A very unusual idea

Raoul Duke

Raoul Duke

Joined
Mar 7, 2008
Messages
3,499
Likes
368
Location
Western Ma
Feedback: 15 / 0 / 0
Hi NESers

Here’s my story.

Today, while flipping through the Globe I saw an article by a liberal Gay Rights activist excoriating the average armchair liberal that supports gay rights but will not actively speak out in favor of gay marriage. I was annoyed not because I oppose gay rights, but because she had the gall to assume that everyone either prioritizes her agenda or is against it. There is always middle ground and I think the majority is there. It got me thinking however. Why do gay people, as liberals, often oppose 2A rights? Why do I, as some who supports gay rights, not take the time to be politically active as I do with 2A rights? These are good questions and so I wrote to the author and posted the text below. I post it here because I wonder what you all think. Read it and them follow up with my comments below:

At the risk of stereotyping the author, she is a Liberal and most liberals (at least in MA) are not in favor of preserving Second Amendment rights. While many of those are not actively working against 2A rights, neither are they out on the street protesting restrictions on my civil and constitutional (2A) rights. Therefore, should I, as someone who isn't against gay rights but doesn't intersect with them daily, take the time to go out and protest for them? I am not speaking rhetorically here. Conversely, would you, the gay rights activist, protest to preserve my right to Keep and Bear arms?

I want to believe you would but history, political affiliations, and party stances suggest the opposite.

My point is that there is a lot of gray area between the two extremes and the author is awfully short sighted to go accusing straight people who don't actively protest for Gay Rights, of being any more selfish than gay people who don't protest for 2A rights.

Here's my proposal and I think it's quite logical considering the amount of personal violence that Gay people are often subject to.

To my gay friends, the ones I know and the ones I haven’t met yet, come to me and say “Stand up with me, protest with me, let me become politically active on the Gay Rights front because you are my friend and an American. In turn, I will become politically active with you on the 2A rights front. I will speak to my community about the universal importance of the second amendment. Together we will stand and together we will speak loud and clear.”

We’re talking about rights here. More is always better

Today, I open this offer to any gay individual or activist. Come and find a 2A rights supporter like myself (you'll notice our cars/trucks with RKBA stickers or NRA stickers, you’ll find us through GOAL and the JPFO and the NRA) Offer to help us protect our 2A rights. In return I will write any letter, attend any protest and stand with you at your request.

Together perhaps we will secure both our rights.

Just a thought from an American Citizen weary of watching ALL rights fall by the wayside.

So, now you’ve read that and I ask you, NES folks, iS this an idea?

I mean, I understand that many of us oppose gay rights on some level. Some of it’s political, some religious. I understand and I absolutely will not denigrate your beliefs nor will I ask anyone who doesn’t feel as I do to join in, but for those who are anywhere from apathetic to enthusiastic, consider asking the gay people in your world to team with you, to speak with you and in turn, to invite you to speak for them. Of course you didn’t wake up this morning and think “today I will speak out for gay rights.” I sure didn’t. But perhaps it’s time to consider any alliance that increases our voting power?

Speak to your gay associates, friends, co-workers and family members and ask them to learn about the issues that matter to you. In turn be willing to learn about and stand next to them.

I could be full of shit, but as I watch an Obama presidency become more and more likely, as I watch our rights disintegrate more and consider the roughly 120K members that GOAL has out of the thousands of gun owners in this state, I ask myself, can anything be overlooked?

Remember, Obama doesn’t support Gay Marriage. That’s one reason why they hold their nose and vote (for him) as we do for McCain. Perhaps this won’t work. Perhaps I am still full of beer from last night. But, I cannot sit here and wait for something else to come along. This, people, today, is what I have to offer. It may be nothing, but it’s better than what I had planned for today last night, which was nothing.


What do you think? Should I shut up and go back to paying my yearly dues to GOAL, the NRA, and JPFO and hope things get better. Should I just buy another stripped lower and an AK before OBAMA takes office. I don't know about you, but I am feeling desperately, the need to have a greater effect on the preservation of our rights. I belong to the clubs, I go to the meetins, I help raise the money and I take newbies shooting. Still I must do more. Is this it?
 
