-
If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership The benefits pay for the membership many times over.
-
Be sure to enter the NES/MFS May Giveaway ***Canik METE SFX***
AFS Range Suicide - No. Attleboro
- Thread starter LTCRN
- Start date
It happens pretty damn often. When my would have been brother in law killed himself a week after his 16th b-day it was called an AD (their term). It was reported by the family as a suicide to 911, somerset PD and MSP. When they arrived they found him with a point blank GSW to the right temple. He was alone in his bed with the gun near his head, (.25 didn't kick far from the body) and had "Don't Cry" by GNR playing on loop on his radio. They found HIS NOTE on the table and a noose along with other suicide related items in his closet AND ! They still wrote it up a an accident.
No questions for his grandfather who's gun he used after stealing it from their house. It all just got swept up. His mother even went on to start a drop in center for depressed and suicidal kids. Brian had a history of depression and suicidal tendencies, so bad that his family had the suicide clause in the insurance that says the ins. would pay out in the event of a suicide. No one tried to hide the fact that it was a suicide except the PD.
It didn't help the family or friends in any way. Everyone knew what he did and the ins was paying out wither way.
That was a bad year. I lost 5 people under 18 that year during the summer alone. Two were suicides and one, who had a pacemaker due to a heart defect, died of a heart attack after he watched his friend take his own head off with a 12 ga. without warning.
Damn. That's a lot to deal with in a year.
That sucks. Her family must be a wreck.
The problem is that you're comparing cops, who generally, aren't experience shooters to experienced shooters who are civilians.
Yes, this was intentional (see updates above).
I guess I'm coming from this from a different angle than you guys. My definition of an experienced/safe shooter is one that lives by the "code".
Really?
Is that kinda like there are 10 people in the world; those that can read binary and those that can't?
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
Yes and no. I can sense "autopilot" coming on. When that happens I mentally "throttle down". Make sure what I'm doing.
I think the easiest and safest way to prevent NDs is simple: Pretend that the muzzle is like a Star Wars Light Saber that goes on forever (yeah, I know, a silly little analogy but it works - for me anyway). Don't let the Light Saber cross anything you aren't willing to destroy. Right?
This guy might not be the brightest bulb, but I'd bet nearly anything he has more experience than most cops/LE/etc... and yet, this still happened...
Of course this was a "training" ND and is a bit different from a "typical" ND that involves someone futzing around with a gun inside a house or a car and shooting something they're not supposed to or didn't intend to shoot.
I generally agree with this sort of thing. Generally I think most NDs happen because "safety as a habit" is not practiced enough in all vectors. For example if you go to a gun store, you will see people (sometimes even the CLERKS) doing stupid stuff with guns everyone knows are unloaded but the slide/action isn't open, and I cringe because I know that they're going to break Rule 1 or Rule 2 someday with a gun they forgot was loaded. The fun thing is when the habits are strong enough if you inadvertently break the habit even SLIGHTLY a little signal goes off in your brain. It's hard to explain, but basically when you feel something is off STOP what you are doing.
I also think another humbling thing is this- find out how other people have had NDs, look at the gory photographs, etc. It puts things into perspective. I've seen enough ".45 ACP bullet tracks in legs " to not want to do something like that to myself, ever. I also did a lot of research on ADs, as well- for example, finding out which guns are and are not really drop safe. There are a lot old and junk grade handguns (eg, like lorcin 380s and 9mms etc) out there that should never really be carried with a round in the pipe. There are also a lot of rifles and shotguns that even with the safety on, if someone is carrying one loaded, they need to exercise great care in handling, as a lot of them are not intrinsically drop safe. It's a lot easier to learn by the painful mistakes others have made than having it happen to you!
-Mike
Last edited by a moderator:
OfficerObie59
NES Member
- Joined
- May 3, 2009
- Messages
- 5,419
- Likes
- 1,899
FWIW, you must never have had a slam fire.
We all try to live by the "code". But we also realize that we're not perfect -- we are people, and people make mistakes. And one of the biggest mistakes that we can make is to be overconfident and thus get complacent.
