inerlogic
NES Member
not always true. Fast passing bullet can go through a body and even catheterize the wound in the process and a few walls, but a pistol round will most likely stay with your target.
"cauterize" brother
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not always true. Fast passing bullet can go through a body and even catheterize the wound in the process and a few walls, but a pistol round will most likely stay with your target.
OK - you are mixing things a bit. I am sorry if I was not clear when I mentioned this only applies to the moment of impact. The algebriac expression as shown only captures fixed, snap shots in time. Notice there is no time component in KE=1/2mv^2. What you are alluding to is the acceleration (or more correctly in this example, deceleration - just switch the sign) dv/dt component - which involves differential calculus and a few more equations - and many more variables.
Expansion of the projectile is post impact - and that is where dv/dt comes into play. The greater the dv/dt (deceleration), the more energy is passed to the target - as they say, its not the fall that kills you, its the sudden stop - same idea.
So lets put it all together. KE=1/2mv^2 relates mass and velocity to kinetic energy at a given time point. Bullet expansion as as a result of deceleration - do we have an equation for that? **** yes we do. The grand daddy of them all: F=ma. OK, so what that really means (putting into calculus language) Force = mass x dv/dt. So, the larger the dv/dt - the more force is imparted on the object. How do we get more dv/dt from a bullet - make it a hallow point.
Again, I noted the KE equation is limited in what it tells us - it is this limitation that permits the debate to continue - that was the point I am trying to make.
I cant imagine a bullet that passes through a body with no change in velocity - Newton has taught us this is not possible thanks to conservation of momentum. Two objects can not impact one another without changing the vectors of the involved bodies.
Now, taking it all into account - what do we want to do in order to impart the max energy on the bad guy?
A fast moving bullet - I dont really care how heavy it is as long as its moving fast - that can slow down really fast once it impacts an object.
At impact: KE=1/2mv^2.
A few milliseconds after impact until the bullet stops: F=mdv/dt
Got that? That is not subject to debate.
What is, however - is some bullets are really fast. Some slow down really fast too. The holy grail is a bullet that does both. Hence gun shop post-docs like to debate which is better - all the while not realizing what we perceive as wound damage is the inter-relation of mass, velocity, acceleration and time. Its hard for folks to think in 4 dimensions at the same time - that's why Newton came up with calculus - when he was 20. We didnt even get into the densities of bone versus muscle versus sinew, nor the change in directional vectors that are also taking place, and heat, sound, friction etc.
I still assert - I don't want to get shot by any gun or caliber. Ever. Pretty sure they all hurt.
OK - you are mixing things a bit. I am sorry if I was not clear when I mentioned this only applies to the moment of impact. The algebriac expression as shown only captures fixed, snap shots in time. Notice there is no time component in KE=1/2mv^2. What you are alluding to is the acceleration (or more correctly in this example, deceleration - just switch the sign) dv/dt component - which involves differential calculus and a few more equations - and many more variables.
Expansion of the projectile is post impact - and that is where dv/dt comes into play. The greater the dv/dt (deceleration), the more energy is passed to the target - as they say, its not the fall that kills you, its the sudden stop - same idea.
So lets put it all together. KE=1/2mv^2 relates mass and velocity to kinetic energy at a given time point. Bullet expansion as as a result of deceleration - do we have an equation for that? **** yes we do. The grand daddy of them all: F=ma. OK, so what that really means (putting into calculus language) Force = mass x dv/dt. So, the larger the dv/dt - the more force is imparted on the object. How do we get more dv/dt from a bullet - make it a hallow point.
Again, I noted the KE equation is limited in what it tells us - it is this limitation that permits the debate to continue - that was the point I am trying to make.
I cant imagine a bullet that passes through a body with no change in velocity - Newton has taught us this is not possible thanks to conservation of momentum. Two objects can not impact one another without changing the vectors of the involved bodies.
Now, taking it all into account - what do we want to do in order to impart the max energy on the bad guy?
A fast moving bullet - I dont really care how heavy it is as long as its moving fast - that can slow down really fast once it impacts an object.
At impact: KE=1/2mv^2.
A few milliseconds after impact until the bullet stops: F=mdv/dt
Got that? That is not subject to debate.
What is, however - is some bullets are really fast. Some slow down really fast too. The holy grail is a bullet that does both. Hence gun shop post-docs like to debate which is better - all the while not realizing what we perceive as wound damage is the inter-relation of mass, velocity, acceleration and time. Its hard for folks to think in 4 dimensions at the same time - that's why Newton came up with calculus - when he was 20. We didnt even get into the densities of bone versus muscle versus sinew, nor the change in directional vectors that are also taking place, and heat, sound, friction etc.