Last edited:
See "Pink Pistols" [wink]

The idea is decent, but I just don't think you can motivate most people to protest things which they do not see as effecting their lives. I think you'll have a hard time getting homosexuals who don't already care about gun rights to put in much of an effort even with the offer of reciprocity. And homosexuals who already to care about gun rights, or who you convince to care about them for their own good, are no different than heterosexuals who care about them. They are just another gun rights supporter like the rest of us.
 
jdubois said:
See "Pink Pistols" [wink]

The idea is decent, but I just don't think you can motivate most people to protest things which they do not see as effecting their lives. I think you'll have a hard time getting homosexuals who don't already care about gun rights to put in much of an effort even with the offer of reciprocity. And homosexuals who already to care about gun rights, or who you convince to care about them for their own good, are no different than heterosexuals who care about them. They are just another gun rights supporter like the rest of us.
Click to expand...

That's the issue isn't it. People don't protest for things that don't matter to them personally. That's the problem we face, it's the problem they face. My thought was not that this should be done on a large organized scale. Rather I will make this offer to the individuals I know thus bringing anywhere from 1-5 more votes than I might otherwise have brought.

It has to be a personal, relationship-based approach. You're quite right that no one, whom you cannot speak to personally, will take this seriously. My idea is that every time you see someone protesting or even bringing up the idea of gay rights, make the offer to them. See what happens. That's all.
 
I am 100% for all rights.As long as you do not harm innocent folks,have fun with it.Everyone who wishes to own firearms should be able to,as long as owning them is for lawful purposes.Anyone who wishes to marry anyone,be my guest.Hey, I sound like a Libertarian?
 
pbearperry said:
I am 100% for all rights.As long as you do not harm innocent folks,have fun with it.Everyone who wishes to own firearms should be able to,as long as owning them is for lawful purposes.Anyone who wishes to marry anyone,be my guest.Hey, I sound like a Libertarian?
Click to expand...

Yeah, you do. Who are you, and what have you done to pbearperry??? [smile]
 
dwarven1 said:
Yeah, you do. Who are you, and what have you done to pbearperry??? [smile]
Click to expand...

You beat me to it. As I said in the other thread, clearly, we need to send out a search and rescue party.

The more I think about it, the more I get down and figure this won't work either...I don't know. I'm just feeling desperate today as an Obama presidency looms and I don't know how else to stop it. He really has people tricked into believeing that he "won't take away our guns" which is right up there with "No new taxes" in terms of believability.

I don't know. I'll come up with another idea tomorrow. [hmmm]
 
I'm not being intentionally obtuse here, so help me out.

Aside from being able to marry, what exactly are "gay rights"?
 
EddieCoyle said:
Aside from being able to marry, what exactly are "gay rights"?
Click to expand...

I guess I shouldn't be talking for a community I'm not part of, but nothing special, I believe. Just the simple matter of not being harassed, discriminated against, or outright physically attacked for their sexuality. It's not as much of a problem in this part of the country, but it can be downright nasty for them in other areas. Gay rights is (or should be) nothing more than homosexuals standing up for their normal civil rights. Pink Pistols is admirable, in my eyes, because they're not whining at the government to protect them, instead their defending their right to protect themselves.
 
Duke, I'm going to tell you like it is. You've brought up an excellent point and something that I have perhaps overlooked. Why should I stand up for people's rights who do not stand up for mine? I think that is a good and honest point to bring forth and people should know about it. I'm all for leverage. In this case I do not think that it will have any, however.

When liberals think of gay rights they get warm and fuzzy thinking about love and diversity. When they think of gunowner rights they think about violence and crime and baby seal clubbing. A lot of them do not understand at all the concept, and only associate guns with things that are bad. Gays are things that are good and loving, guns are bad and hating. That's the mind of the liberals that we are referring to. So I don't think they'll be convinced. Remember, these are the people that know what is best for everyone else and want the government to do for everyone else what they feel is best for everyone else. They are not of the mindset that I am, which is more or less you leave me alone and I will leave you alone, go be gay somewhere else and I will shoot, but I wont shoot you. See?

Here is why your argument is flawed:

Growing up I was buddies with this kid. We did everything together from backyard football, to fishing, shooting, hunting, etc.. I mean this dude was a cool guy. Drinking beers, going to the strip bars, you name it right? Well the guys got a gun collection that would knock your socks off, NRA life member, heavy millitary collector, disassemble an AR and put it back together before you can tie your boots up. Well, one day I stumbled upon his gay porn collection, which believe it or not was almost as extensive as his gun collection.

I shit a chicken. He ended up coming out a week or two later after trying to make up some b.s. to cover it all up and it turns out that the guy is gay. Talk about being thrown for a loop. I seriously thought I needed counseling after that. If you can imagine knowing someone for over a decade and then finding out that they're completely not who you thought they are, it messes you up. I could care less if the guys gay, to me I think it's a little awkward and weird to be around but screw it, if that's what your into I could give a crap. But there is something about it that sticks in the back of your mind where you feel like you've been lied to and betrayed, even though you can understand why and you don't have a problem with the gay thing.

