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AFS Range Suicide - No. Attleboro
- Thread starter LTCRN
- Start date
EMTDAD
NES Member
Tragic
As an Instructor and RO myself, I can tell you that action is quicker than reaction! Unless you have your hand right next to her's, your chance of stopping a suicide like this is really zero. Real life isn't like hollyweird!
As for reporting, I'll share a conversation about a suicide that I had with my late Police Chief . . .
His comment was that it helps nobody to declare it suicide vs. accidental.
- Family is already devastated by the results.
- Insurance sometimes will not pay out on suicide, thus further hurting those left behind.
- Thus before the advent of the Internet, cameras everywhere, etc. it was felt that declaring such events as accidental might give some further piece of mind to the remaining family and do them less harm financially.
- - - Updated - - -
And how does that guarantee that such an event wouldn't happen because it is a "private range"??
Yeah, she posted on FB that she was suicidal. It sounded like she lost a guy that was close to her and that was the last straw. Pretty sad... but likely not preventable. I've known, indirectly, 3 different people that had someone do this and the response from friends and family was always the same... "We never saw it coming, until it happened." [sad2]
-Mike
-Mike
Good points but experienced shooters don't let this lapse. It's ingrained in our heads. That's why we don't make mistakes.
Also, seems like this was actually intentional. Not an ND.
Yup. And there's really no such thing as an AD. Well unless the gun is legitimately defective. It would have been an ND if it was unintentional but it sounds like it was intentional.
it wouldn't. Understood that it's impossible. Just trying to think out how AFS comes out in this. I mean, technically they are a victim here as well. Not trying to be insensitive. I feel horrible that someone gets to such a low point in thier life to go to such drastic measures. It's a tough subject, and it sucks all the way around.
My heart goes out to her family. That sucks.
I would love to agree with this MikeM but I cant. I bet the number of NDs are madeup evenly between complacency and inexperience. That exact attitude "this cant happen to me" can lead to that. I bet the DEA Agent who im sure went through decent training thought he was "experienced" as well as the 3 security guards I worked with who had NDs, and the lead instructor at the police academy who shot himself in the leg, the MP who did the same, the numerous cops with NDs, my uncle said his station had many holes in the ceiling in the lockerroom. Thats not even including the Military which im sure people on here can give stories to back this up and im not talking combat im talking training and day to day carrying.
I disagree. Everyone makes mistakes. That is the reason that there are overlapping safety rules -- you have break more than one for bad things to happen. If you keep the gun pointed in a safe direction, even if you negligently fire a shot, no one gets hurt. If you point the gun in an unsafe direction but you have your finger off the trigger, the gun won't go off. For something bad to happen, you have to 1) point the gun in an unsafe direction and 2) have your finger on the trigger.
We all try to be very careful, but people can and do have mental lapses.
That said, I also suspect it might have been intentional.
Garys
NES Member
I shoot there sometimes. You do not need an LTC to shoot there provided you have a friend come with you (after a couple of suicides they changed their policy so you cannot rent a gun if you're alone, unless you have your LTC and have brought your own gun as well). The questionaire they have you fill out prior to being allowed to shoot does ask about your experience, however, having my LTC prior to my first visit, I do not know if they require training for "newbies". New shooters I've brought were not required to undergo any training, though we shot on the same lane.
There is supervision there. There are cameras on each of the three ranges, as well as an RSO sometimes on the range (maybe only when there are unlicensed shooters on the range?). And they do keep an eye on things pretty closely there.
Well, I retract my commentary about the AFS. Glad to hear they have improved the safety of their firing line.
Back when I used to go there, they let people walk in off the street, sign a piece of paper that said they were not prohibited, and rent any gun in the case. Clerk would spent 90 seconds showing them how to load and unload a rental gun, then sent them to the firing line. There was usually one RO on duty, but on a busy day he was usually busy fixing jams, and overall supervision on the range was minimal.
Of course, in this case none of that really matters - not much you can do to stop a suicide.
And in regards to the public vs. private range comments, the only reason you see this so much on public ranges is because they rent guns to people who don't have access to one otherwise. If someone belongs to a private range, they generally own their own gun and can off themselves from the privacy of their own home.
Yeah, right. There are two types of shooters - those who have had an ND, and those who will have an ND.
In fact, it seems to me that the more experienced I become, the harder and harder it is to remain vigilant about safety. When I first started shooting, the safety rules were freshly pounded into my head, and were constantly in the forefront of my mind. Now, many years later, so much has become habit that I operate on autopilot sometimes, just running on repetition and instincts. I need to constantly remind my self to slow down, think more and pay more attention to what I'm doing.
Back when I used to go there, they let people walk in off the street, sign a piece of paper that said they were not prohibited, and rent any gun in the case. Clerk would spent 90 seconds showing them how to load and unload a rental gun, then sent them to the firing line. There was usually one RO on duty, but on a busy day he was usually busy fixing jams, and overall supervision on the range was minimal.
Of course, in this case none of that really matters - not much you can do to stop a suicide.
And in regards to the public vs. private range comments, the only reason you see this so much on public ranges is because they rent guns to people who don't have access to one otherwise. If someone belongs to a private range, they generally own their own gun and can off themselves from the privacy of their own home.
Yeah, right. There are two types of shooters - those who have had an ND, and those who will have an ND.
In fact, it seems to me that the more experienced I become, the harder and harder it is to remain vigilant about safety. When I first started shooting, the safety rules were freshly pounded into my head, and were constantly in the forefront of my mind. Now, many years later, so much has become habit that I operate on autopilot sometimes, just running on repetition and instincts. I need to constantly remind my self to slow down, think more and pay more attention to what I'm doing.
not new guy
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Hopefully not too widespread. Talk about a stupid policy/practice.
I would venture that it was very widespread at least until the 2000s, now that everything is computerized, numerous officers sent to the scene of anything/everything, I would hazard a guess that it is less the case.
New guy, so you'd like to doubly punish the innocent family left behind too? Perhaps you'll feel better when they all go on welfare since they lost a breadwinner and nobody paid out the life insurance policy?? [NOTE: I am not advocating that if someone plans their suicide and then buys mega life insurance that the company pay off, just that if it happened that they bought life insurance a year or two ago and sudden tragedy sends them to this dark end that the family left behind shouldn't be made to suffer a double loss.]
Off hand I can recall 4 people that I've known who committed suicide, I never had a clue . . .
GaryO
NES Member
My life insurance policy states that it would not pay out on a suicide for the 1st year the policy was in effect so if i read it correctly, after the 1st year it would pay out.