I still assert - I don't want to get shot by any gun or caliber. Ever. Pretty sure they all hurt.
BUTTSTROKE TO THE HEAD........ EXECUTE!
can't do that shit with a PP
(polymer pistol)
BoT suggests 00 buckshot will penetrate 4 walls (8 sheets of sheetrock) easily. Not quite as extreme as a .223, but still significant.Personally, I think a short barreled scattergun is the way to go for HD. I used to have a mossberg 500 persuader 18 inch barrel. Cheap as dirt, went boom every time I ever pulled the trigger, and with 00 buck, whatever you hit ain't getting up. I took that thing bid hunting a few times and it was damn near impossible to tag a grouse with it. no choke and 18 inch barrel made for a too wide pattern. but considering most hallways in a house aren't going to be over 20 feet, nor are most rooms, it strikes a good balance between length/ maneuverability and punch....hits harder than a handgun, easier to aim, and not as likely to go through the wall, and the next 5 things it hits after that like a rifle.
BUTTSTROKE TO THE HEAD........ EXECUTE!
can't do that shit with a PP
(polymer pistol)
Personally, I think a short barreled scattergun is the way to go for HD.
Except when the object leaves at nearly the same speed it entered. That's why people use hollow points; to expand and dump as much energy into the target as possible, if not all of it.
Imagine an example where a bullet leaves a person at exactly the same speed it was traveling when it entered. It has exactly the same mass and exactly the same velocity, therefore exactly the same energy. That means it transferred zero energy to the medium it passed through (i.e. the bad guy).
Because you cant put a single point sling on a pistol like a badass.
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Because you cant put a single point sling on a pistol like a badass.
Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
that's awesome, although I'm not sure how that plastic butt will hold up. Mosin ... ... on the other hand, steel butt stock
What is, however - is some bullets are really fast. Some slow down really fast too. The holy grail is a bullet that does both. Hence gun shop post-docs like to debate which is better - all the while not realizing what we perceive as wound damage is the inter-relation of mass, velocity, acceleration and time. Its hard for folks to think in 4 dimensions at the same time - that's why Newton came up with calculus - when he was 20. We didnt even get into the densities of bone versus muscle versus sinew, nor the change in directional vectors that are also taking place, and heat, sound, friction etc.
I still assert - I don't want to get shot by any gun or caliber. Ever. Pretty sure they all hurt.
Shotgun. BOOM
WORD (despite several attempts at the contrary)Because you cant put a single point sling on a pistol like a badass.
sound advice for his situation.
When I was a kid and saw a movie where a guy refuses to take up machinegun position. That made my 5 yo mind wander why. MG is so much cooler and deadlier than any pistol or rifle.
"that's because you are a bigger target and will be first priority to be eliminated" said my brother. Grow up kids.
QFTMFTWhy is it a 'patrol rifle' when they have it but an 'assault rifle' when we have it?
Don't have to be wicked smaat with da math to know that.I don't want to get shot by any gun or caliber. Ever. Pretty sure they all hurt.
Math = awesome.
BUTTSTROKE TO THE HEAD........ EXECUTE!
If you are comfortable with the gun then let er rip no sense going into a gun fight with something you aren't comfortable with.
And you won't be doing that sh|t at 2:30 in the morning, from a dead sleep, in a 5 foot wide hallway.
When you're tired and woozy from just waking up and then get hit with an adrenaline dump, unless your training extensively with your handgun or rifle, you're not going to be as effective against a home invader as you could be with a shotgun.
The real question: How about a shovel handle?that's awesome, although I'm not sure how that plastic butt will hold up. Mosin ... ... on the other hand, steel butt stock
UNCLE... I give up.
I think that's kinda my point but I didn't explain it well enough. A rifle bullet will be faster, and a lighter projectile. So the entry speed would be much faster. whereas say a 45 230g hollow point will be slower then expand...won't the rifle bullet penetrate farther before it expands? Which, depending on the size of the person being shot, could come out the other side easier.
You use the handgun to fight to the rifle because the rifle is probably an AR15 or AK47 which have been proven to be the most proficient killers of baddies of all time and you really just have to fire in their general direction and they will blow up on impact.
That only works if you have the shoulder thing that goes up though
We now need to cover our options to fight to our pistol do we can fight to our rifle. Im going with fixed blade on a drop leg holster. I have no math to back this up though.
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