lukewarm_fuzz
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What is your "Long Range" Rifle Platform?
- Thread starter Rockrivr1
- Start date
Great share; I love Applied Ballistics,
But that phenomena is relevant to both bolt and gas guns. So it is important to consider, but doesn’t create a unique control need for gas guns. That was my point.
For most DI 5.56 ARs* (particularly rifle length gas systems), the bullet should exit the barrel before the pressurized gas makes its way to the carrier key and begins pushing the carrier rearward.
*I’m sure a 16” 300blk will have the carrier start to move while the bullet is still in the barrel. The length of the gas system is shorter than the length of barrel after the gas port.
dcmdon
NES Member
You don't really "drive" the gun when you are trying to shoot accurately at distance and speed isn't that critical.
Your goal should be to gently press the trigger straight to the rear while exerting zero pressure with your thumb and rearward all the other fingers on your hand.
Some people pull it tighter into their shoulder. This helps with seeing your shot land since movement due to recoil is reduced. But it can also be overdone to the point where it hurts accuracy.
If I'm shooting a .223 with a brake I can leave the gun pretty loose and still see my splash. If I'm shooting my .308 with my pretty hot handloads (almost 2800 fps with a 175 gr SMK) then it needs to be held to the rear pretty firmly along with the scope being at 16x or below if I am going to have any hope of seeing the splash. Most important is that you do it the same every time.
When I "drive" a gun, I'm thinking about shooting a plate rack. In that case I'm moving my gun to the next plate before I even see the plate's reaction. When I'm shooting rifles I take an exaggerated pause to make sure I'm following through. It's all about balance. If I'm shooting a 3 gun match and the target is 20 yards away, I'll drive the rifle. But if I then have to engage something 200+yards away, it's all about gentle and follow through.
Sabougolden
NES Member
Sig 6.5 Creed - cross rifle!
No set definition for it. I generally agree with your definition and that’s usually how I use it. But a good number of people use it for active inputs onto a gun, whether it be for target transitions, control under recoil, or shooting a precise shot.
In particular, it seems that for precision gas guns it is used as a way to describe the active control measures taken to keep the rifle precise while the action moves. But, as I mentioned, I don’t think it’s much of a concern with respect to the bolt/carrier mass moving.
lukewarm_fuzz
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This has always been my philosophy with a bolt gun but I’m starting to question if it holds true with gas guns.
The guy on Backfire loves his. But he did mention, several times, that the short barrel length can be picky when reloading. But it is a great rifle once the load is developed.
I have no personal experience.
Grendizer138
NES Member
Newb question since I’m just getting into longer distance shooting: are you guys generally using 0 MOA or canted mounts?
I assume I’ll be in the 500 yd range since I don’t have access to further. Yes, I realize some of you can do that with iron sights or whatever- I cannot.
I assume I’ll be in the 500 yd range since I don’t have access to further. Yes, I realize some of you can do that with iron sights or whatever- I cannot.
I use 0 MOA for 600 with 6.5cm. I can get to 600 using the reticle.
What caliber are you going to shoot?
Grendizer138
NES Member
308 boomer from an AR10 w/18” barrel
20 MOA Rails on my center fire rifles. so I don't add any additional cant with my rings/mounts
30 MOA Rails on my rim fire rifles, and no additional cant on my rings/mounts
30 MOA Rails on my rim fire rifles, and no additional cant on my rings/mounts
Here’s my boomer long range rifle. Bought it for my boomer dad cause it was his favorite rifle and it would get him out to the range with me again. I’ve yet to put any optics on it because I don’t get to shoot past 100 yds that often.
That'll still turn into a 10,000 dollar problem by the time it's done.
What is the point?
Her mind will change again in a few years and chances are whatever you do will not be in style when you sell the house. Even in this market, the $10K bathroom remodeling won't add anything of value to your house. You can burn the place and sell it for $900K.
I guess this is what happens when people get bored.
Tallahassee
NES Member
Throw a 20 moa mount on it and then you're all set for anything.
You'll already have God with you guiding your hands, since you're shooting 308.
lukewarm_fuzz
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Can confirm it’s very legit.
oldguy68
NES Member
Remington 700 SPS Tactical in .308 Winchester.
With an H-S Precision Police stock, Badger Ordnance mount and rings with a Super Sniper 10X mil-dot scope.
