do you retreat through the open side, or start a firefight you know you will lose to prove you never willingly give ground?

That is what the NRA is facing. If it picks this batter, it WILL lose. Period. Then, the enemy will say "see, we can and did beat the NRA once and can do it again, if only you donate".

I don't dispute that I just think the way they are doing it is completely wrong. They're playing into the antis hands by saying (insert piece of gun related hardware is bad for society) and we think the ATF should do something about it. " The mere act of doing that, in that particular manner- that shits on the bedrock of everything we've been trying to tell people for decades- that a piece of plastic/steel/whatever is not inherently evil. Now the NRA, a group who is supposed to represent our interests, is doing something exactly contradictory to that. This allows the antis to control the narrative- so expect a deluge of more shit WRT "rate of fire" "magazines" etc. Watch- this stupidity is going to lay the groundwork for more problems.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

I just don't understand why any left wingnut wants to ban a product that reduces the effectiveness of a rifle?

Because 65% of this country is dumber than a box of rocks, that's why. The only reason everything isn't banned by these mouth breathers is because some of them happen to own guns and honestly, most of the time, many of them are ambivalent.

Every time I start hearing some non, or moonbat, or even some republicans- talking about this incident, my brain starts to hurt from the stupidity.

Worse yet, now we have the NRA.... doubling down on that VERY SAME BRAND of stupidity. "Bump stocks are "bad" and ought to be regulated like a machine gun" or whatever the **** the party line is.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

I really couldn't give a rat's @ss over bumpfire stocks.

I don't either, and honestly when I first saw the slidefire come out, the first thing I thought was "Nothing good is going to come out of this. Either the feds are going to ban it administratively or someone is going to do something stupid with it, in between malicious things and dangerous but unintentional ones... like sending bullets off the range, etc. " I'm of the mind that its in the category of "just because it's legal to do something stupid, doesn't mean you should actually do it". That said I would never, in a million years, call for a "ban" on such a device.

That said, the problem is not the bumpfire stocks. The problem is if this narrative continues, it makes it easier for antis to demonize inanimate objects like stocks or magazines that have little or nothing to do with the outcome of a spree shooting- so that the next time it happens, bam, automatic public suck job for the next feature ban, AWB, etc. THAT is the problem.

-Mike

 

[enbloc]

.

 

[Picton]

That's like asking to be shot by 6 men at your firing squad rather than seven.

Where the **** did you ever get or learn the idea that people other than those who commit crimes should bear the punishment or any other type of retribution from government as result of the criminal actions of one individual?

Government's job is to protect, and defend the rights of the people, NOT whittle away each and every one of them at every opportunity.

A nation of law, not a nation of touchy feely whims!!! This isn't a battle for people's popularity, this a battle as to whether
people are going to live without an intrusive dictatorial government breathing down their necks at every turn of their lives.

Don’t look now, but we lost that battle, in spades, over the past hundred years or so.

The question isn’t “are we going to live with a dictatorial government.” It’s “how can we preserve what we have most wisely.”

Wake up and pay attention. We’re not living in Shouldsville or Idealville. We’re living in the real world. There are times, in that real world, that victory is impossible, and fighting in favor of bumpfire stocks after Las Vegas, when banning them is literally the only issue that the GOP and the Dems are agreeing on, is an unwise choice.

 

[Individualist]

Circle the wagons time, IMO

Yep.

 

[Uzi2]

Don’t look now, but we lost that battle, in spades, over the past hundred years or so.

The question isn’t “are we going to live with a dictatorial government.” It’s “how can we preserve what we have most wisely.”

Wake up and pay attention. We’re not living in Shouldsville or Idealville. We’re living in the real world. There are times, in that real world, that victory is impossible, and fighting in favor of bumpfire stocks after Las Vegas, when banning them is literally the only issue that the GOP and the Dems are agreeing on, is an unwise choice.

Please answer the question.

 

[E.Stoner]

Circle the wagons time, IMO

Yup.

 

[Picton]

Y

Please answer the question.

Why bother? You won’t consider the answer acceptable; you’ve already made that clear.

I’ve stopped posting in many threads here because these days NES just devolves into a bunch of pissy people saying bitter things to each other. I’ve got better things to do. Like reload.