Anyway, there you go. This guy is a perfect example of the fact that there are people who are gay, are not liberal, and love guns. And they're going to think your crazy for placing them into the moonbat category.
 
Last edited:
I understand Raoul Duke's point, it would benefit two groups of "activists" to team together in their efforts. However, I can't stand the group you picked. As EC stated aside from marriage what are they missing rights wise? I also absolutely oppose protected classes, If I'm jack booting you to the head, the slurs exiting my less than intelligent cranium should have no bearing on the significance of said attack. Why is a lesser crime to beat a straight white kid half to death. I'll stop now as I feel I've made my point, and I don't want this post to become my personal soap box.

On the other hand, if there are any homosexuals out there that want me to make a call to my State/Federal electorate on their behalf I will gladly do so in exchange for some pro-2A action on their part. Not a bad concept RD, too bad it may never come to fruition.
 
Raoul Duke said:
Hi NESers

Here’s my story.

Today, while flipping through the Globe I saw an article by a liberal Gay Rights activist excoriating the average armchair liberal that supports gay rights but will not actively speak out in favor of gay marriage. I was annoyed not because I oppose gay rights, but because she had the gall to assume that everyone either prioritizes her agenda or is against it. There is always middle ground and I think the majority is there. It got me thinking however. Why do gay people, as liberals, often oppose 2A rights? Why do I, as some who supports gay rights, not take the time to be politically active as I do with 2A rights? These are good questions and so I wrote to the author and posted the text below. I post it here because I wonder what you all think. Read it and them follow up with my comments below:

At the risk of stereotyping the author, she is a Liberal and most liberals (at least in MA) are not in favor of preserving Second Amendment rights. While many of those are not actively working against 2A rights, neither are they out on the street protesting restrictions on my civil and constitutional (2A) rights. Therefore, should I, as someone who isn't against gay rights but doesn't intersect with them daily, take the time to go out and protest for them? I am not speaking rhetorically here. Conversely, would you, the gay rights activist, protest to preserve my right to Keep and Bear arms?

I want to believe you would but history, political affiliations, and party stances suggest the opposite.

My point is that there is a lot of gray area between the two extremes and the author is awfully short sighted to go accusing straight people who don't actively protest for Gay Rights, of being any more selfish than gay people who don't protest for 2A rights.

Here's my proposal and I think it's quite logical considering the amount of personal violence that Gay people are often subject to.

To my gay friends, the ones I know and the ones I haven’t met yet, come to me and say “Stand up with me, protest with me, let me become politically active on the Gay Rights front because you are my friend and an American. In turn, I will become politically active with you on the 2A rights front. I will speak to my community about the universal importance of the second amendment. Together we will stand and together we will speak loud and clear.”

We’re talking about rights here. More is always better

Today, I open this offer to any gay individual or activist. Come and find a 2A rights supporter like myself (you'll notice our cars/trucks with RKBA stickers or NRA stickers, you’ll find us through GOAL and the JPFO and the NRA) Offer to help us protect our 2A rights. In return I will write any letter, attend any protest and stand with you at your request.

Together perhaps we will secure both our rights.

Just a thought from an American Citizen weary of watching ALL rights fall by the wayside.

So, now you’ve read that and I ask you, NES folks, iS this an idea?

I mean, I understand that many of us oppose gay rights on some level. Some of it’s political, some religious. I understand and I absolutely will not denigrate your beliefs nor will I ask anyone who doesn’t feel as I do to join in, but for those who are anywhere from apathetic to enthusiastic, consider asking the gay people in your world to team with you, to speak with you and in turn, to invite you to speak for them. Of course you didn’t wake up this morning and think “today I will speak out for gay rights.” I sure didn’t. But perhaps it’s time to consider any alliance that increases our voting power?

Speak to your gay associates, friends, co-workers and family members and ask them to learn about the issues that matter to you. In turn be willing to learn about and stand next to them.

I could be full of shit, but as I watch an Obama presidency become more and more likely, as I watch our rights disintegrate more and consider the roughly 120K members that GOAL has out of the thousands of gun owners in this state, I ask myself, can anything be overlooked?