I've had over 220 hours of formal firearms training. I'm an NRA certified instructor, NRA certified range safety officer, and IDPA safety officer. I'm classified Expert in IDPA SSR and CDP, Sharpshooter in IDPA SSP. So I think it is fair to say that I'm a well-trained and experienced shooter.
But I still don't assume that it will never happen to me because "I'm careful" or because "I live by the code."
People screw up and I can too.
Last edited:
I'm fortunate that I haven't known anyone who has committed suicide. But I have known people who have struggled against depression and been in pain their entire lives. It is not my place to judge them if they decide that their life isn't worth living. I haven't walked a mile in their shoes. I will let a higher power judge them.
I have a great deal of sympathy both for those who were in such pain and for those that they have left behind.
Why is it that there is never enough focus on the incredible danger/problem of mental health issues? (not here on NES, but in the media/society in general) Suicides, mass shootings, etc. are ALWAYS a result of mental health issues. No sane, healthy person would/could take their own or another's life. The media will turn this incident into a gun problem as they always do, marginalizing the serious psychological problems this woman was suffering with. If we took all the anti-gun money and resources and pointed it at solving/improving mental health, we could actually accomplish something and avoid some of these tragedies. Just raising awareness for friends/family/acquaintances to recognize the danger signs in others' behavior would go a long way (not saying that any family member or friend is to blame here). It's not a panacea, but certainly a better use of resources than blaming the weapon.
The movie "One Flew Over The Cukoo's Nest" was something a spark for "reform" of the mental health treatment in the US. At the time, there were more than a few horror stories of terrible treatment at state run facilities. The mental health profession had not exactly covered itself in glory.
The theory of "deinstitutionalization" came into vogue. The idea was that patients would be removed from these huge institutional warehouses into smaller facilities in the community, where they would have better lives. What really happened, though, was that the huge state institutions were closed and replaced with .... nothing. In 1955, there were 339 psychiatric beds per 100,000 population. In 2000, that number was 22 per 100,000.
After the horrors of people who should not have been institutionalized being forcibly institutionalized, the balance swung the other way, and it became very hard to institutionalize someone against their will for anything longer than a brief observation period.
IMO, mental health treatment hasn't become so revolutionized that 90% of those who would have been hospitalized in 1955 no longer need to be hospitalized. So where are those mentally ill people now? I suspect largely on the street or in jail.
Why don't the politicians work to solve this problem? Several reasons. First, providing more beds costs money. Second, forcing people into institutions is unpopular for obvious reasons, with advocates for the mentally ill strongly against it -- there is a tension between risk to the public versus liberty. Third, it is a lot easier to be "tough on crime" and vote for money for a new prison than it is to argue to involuntarily hospitalize people and vote for money for a new mental institution.
http://www.uniteforsight.org/mental-health/module2
http://www.npr.org/2014/01/20/263461940/mentally-ill-inmates-often-locked-up-in-jails-that-cant-help
Our society is failing at helping the mentally ill and their families. And we are paying the price for that failure.
Very good points! So, due to this, mental health providers take the "simple" (or perhaps only viable) approach and over-prescribe psychotropic drugs, which lead to their own set of issues (linked to many mass shooting perpetrators).
my grandmother lived right near the MET state in waltham. when they closed their doors the mentally ill wandered the neighborhoods for weeks we were not allow out in her yard at the time when visiting. many years later i asked her about that time. she said the problem is the mentally ill don't vote and cost the state to much money. they would rather funnel the money to people who vote, their favorite projects or themselves.
I don't really think its fair to lump suicides in with those other things. Most people who commit suicide know exactly what they're doing and why they're doing it, these people generally aren't on the same plane as the adam lanzas of the world in terms of being ****ed up, save for maybe the messed up people who think they need to kill the rest of their family before they take their own life.
Also, suicides are difficult because many, or even most people who take their own life are not getting ANY kind of mental health treatment. There's also a problem where people who are legitimately serious about doing it fear mandated reporters. Why is someone who really wants to off themselves going to talk to someone about their desires when they know that person has an obligation to report them? Other than those suicide hotlines there is no way for a counselor or therapist to (legally) not rat out the person who talked about hurting themselves. We're not going to be able to address suicide in a mental health setting until you can effectively "disarm that bomb" so to speak. Right now most of the people seeking help are the chumps, the attention whore types, etc. The people who are a real threat to themselves are a whole other ballgame. The only way you will possibly maybe get through to these folks is if a medium exists where they can get help, in a judgement free setting.