 

[snax]

Love them, hate them whatever. We can argue all day on the chipping away the 2A if they take them away.

I personally don't care for them, but the first time I saw them, I had a feeling "something" would happen, but my feeling was that it would be a group of guys f'ing themselves up being careless with them. If I were to guess if there was a mass shooting with one, I would more expect it to be gang bangers in Chicago or Detroit, not what this nutcase did

 

[not new guy]

Imagine you have a squad of 8 men and are surrounded on three sides by hundreds of enemy troops.

Do you retreat through the open side, or start a firefight you know you will lose to prove you never willingly give ground?

That is what the NRA is facing. If it picks this batter, it WILL lose. Period. Then, the enemy will say "see, we can and did beat the NRA once and can do it again, if only you donate".

This isn’t pick or don’t pick a battle, or retreat, all they had to do was keep their mouth shut, aside from condemning the shooter of course and reminding everyone that people kill people. Deal with the tactics during the legislative hearings.

 

[JJ4]

We all seem to think this is a fight with the antis. It's not. It's a fight for the "nons". The nons are people who don't give a shit about guns one way or another except when it shows up in the news - like now. The nons, across the spectrum, generally feel people should retain their rights. Why do you think all the antis focus on spewing "common sense" bullshit? Because the nons don't know any better and their market research shows them that common sense is a good thing to go for. The nons are have a general idea that antis want to ban guns and that the NRA wants to preserve gun rights - and in most places (not MA), they generally side on "less government is better". But here the PR battle is lost, if the NRA digs in their heals here, the nons are going to look at them like extreme nutcases and start to side with the antis.


Edit to add: The concert in Vegas is an "ideal" target for an anti-gun crusader. Vegas is a tourist town and event like this had people from every state and from all over the world. So the "reach" of the victims is much further than any of the other recent mass murders.

 

[not new guy]

They don’t have to dig in, they just need to stay off their knees. Let the politicians take the bump stocks if they must.

 

[EJFudd]

I've got the site opened in another tab and there's still 6 pages of slidefires for sale. Don't know where you're looking but the sales and bidding is still strong. BTW your link is fail.

Maybe they rescinded the decision? There was a link at the top of their page with the announcement and it seems to be gone now.

Site hack possibly? Anyway, glad to see the craziness back on.

Gunbroker is definitely taking down the bump fire stock auctions. They are down to just one page now depending on how you search. I'm watching the numbers as they slowly go down. Guess it just takes them a lot of time to void out that many auctions. Not like E-Bay which can wipe out auctions in a flash when it wants to.

 

[buck shot in the woods]

So Mizz witch Feinstein will introduce or sneak this bill, but the wording relates to confiscation .....of all semi automatics.

https://www.congress.gov/congressional-record/2017/10/05/senate-section/article/S6351-1

ALB17865 S.L.C.


S. ll
To prohibit the possession or transfer of certain firearm accessories, and
for other purposes.
IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES
llllllllll
llllllllll introduced the following bill; which was read twice


115TH CONGRESS1ST SESSION

123456789

and referred to the Committee on llllllllll
A BILL
To prohibit the possession or transfer of certain firearmaccessories, and for other purposes.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representa-tives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This Act may be cited as the ‘‘Automatic GunfirePrevention Act’’.
SEC. 2. PROHIBITION ON POSSESSION OF CERTAIN FIRE-ARM ACCESSORIES.
Chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, is amend-ed—



ALB17865 S.L.C.2


123456789
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20

(1) in section 922, by inserting after subsection(u) the following:
‘‘(v)(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), on andafter the date that is 180 days after the date of enactmentof this subsection, it shall be unlawful for any person toimport, sell, manufacture, transfer, or possess, in or af-fecting interstate or foreign commerce, a trigger crank,a bump-fire device, or any part, combination of parts,component, device, attachment, or accessory that is de-signed or functions to accelerate the rate of fire of a semi-automatic rifle but not convert the semiautomatic rifleinto a machinegun.
‘‘(2) This subsection does not apply with respect tothe importation for, manufacture for, sale to, transfer to,or possession by or under the authority of, the UnitedStates or any department or agency thereof or a State,or a department, agency, or political subdivision thereof.’’;and
(2) in section 924(a)(2), by striking ‘‘, or (o)’’and inserting ‘‘(o), or (v)’’.