Remember, Obama doesn’t support Gay Marriage. That’s one reason why they hold their nose and vote (for him) as we do for McCain. Perhaps this won’t work. Perhaps I am still full of beer from last night. But, I cannot sit here and wait for something else to come along. This, people, today, is what I have to offer. It may be nothing, but it’s better than what I had planned for today last night, which was nothing.


What do you think? Should I shut up and go back to paying my yearly dues to GOAL, the NRA, and JPFO and hope things get better. Should I just buy another stripped lower and an AK before OBAMA takes office. I don't know about you, but I am feeling desperately, the need to have a greater effect on the preservation of our rights. I belong to the clubs, I go to the meetins, I help raise the money and I take newbies shooting. Still I must do more. Is this it?
Click to expand...

Outstanding idea. I'm in.
 
I just had a remarkable conversation with a gay in-law. She knows I like to shoot and wondered if I would take her to the range. I told her I'd be happy to. I asked why the sudden interest as I have known her for over 15 years. Her response stunned me. She fears Obama is going to be elected and this country will be in danger. She wants to be able to protect herself, significant other and this country. I was shocked. She's not big on McLain, just considers him lesser of two evils.

She's not a protester nor picketer, just an ordinary person with a different lifestyle. I suspect there are many more out there with similar beliefs. I think all too often the loud mouths and extremists get all the attention.

I can't wait to get her to the range. Hopefully she'll enjoy it and the next step will be a LTC.
 
MikeH said:
I just had a remarkable conversation with a gay in-law. She knows I like to shoot and wondered if I would take her to the range. I told her I'd be happy to. I asked why the sudden interest as I have known her for over 15 years. Her response stunned me. She fears Obama is going to be elected and this country will be in danger. She wants to be able to protect herself, significant other and this country. I was shocked. She's not big on McLain, just considers him lesser of two evils.
Click to expand...

Hmm... this is going to be a VERY interesting election.
 
Good idea! I don't have any general feedback other that this. If you need help organizing anything, PM or email me.

Maybe liaise with a local Pink Pistols chapter?
 
pbearperry said:
I am 100% for all rights.As long as you do not harm innocent folks,have fun with it.Everyone who wishes to own firearms should be able to,as long as owning them is for lawful purposes.Anyone who wishes to marry anyone,be my guest.Hey, I sound like a Libertarian?
Click to expand...

Yeah! You might have discovered the truth! Join us! [smile]
 
What have you done to Pbearperry?

dwarven1 said:
Yeah, you do. Who are you, and what have you done to pbearperry??? [smile]
Click to expand...

Nothing hes sitting right next to me.lol OK let me digress,nobody has a right to spout out stupidity all the time.Oh,unless you are a politician.
 
I think it is unfortunate that Gay couples who truly care for eachother have no say in anything when their partner dies.It's also unfair when a longtime couple cannot get on the other partners health insurance as in the case of a straight couple.That's a major part of the Gay right issue.I have to laugh when I hear folks yelling about it will ruin the sanctity of Marriage.lol Over 50% of them fall apart,and according to what poll you listen too,as much as 75% of men,and 60% of women cheat on their spouses.As John Sossell says,"Give me a break."lol I could care less who marries who,in fact why should straight folks have to be more miserable than Gay folks?
 
Well...Now it's 10:30 and last night's festivities have completely worn off however, the Sox are back in front on a Varitek homer so I'm still feeling the love.

The only thing I have to add, simply in answer to Eddie C's question, is to say that I was speaking specifically about Gay marriage. Their is probably a wide scale "Gay Rights" agenda I know nothing about and might even find abhorrent. But, this one issue, I do feel, is a right. And that is the right to marry the person you love even if it's someone of the same sex.

Frankly, I think Bobcat had an insightful post regarding the perspective on Shooters.

I guess it's not the end all be all, but as for me, I am going to make it my goal to enlist a few new people using this technique. If it fails, we have lost nothing.

Besides, It's the Sox just scored another run off Big Pappi's bat so things are looking up.
 
Sort of like trading civil rights activist carbon credits. [smile][wink]

In all seriousness I can see some merit to the idea.
 
While I have no problem with "gay rights"/"gay marriage" (to each their own... the government has no business in the personal affairs of consenting adults), some of these so called gay "activists" have done more damage to our 2nd amendment rights than most "straight" politicians.

Let's start with Barney Frank... Cheryl Jaques, Jarret Barrios; they can all eat shit and die as far as I'm concerned.

As along as they could give a f*** about my rights.... I could give a f*** about theirs.
 
EddieCoyle said:
I'm not being intentionally obtuse here, so help me out.