-Mike
Garys
NES Member
Your time line is incorrect. The deinstitutionalization movement goes back to the late 1950s when well meaning (being charitable) people who deplored the conditions at state run mental hospitals across the nation started filing law suits.
The result was court rulings that required mental health treatment to be done in "the least restrictive setting possible". People were turned out in to the streets and were supposed to get "community based" treatment.
There were a couple of problems with that. First, people could not be compelled to take medication unless they posed a clear threat to others or themselves. Then, they could only be treated until such time as they no longer posed a threat at which time they were free to refuse treatment. Second, the community mental health centers failed to appear because there wasn't enough money to fund them and make profitable or at least allow them to pay their bills.
There is a lot more to it that I won't go in to because it could fill a book. In fact it has. I highly recommend Clayton Cramers "My Brother Paul", which has a history of mental health treatment from Colonial Times up until very recently. It also ties the failure of mental health care in this country to several mass shootings. Cramer is a historian by education and a 2nd Amendment advocate. I read his blog and have read several of his books. He's very well informed on this subject.
The result was court rulings that required mental health treatment to be done in "the least restrictive setting possible". People were turned out in to the streets and were supposed to get "community based" treatment.
There were a couple of problems with that. First, people could not be compelled to take medication unless they posed a clear threat to others or themselves. Then, they could only be treated until such time as they no longer posed a threat at which time they were free to refuse treatment. Second, the community mental health centers failed to appear because there wasn't enough money to fund them and make profitable or at least allow them to pay their bills.
There is a lot more to it that I won't go in to because it could fill a book. In fact it has. I highly recommend Clayton Cramers "My Brother Paul", which has a history of mental health treatment from Colonial Times up until very recently. It also ties the failure of mental health care in this country to several mass shootings. Cramer is a historian by education and a 2nd Amendment advocate. I read his blog and have read several of his books. He's very well informed on this subject.
So very true but as Mike says below these aren't generally the same people as those that commit suicide (without taking out other people).
I think that Mike hit the nail on the head. Every call on the scanner that I hear for a MH issue, the police respond with EMS, they do a section 12 commitment, I guess with a doc on call 24x7 via phone just like the 209As handed out like candy.
http://www.mass.gov/eohhs/gov/departments/dmh/civil-commitment-and-hospital-admissions-forms.html
The record of this commitment stays FOREVER in your new "police jacket" to be used against you in numerous ways for life thanks to the advent of computerization.
A number of years ago my LE assn. had a guest speaker who was a cop that helped other cops that got themselves in trouble with alcohol or drugs. He'd get a call and sweep up the cop, take him out of state to a facility to dry out . . . no paperwork, no reporting. Sounded like a very "informal" program to help someone and not paste a stigma on their jacket for life. He's retired now and I have no idea if this still goes on or not. We actually need this for common people (not just the rich & famous of hollyweird) . . . a true attempt to help someone without judgment.
But MH issues are so difficult for the average person to diagnose, I'll give an example (before the Internet/Faceplant/MySpace/etc.). A local merchant was good friends with a number of cops in town, donated money to sponsor the Policemen's Ball (back when they had Balls
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
). He and his Wife attended one year, I recall talking with him briefly there (and I had done some business with him over the years). After the Ball was over, some cops headed over to his house (we were invited but we headed home). Next morning they find that he murdered his Wife and then killed himself! Every officer in the department was shaken to the core, they thought that they knew him and they had no clue!!
Disagree.
There are certainly circumstances in which a sane person would choose death over life. There are good reasons for killing people (e.g., they are trying to kill you). Suicide is a fundamentally personal decision. How one person can claim to know the value of life to another is a mystery to me. The decision to live, like the decision to die, is basic to true liberty.
As for mental health issues, note that most people speak of these matters in terms of pre-crime. They want to control the "unhealthy" man before he harms others (or himself). That is nothing more than deprivation of liberty based on speculation. How could that, and the government power needed to enforce it, turn into anything but horror? Yet whenever there is a shooting issue we get many (including the NRA) jumping on the "mental health" bandwagon, embracing the idea that liberty should be denied to those who have committed no crime, yet are deemed unfit by a bureaucratic process.