On my Bald Eagle rest it's a 1/4 moa rifle at 100 yards, five shot group with Federal 175 grain Gold Medal Match ammo.
Yeah, I know. How is it a longer ranges. Sorry but that is what I shot it at where I live.
With an H-S Precision Police stock, Badger Ordnance mount and rings with a Super Sniper 10X mil-dot scope.
On my Bald Eagle rest it's a 1/4 moa rifle at 100 yards, five shot group with Federal 175 grain Gold Medal Match ammo.
Yeah, I know. How is it a longer ranges. Sorry but that is what I shot it at where I live.
Rockrivr1
NES Member
When I had my MPA rifle built I decided to go with the 20MOA rail. I generally only have access to a 300 yard range but I built it with the just in case scenario in mind. Better to have and not need it than the reverse.
If you think you might go further out, I would get the 20 MOA.
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dcmdon
NES Member
I guess. If I'm shooting a gas gun at distance, I don't really shoot it any differently than I do a bolt gun. For me (and I'm not sure if I'm right or not) , it's the distance that determines how I shoot the gun. Not what kind of gun it is.
This is interesting. I don't really thing of it that way.
In the spring I shoot in the Eastern Mass Rifle League. It's a slow fire 3 week match, off hand at 200 yards. I just try to be as motionless as possible. No driving here.
50wt
NES Member
Ive wanted one for a very long time now but the occasional report of reliability and no real application other than a sanctioned shoot has kept me from pursuing it.
I’ve Had the rifle since 2008 and shot well over 5k rounds though it in a 3 year span till the great ammo price hike in 2012. No issues
I don’t have a “real application” for any of my rifles, tactical gear, ammo collection, etc lol
Since it’s not really affordable to bang away at steel plates offhand anymore, I’m gonna work up some match loads here soon for it and see how accurate I can get it.
You should be good to go with standard rail / mounts for 500 yards. With a .308 168 grain bullet running a very mild 2600 fps, the drop from a 100 yd zero to 500 yards is only 12.5 MOA.
Reliability issues for M1A's / M14's? Not sure that's really a 'thing' any more than AR-308's. I built this a few years ago and have shot dozens of matches with it and no failures with a couple thousand rounds down the pipe. Bula receiver and bolt, Criterion barrel. At 200 yards and slinged up, you can do rapid fire mag dumps with it and not miss a standard torso steel plate.
Grendizer138
NES Member
Thanks. Yeah, I expect i’ll be mostly at 300 yds, occasionally at 500. Right now I’m building a DMR and have no idea WTF I’m doing, and equipment mistakes are expensive.
Some people have had issues with SAI rifles. But mine has been solidReliability issues for M1A's / M14's? Not sure that's really a 'thing' any more than AR-308's. I built this a few years ago and have shot dozens of matches with it and no failures with a couple thousand rounds down the pipe. Bula receiver and bolt, Criterion barrel. At 200 yards and slinged up, you can do rapid fire mag dumps with it and not miss a standard torso steel plate.
Still want to add a full length match to the collection and will probably do a GI build
This is the way.
Sounds like a fun build. Don't flint on the BCG and barrel and it's hard to go wrong. I think a solid DMR is maybe 600 yards and under? Again, with a relatively mild load that's not really shooting that flat, 600 yd drop is only ~17 MOA drop. Athlon makes decent but very affordable scopes, and even their entry level glass will give you 60 MOA of elevation adjustment. Let's say your scope mounts so that it's somewhere in the middle of that range, you still have ~30 MOA to play with for elevation.
If you were shooting out to 1000 yards, you definitely need a 20 MOA rail or canted scope mounts as the drop is going to be around 35 to 40 MOA for 308 moderate loads.
lukewarm_fuzz
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Don’t be afraid to throw a 20 or so on there. Might as well future proof your setup.
dcmdon
NES Member
The bigger issue with shooting matches with M14 pattern rifles is their finickiness. You need to bed the stock and do all kinds of voodoo to get a 1 MOA gun. God forbid you bump the gun too hard it can throw something off. So it's not the reliability per se. It's the effort and finickiness necessary to build and maintain a truly accurate rifle.
I shot service rifle back when people still used them and people were very very delicate with their match rifles.
Contrast that with an AR pattern rifle. Buy a good straight, stiff upper. Bolt a good barrel to it. And it will shoot sub moa. drop the gun and nothing changes.