Aside from being able to marry, what exactly are "gay rights"?
Click to expand...

Quite frankly I have come to see "gay rights" as "special rights".

The more proper way to call any rights are "human rights" - but the gays in my opinion have by and large come to see themselves as special and different from everybody else.

I think Raoul Duke has a very good idea though - if only to point out the hypocrisy of the person who is whining about how more people aren't out there protesting for "gay rights" - that person is in fact making my point: that the gays often see themselves as "special". Somebody who thinks of themselves as special is obviously going to be upset when the rest of the world does not share their viewpoint.
 
MikeH said:
I just had a remarkable conversation with a gay in-law. She knows I like to shoot and wondered if I would take her to the range. I told her I'd be happy to. I asked why the sudden interest as I have known her for over 15 years. Her response stunned me. She fears Obama is going to be elected and this country will be in danger. She wants to be able to protect herself, significant other and this country. I was shocked. She's not big on McLain, just considers him lesser of two evils.

She's not a protester nor picketer, just an ordinary person with a different lifestyle. I suspect there are many more out there with similar beliefs. I think all too often the loud mouths and extremists get all the attention.

I can't wait to get her to the range. Hopefully she'll enjoy it and the next step will be a LTC.
Click to expand...


You just came across one of the realities of life that the mainstream media and our culture in general refuse to acknowledge: you can't just assign people into boxes and assume they are all the same.

Imagine a world where gun totin' conservatives were out sharing the range with homosexual McCain voters - all defending liberty and this country.

Try getting anybody in the mainstream media to even believe that would even happen.
 
I agree with the sentiments expressed by several people here - the government has no business interfering in the lives of consenting adults. If two people believe they are in love and can make a good life together, let them marry and afford them the same rights as any other married couple. Let those in long term relationships have some amount of say in what happens to their beloved if something awful happens.

Reaching out to anyone and offering to support their position in hopes that they will support ours is not a fundamentally bad idea. And I think it could be done on specific areas instead of "gay rights" or "gun rights" across the board for those who don't want tosupport a sweeping platform.

For example, I could support the idea of legalizing gay marriage and/or equal healthcare benefits for same-sex spouses without supporting the idea that gays and lesbians should be a protected class. In turn, some whose sexual orientation differs from mine could support the defeat of the "one gun a month bill".

To me this would be no different from some of my own thoughts on the RKBA. While I believe in the right for the individual, I do support some sort of background check to keep lawfully obtained firearms out of the hands of known criminals and the schizophrenics.
 
I like lesbians,good looking hot lesbians.I think they should have every right to have hot lesbian sex in town squares all across the USA.

Other than that,I could care less about a group of people that define themselves by their sexuality.
 
I think the reason of the activisim vs no activism is the fact that the 2nd amendment was codified and is being defended. Gay marriage and gay rights are not codified on a national level and therefore they are trying to get the rights.

Ideally they would go for a constitional amendment which based on the requirements to such a thing will be nearly impossible on this issue. So you gets states stepping making laws to fill the gaps. Once 2/3 of the states have laws granting rights to gay marriage then you will see a constituional amendment. and then they will create the GMA (gay marriage association) to lobby and defend their rights. Because as with all amendments to the constituion, they can be repealled at any time and need defending.

Its easier to defend than to create or change.
 
sensabmc said:
I think the reason of the activisim vs no activism is the fact that the 2nd amendment was codified and is being defended. Gay marriage and gay rights are not codified on a national level and therefore they are trying to get the rights.

Ideally they would go for a constitional amendment which based on the requirements to such a thing will be nearly impossible on this issue. So you gets states stepping making laws to fill the gaps. Once 2/3 of the states have laws granting rights to gay marriage then you will see a constituional amendment. and then they will create the GMA (gay marriage association) to lobby and defend their rights. Because as with all amendments to the constituion, they can be repealled at any time and need defending.

Its easier to defend than to create or change.
Click to expand...

I don't see how gay marraige could be a constitutional amendment where there is nothing in the constitution that protects marraige to begin with.
 

Similar threads

Need a good 2A attorney for a friend
2 3 4
Replies
96
Views
3K
Len-2A Training
Len-2A Training
Is there a reason.......
2 3
Replies
66
Views
2K
CMEBoston
CMEBoston
Gopher hunting with a 22
Replies
27
Views
438
SS1
SS1
a .22 lr question
Replies
8
Views
264
Asaltweapon
Asaltweapon
Senior Army. It’s an idea.
2
Replies
56
Views
2K
paul73
paul73
Back
Top Bottom