Risk is unavoidable in life. When we see such risk (say, from mental instability), the first question should not be "what can we (government) do about it?". Rather, the question should be whether any attempt to address the risk is in conflict with liberty. In most mental health cases the government cure is far worse than the disease.
excellent point.
So very true but as Mike says below these aren't generally the same people as those that commit suicide (without taking out other people).
I think that Mike hit the nail on the head. Every call on the scanner that I hear for a MH issue, the police respond with EMS, they do a section 12 commitment, I guess with a doc on call 24x7 via phone just like the 209As handed out like candy.
http://www.mass.gov/eohhs/gov/departments/dmh/civil-commitment-and-hospital-admissions-forms.html
The record of this commitment stays FOREVER in your new "police jacket" to be used against you in numerous ways for life thanks to the advent of computerization.
A number of years ago my LE assn. had a guest speaker who was a cop that helped other cops that got themselves in trouble with alcohol or drugs. He'd get a call and sweep up the cop, take him out of state to a facility to dry out . . . no paperwork, no reporting. Sounded like a very "informal" program to help someone and not paste a stigma on their jacket for life. He's retired now and I have no idea if this still goes on or not. We actually need this for common people (not just the rich & famous of hollyweird) . . . a true attempt to help someone without judgment.
But MH issues are so difficult for the average person to diagnose, I'll give an example (before the Internet/Faceplant/MySpace/etc.). A local merchant was good friends with a number of cops in town, donated money to sponsor the Policemen's Ball (back when they had Balls
Zero tolerance, its everywhere.
I have a love/hate relationship with this thread. I've deleted three posts before posting already. Some posters have put up thoughtful commentary on the subject.
A few thoughts of my own, if I may...
I grew up near Fernald, MDC, and McLean's. The 'feebs' (yes, that was the term used back then) never harmed anyone in my recollection, and there were many walking around. I remember once when I met a couple of teen junkies who jumped the fence at McLean's and were trying to scam my friends out of money - that is about as far as it went.
Giving somebody - anybody - a pass on something because you can't know what's in their head, or you haven't walked a mile in their shoes, is a total cop-out. It is along the same relativist multicultural moral code that says you can't judge anyone for anything because they aren't you. So Welcome to NAMBLA USA.
But we do have religious, cultural, tribal, and other taboos. These are generally universal because they are fundamental to the success of society. In the case of suicide, I think it speaks to the fact that a society is stronger when we are all in it, and when you kill yourself, regardless of your reason, you are telling each member of your tribe that you place no value in that bond or structure. (can't find the right words exactly.) it is extremely selfish in that regard because it leaves anybody who cared about you with a burden that can never be resolved. Perhaps it is selfish of me to want you alive even if you hate your life, but - and here I go - your life may have a purpose that you neither appreciate nor comprehend.
And here is the crux of the issue. If you believe the Buddhist principal(or have read Marcus Aurelius) then you know life is suffering(aka the human condition of yearning and misery). We may know great joy, but the loss of those things that bring joy, and the desire for them, brings us great suffering. Despite that, our lives may have meaning and purpose that we, from our place down in the weeds, cannot see. When we are so focused on suffering that we lose sight of all the good in our lives, we can be filled with despair. Whether you see this as personal indulgence or mental illness is up to you. (I guess I am lucky that I wake up every day, look at how great my life is, then gird for battle and fight through 12 hours at work. You pay to play, so enjoy the strawberry.)
Few people get too far in life without suffering some tragedy, be it great or small. We all remember our first heartbreak, and how we thought the world would end because we could never be with I-don't-remember-her-name-anymore. We suffer the loss of parents, siblings, children, and lovers. And yet we persevere.
---
To economist's point: my worldview says it should be your right to end your life, and yet morally wrong to do so except in extreme cases.
A few thoughts of my own, if I may...
I grew up near Fernald, MDC, and McLean's. The 'feebs' (yes, that was the term used back then) never harmed anyone in my recollection, and there were many walking around. I remember once when I met a couple of teen junkies who jumped the fence at McLean's and were trying to scam my friends out of money - that is about as far as it went.