I don't think many people no whats in the bill.....it shall be unlawful for any person to import, sell, manufacture, transfer, or possess, in or af- fecting interstate or foreign commerce, a trigger crank, a bump-fire device, or any part, combination of parts, component, device, attachment, or accessory that is de- signed or functions to accelerate the rate of fire of a semi- automatic rifle but not convert the semiautomatic rifle into a machinegun. See what I'm talking about its a confiscation!!!!

 

[Uzi2]

Gunbroker is definitely taking down the bump fire stock auctions. They are down to just one page now depending on how you search. I'm watching the numbers as they slowly go down. Guess it just takes them a lot of time to void out that many auctions. Not like E-Bay which can wipe out auctions in a flash when it wants to.

Yes, GB took down the ads a while after I had posted. At the time there were 278 items for sale and bids on some as high as $2200.00. with a lot in the $300-$500 range with 10-20 bidders. They'll sell, there's plenty of other venues.
GB will also lose a lot of clients for doing that and they won't be made up by lefties dropping by for a bid.

 

[Reptile]

Yes, GB took down the ads a while after I had posted. At the time there were 278 items for sale and bids on some as high as $2200.00. with a lot in the $300-$500 range with 10-20 bidders. They'll sell, there's plenty of other venues.
GB will also lose a lot of clients for doing that and they won't be made up by lefties dropping by for a bid.

Where else can the Slide Fire be sold for big bucks?

 

[Uzi2]

Where else can the Slide Fire be sold for big bucks?

arfcom had about 20 listed this afternoon. Its not an auction like GB but they are out there if you look around.

 

[HKdrummer]

So Mizz witch Feinstein will introduce or sneak this bill, but the wording relates to confiscation .....of all semi automatics.

https://www.congress.gov/congressional-record/2017/10/05/senate-section/article/S6351-1

ALB17865 S.L.C.


S. ll
To prohibit the possession or transfer of certain firearm accessories, and
for other purposes.
IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES
llllllllll
llllllllll introduced the following bill; which was read twice


115TH CONGRESS1ST SESSION

123456789

and referred to the Committee on llllllllll
A BILL
To prohibit the possession or transfer of certain firearmaccessories, and for other purposes.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representa-tives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This Act may be cited as the ‘‘Automatic GunfirePrevention Act’’.
SEC. 2. PROHIBITION ON POSSESSION OF CERTAIN FIRE-ARM ACCESSORIES.
Chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, is amend-ed—



ALB17865 S.L.C.2


123456789
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20

(1) in section 922, by inserting after subsection(u) the following:
‘‘(v)(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), on andafter the date that is 180 days after the date of enactmentof this subsection, it shall be unlawful for any person toimport, sell, manufacture, transfer, or possess, in or af-fecting interstate or foreign commerce, a trigger crank,a bump-fire device, or any part, combination of parts,component, device, attachment, or accessory that is de-signed or functions to accelerate the rate of fire of a semi-automatic rifle but not convert the semiautomatic rifleinto a machinegun.
‘‘(2) This subsection does not apply with respect tothe importation for, manufacture for, sale to, transfer to,or possession by or under the authority of, the UnitedStates or any department or agency thereof or a State,or a department, agency, or political subdivision thereof.’’;and
(2) in section 924(a)(2), by striking ‘‘, or (o)’’and inserting ‘‘(o), or (v)’’.


I don't think many people no whats in the bill.....it shall be unlawful for any person to import, sell, manufacture, transfer, or possess, in or af- fecting interstate or foreign commerce, a trigger crank, a bump-fire device, or any part, combination of parts, component, device, attachment, or accessory that is de- signed or functions to accelerate the rate of fire of a semi- automatic rifle but not convert the semiautomatic rifle into a machinegun. See what I'm talking about its a confiscation!!!!

See, SEE, now they're adding cranks. So that nice expensive Emory Crankfire I have for my 1919 is in the sights of antis because all you "its for the betterment of 2a" types are sooooooo willing to appease the leftist cocksuckers. I hope you're all happy.

I WILL NOT COMPLY.