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"a handgun is only good to fight your way to a rifle"

Roland Deschain said:
Semantics... ROFL
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I'm always up for some antics... [smile]

Have you seen what a 110 grain Barnes black tip round will do to what it hits?? [shocked] [smile] Hell, even some 147 grain boatail rounds will do some nasty damage. Of course, I'm talking 300 Blackout here. Of course, you should always have more than one firearm within easy reach distance. I'm getting into the habit of having my 1911 on me when home. Once I get my P&R, I'll be taking it with me to more places.
 
ntomsw said:
I am definitely making an AR pistol very very soon.
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Since you're in a free state, you really, really should... IMO, it's so damned close to a SBR that it really doesn't matter. Plus, you don't need to send off $200 to the feds, and let them know what you've got. Go with an 80% lower and they'll never know. [smile]
 
exodious said:
Rifle rounds in general do a lot more damage than pistol rounds.
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A smaller, faster projectile will do more damage than a larger slower one? I would think it was the other way around. Any ballistics tests? I'm Googling now, but at work doing stuff...
 
Golddiggie said:
I'm always up for some antics... [smile]

Have you seen what a 110 grain Barnes black tip round will do to what it hits?? [shocked] [smile] Hell, even some 147 grain boatail rounds will do some nasty damage. Of course, I'm talking 300 Blackout here. Of course, you should always have more than one firearm within easy reach distance. I'm getting into the habit of having my 1911 on me when home. Once I get my P&R, I'll be taking it with me to more places.
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[shocked] that was literally the first stop on our way into town when the lady and i moved--PD to drop off app we'd filled out when we were still in MA. we had a PLAN!
 
mikeyp said:
A smaller, faster projectile will do more damage than a larger slower one? I would think it was the other way around. Any ballistics tests? I'm Googling now, but at work doing stuff...
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Yes.

Why are short rifles replacing sub-guns?
 
mikeyp said:
A smaller, faster projectile will do more damage than a larger slower one? I would think it was the other way around. Any ballistics tests? I'm Googling now, but at work doing stuff...
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Here is the equation for kinetic energy that drives this part of the debate.
Ke = 1/2mv^2.

Notice the velocity is modified by the second power. Meaning, incremental increases in velocity result in the squared increases in energy. Mass being equal, the faster bullet will do more damage than the slower bullet - because it has more kinetic energy to burn on impact. Now that's just on impact - the first few milliseconds. What this equation doesn't describe, is what that fat, slow, tumbling bullet does as it bounces off bone and ricochets in the body cavity. Hence, the debate about heavy slow bullets versus small fast bullets and damage continues to rage on and on.

My take, I don't want to get shot. period. As far as HD, I want near me the thing I can operate the easiest, level, and hit point of aim - half asleep, cold, disoriented, in the dark while probably hung over or still drunk.
 
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mikeyp said:
A smaller, faster projectile will do more damage than a larger slower one? I would think it was the other way around. Any ballistics tests? I'm Googling now, but at work doing stuff...
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I think the best idea would be to mix up some ballistics gel and see for yourself.


Also, invite me because I wanna see too.
 
mikeyp said:
A smaller, faster projectile will do more damage than a larger slower one? I would think it was the other way around. Any ballistics tests? I'm Googling now, but at work doing stuff...
Click to expand...

Check out that recently active thread on the AR500 armor plates. If I was reading it correctly they'll supposedly stop a larger 7.62NATO round (~2700 ft/s) but 5.56 (~3100 ft/s) will pass through at the same distance.

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/228075-AR-500-Armor?highlight=ar500
http://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-133162.html
 
Ok, I was able to find this after Googling a few things. Visual perspective helps, but i would still think a smaller, lighter, faster round(say you're in a medium sized house shooting an evil-doer from 10 feet away) would go in and out of him more than a 9/40/45?

images
 
To realistically think you'll be able "to fight" your way to a rifle during a home self-defensive situation is laughable.

Furthermore, to think you'll have the where with all to actually sight it (a long gun) on your target in that situation is equally laughable.

My advice?

Get better with your pistol accuracy, AND have a shotgun nearby when the house goes dark.
 
That's actually a pretty interesting pdf to flip through. It seems to have been written by somebody who knows what they're talking about.
 
Sir_Macadoo said:
Here is the equation for kinetic energy that drives this part of the debate.
Ke = 1/2mv^2.
Click to expand...

Except when the object leaves at nearly the same speed it entered. That's why people use hollow points; to expand and dump as much energy into the target as possible, if not all of it.

Imagine an example where a bullet leaves a person at exactly the same speed it was traveling when it entered. It has exactly the same mass and exactly the same velocity, therefore exactly the same energy. That means it transferred zero energy to the medium it passed through (i.e. the bad guy).
 
ToddDubya said:
Except when the object leaves at nearly the same speed it entered. That's why people use hollow points; to expand and dump as much energy into the target as possible, if not all of it.

Imagine an example where a bullet leaves a person at exactly the same speed it was traveling when it entered. It has exactly the same mass and exactly the same velocity, therefore exactly the same energy. That means it transferred zero energy to the medium it passed through (i.e. the bad guy).
Click to expand...

OK - you are mixing things a bit. I am sorry if I was not clear when I mentioned this only applies to the moment of impact. The algebriac expression as shown only captures fixed, snap shots in time. Notice there is no time component in KE=1/2mv^2. What you are alluding to is the acceleration (or more correctly in this example, deceleration - just switch the sign) dv/dt component - which involves differential calculus and a few more equations - and many more variables.

Expansion of the projectile is post impact - and that is where dv/dt comes into play. The greater the dv/dt (deceleration), the more energy is passed to the target - as they say, its not the fall that kills you, its the sudden stop - same idea.

So lets put it all together. KE=1/2mv^2 relates mass and velocity to kinetic energy at a given time point. Bullet expansion as as a result of deceleration - do we have an equation for that? **** yes we do. The grand daddy of them all: F=ma. OK, so what that really means (putting into calculus language) Force = mass x dv/dt. So, the larger the dv/dt - the more force is imparted on the object. How do we get more dv/dt from a bullet - make it a hallow point.

Again, I noted the KE equation is limited in what it tells us - it is this limitation that permits the debate to continue - that was the point I am trying to make.

I cant imagine a bullet that passes through a body with no change in velocity - Newton has taught us this is not possible thanks to conservation of momentum. Two objects can not impact one another without changing the vectors of the involved bodies.

Now, taking it all into account - what do we want to do in order to impart the max energy on the bad guy?

A fast moving bullet - I dont really care how heavy it is as long as its moving fast - that can slow down really fast once it impacts an object.

At impact: KE=1/2mv^2.
A few milliseconds after impact until the bullet stops: F=mdv/dt

Got that? That is not subject to debate.

What is, however - is some bullets are really fast. Some slow down really fast too. The holy grail is a bullet that does both. Hence gun shop post-docs like to debate which is better - all the while not realizing what we perceive as wound damage is the inter-relation of mass, velocity, acceleration and time. Its hard for folks to think in 4 dimensions at the same time - that's why Newton came up with calculus - when he was 20. We didnt even get into the densities of bone versus muscle versus sinew, nor the change in directional vectors that are also taking place, and heat, sound, friction etc.

I still assert - I don't want to get shot by any gun or caliber. Ever. Pretty sure they all hurt.
 
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Eddie said:
To realistically think you'll be able "to fight" your way to a rifle during a home self-defensive situation is laughable.

Furthermore, to think you'll have the where with all to actually sight it (a long gun) on your target in that situation is equally laughable.

My advice?

Get better with your pistol accuracy, AND have a shotgun nearby when the house goes dark.
Click to expand...

I agree with you on your first point, but with an Aimpoint on a rifle, "sighting in" a long gun that is fitted for you, (and assuming you know how to use it) is actually quite fast.

If you want to laugh at me for having a rifle next to my bed instead of a shotgun, go for it. I am far more comfortable grabbing a rifle then I am anything else. I certainly would not laugh at you for choosing a shotgun, even if I thought you were wrong.
 
ToddDubya said:
Imagine an example where a bullet leaves a person at exactly the same speed it was traveling when it entered. It has exactly the same mass and exactly the same velocity, therefore exactly the same energy. That means it transferred zero energy to the medium it passed through (i.e. the bad guy).
Click to expand...

that would violate the laws of physics, unless you're talking about the "object" it's passing through being a vacuum.
 
new guy said:
That's actually a pretty interesting pdf to flip through. It seems to have been written by somebody who knows what they're talking about.
Click to expand...

The MLEFI&AA guys are good guys. They've done an awful lot to try and bring up the firearms standards in the state with officers and instructors. Any unaccounted for round is a failure for the entire qualification. Any failure to meet the minimum score for a stage results in that stage being re-shot.

Any time someone wants to have me run them through the qual course for lolz, shoot me a msg... We'll see if you've (not you in particular New Guy) got what it takes to have an 18% hit ratio. [rolleyes]

Make sure to bring your triple retention holster.
 
edmorseiii said:
I agree with you on your first point, but with an Aimpoint on a rifle, "sighting in" a long gun that is fitted for you, (and assuming you know how to use it) is actually quite fast.

If you want to laugh at me for having a rifle next to my bed instead of a shotgun, go for it. I am far more comfortable grabbing a rifle then I am anything else. I certainly would not laugh at you for choosing a shotgun, even if I thought you were wrong.
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No, not you personally. I just think the argument is entirely silly, especially in the high stress situations of a self-defense situation, in the home.
 

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