Giving somebody - anybody - a pass on something because you can't know what's in their head, or you haven't walked a mile in their shoes, is a total cop-out. It is along the same relativist multicultural moral code that says you can't judge anyone for anything because they aren't you. So Welcome to NAMBLA USA.
But we do have religious, cultural, tribal, and other taboos. These are generally universal because they are fundamental to the success of society. In the case of suicide, I think it speaks to the fact that a society is stronger when we are all in it, and when you kill yourself, regardless of your reason, you are telling each member of your tribe that you place no value in that bond or structure. (can't find the right words exactly.) it is extremely selfish in that regard because it leaves anybody who cared about you with a burden that can never be resolved. Perhaps it is selfish of me to want you alive even if you hate your life, but - and here I go - your life may have a purpose that you neither appreciate nor comprehend.
And here is the crux of the issue. If you believe the Buddhist principal(or have read Marcus Aurelius) then you know life is suffering(aka the human condition of yearning and misery). We may know great joy, but the loss of those things that bring joy, and the desire for them, brings us great suffering. Despite that, our lives may have meaning and purpose that we, from our place down in the weeds, cannot see. When we are so focused on suffering that we lose sight of all the good in our lives, we can be filled with despair. Whether you see this as personal indulgence or mental illness is up to you. (I guess I am lucky that I wake up every day, look at how great my life is, then gird for battle and fight through 12 hours at work. You pay to play, so enjoy the strawberry.)
Few people get too far in life without suffering some tragedy, be it great or small. We all remember our first heartbreak, and how we thought the world would end because we could never be with I-don't-remember-her-name-anymore. We suffer the loss of parents, siblings, children, and lovers. And yet we persevere.
---
To economist's point: my worldview says it should be your right to end your life, and yet morally wrong to do so except in extreme cases.
Last edited:
Upon re-reading your post, I'll say this.
I don't believe in any higher power and therefore I don't believe a person's life is supposed to serve some greater purpose. A person should have the right to do with their life as they please. That said, if the person has entered into something, like marriage or parenthood, where others depend on you, suicide is at that point immoral. If the person has no such responsibilities, there's nothing immoral about it.
Also, in some cases, I'd argue it's immoral to ask someone else to stay around, through pain, if there is no true dependency.
Last edited:
M911- great post on being human and prone to err! Humble and so true!
Rider- fantastic post. I'll admit to having started and deleted a post to this thread twice. I agree with your post and couldn't have said it better.
I regularly use this range and my heart goes out to the whole family... including the staff at the range.
Rider- fantastic post. I'll admit to having started and deleted a post to this thread twice. I agree with your post and couldn't have said it better.
I regularly use this range and my heart goes out to the whole family... including the staff at the range.
I respect that. To PaulD's initial and edited responses, and to yours, that is fine. I am not religious, though I was raised Christian. Virtually all of humankind has spent a large part of its existence thing to find meaning in life, if such is to be found.
What I know is that we are each here once(don't believe on ghosts or reincarnation). Whether by random happenstance or Divine plan, I cannot say. But I do think that each person offers something to the world. Whether they use it or squander it is also a matter of choice, luck, and happenstance.
My view is very philosophy 101: figure out your life's meaning and do it until you're dead. Many smarter people than me have letters after their names and haven't gotten that far.
This view doesn't prevent me from thinking there are plenty of people who are a waste of space. I can't qualify that because I'm not allowed to judge.
What does confuse me is when such devout atheists as Bill Maher - who apparently think we are here for no reason - don't go on a booze, hooker, and heroin binge until they're dead. The flip side of life having no meaning is: so why don't you just kill yourself? (hopefully I don't need to point out that is a rhetorical question.) is it because you are here, and that's about it, or is it because you have things you love doing or people you love being with?
Anyway, sorry for the long posts, but this isn't really a two line subject. It's usually a twelve pack and a good bottle of whiskey subject.
ETA: wrt deinstitutionalization, my understanding is that about 1/3 of the country's homeless population is people who would have been institutionalized in the pre-Reagan days. Another third are Denis or junkies, and the last third are people who are just living free. If you believe sociologists.
Last edited:
