I always seem to get bimodal groups with it, and it confused me. It could still also be me as well though...
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What is your "Long Range" Rifle Platform?
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chris_1001
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I’ve been shooting since I was a kid. I shot .22 precision for years. Got my winter seed with a .22 and my AR (only one patch sadly)
So I knew it was not me.
The 16” barrel I got on the upper was horrible.
Don’t beat yourself up (yet).
Let’s do a shoot and go from there.
Either that, or your barrel hated the ammo you were shooting. I’ve shot .6 MOA with a Ballistic Advantage barrel and SIG 140 match nuggets. That opened up to almost 2 MOA with Cellery and Bellot ammo. Similar results with ‘murican gunner and even worse with Fed hunting ammo.
I actually shot like sh*t on purpose to make him feel good.
LOL, JK.
That barrel was trash.
I may have found my first trash 6.5cm barrel. Got an Encore, bought a 6.5 Barrel from EABCO. SO FAR, I can't get a group below 4" at 100. Very disappointed. I cleaned the sh*t out of it, so I will try a few more loads. I think it might like max powder loads. It was starting to get better with more powder.
My notes. The groups were so bad, made taking notes easy.
chris_1001
NES Member
I shot 4-5 versions of ammo. A few match versions. And some other random .308
If you read my barrel thread.
Everyone wanted to blame me, the ammo, etc.
I installed a new barrel and it fixed it.
I shot 1inch at 200 yards. 1/2 moa
chris_1001
NES Member
Tallahassee
NES Member
Believe it or not, one of my best barrels is an Anderson. Precision by Poverty Pony.
chris_1001
NES Member
Poverty precision?
Tallahassee
NES Member
Seriously, I can't believe how well it shoots for $75. Talk about shit luck. It's not lights out fantastic, but surprisingly good.
lukewarm_fuzz
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Anecdotal but I bought 20 Aero BCGs, 4 of them were completely out of spec and had to be returned.
chris_1001
NES Member
Buddy here had an aero bcg issue.
He swapped them and it worked.
The more I think of it. The more I think I need to pass on any aero products
Sucks. As they were a tier or two above Anderson
Now Anderson is above them.
Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes not. Most of the cheap mfg's are so bc they skimp on QC. If you get lucky, yay. I have a PSA 6.5C bbl that shoots 1/2 MOA with basic range brass. I also have had multiple Aero bbl's in 223, 6.5, & 308 that could hold 5 MOA, one of which wouldn't even cycle the bolt reliably. They sent it back and it held 8 MOA, wtf in the trash
chris_1001
NES Member
Are you still trying to be a PRS guru?
This and subsequent posts.
Looking for a solid .308 M5 barrel.
I checked all the obvious “free” stuff. And I’m only chucking $200 at it for a barrel. So I’m not going crazy. I’ve been shooting most of my life and a mechanical engineer. So yes, I started with the obvious stuff and ended up with the barrel. The brake was a huge offender at first. Which I...
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My last AR build in 223 was a complete Aero upper from wingtactical.com. Seems to shoot well but honestly I don’t know if I’ve ever shot it on paper. Just my 8" steel at 120 yards.
Whenever I get to the range again I’ll have to put it on paper.
Couple MA dealers I’ve spoken to at the mill didn’t have anything good to say about Aero mainly because they’ll tell MA dealers and gun owners to pound sand when there is an issue - because they hate MA which is understandable.
Hopefully I won’t run into problems and need warranty work
Whenever I get to the range again I’ll have to put it on paper.
Couple MA dealers I’ve spoken to at the mill didn’t have anything good to say about Aero mainly because they’ll tell MA dealers and gun owners to pound sand when there is an issue - because they hate MA which is understandable.
Hopefully I won’t run into problems and need warranty work
4" is pretty unusual, it is indeed quite a bit wide. i have a spare 16" faxon for sale still in classifieds, i think, did not see it in a while but i think it gotta be somewhere in my storage room.
i had 2 of them, here is how it performs:
typically with charge ladder it is tunable from 1.5 down to 1/2 moa, but if it is 4moa - it is unusual. i would check the build first, as if you used noslers or eldx 140gr - they cannot spread that bad, usually.
Won't work for an Encore.
lukewarm_fuzz
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I’ve just put together my first precision AR and have been going through the growing pains figuring out the whole POI shift with the flex in the barrel nut. I had no idea what a rabbit hole this was.
if you put a thermometer strip, an AR can be tuned to be accurate as certain temperature, but, all this gets kinda silly, as gas gun like that, with a heavy ass 20+ inch bull barrel becomes a joke.
and with a small shorter pencil like barrel, it will never be always super accurate.
larues have pretty decent design of a barrel nut there, i like those uppers very much, but even they are not truly precision guns. accurate enough for .223, yes, but not nearly in the area of mpa dasher rig.
but, what is decent for an ar is different from a 20lb rig, like below - larue is on the left, and i like it. and does it with cheap bullets, compared to bergers on the right.
still, it will never drill it like those 6 dahsers on the right, where if it deviates - it means i flinched it, and not the gun.
or like that - it is damn close, but, nope, never as consistent and never as repeatable as a heavy bolt gun.
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lukewarm_fuzz
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I’m talking about the positional shift from like, loaded bipod to free recoil/ loose control, that sort of thing. Could have avoided it with a monolithic upper but I’m a pleb so
It shouldn’t be too much with a free float handguard. What sort of POI shift amount are you experiencing with what amount of force applied? Loading up bipod, slinging up tight, etc?
lukewarm_fuzz
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Here’s a recent example. About .3 at 100 between left bipod modified prone and right standing off a bag. The windage shift is new, haven’t seen that before. The vertical is pretty predictable.
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Thanks. Was the bipod loaded up or just a passive support? I’m curious because .3 mil/1 MOA seems like a high shift for a free floated handguard.
For non-free floated rifles, the POI shift is generally about 0.5-1 MOA shift per lb of force applied to the handguard (M4 is ~0.5 and M16 is about 1.0). The USMC shooting team did a nice informal study.
But I haven’t seen anybody do valid testing of various free float handguards to see shifts when specific forces are applied. I know POI shifts exist, but your results seem extreme if the only difference is resting on the bipod (presumably at the end of the handguard) vs resting on a bag (presumably closer to the receiver). Normally the POI shifts with free float handguards come from really loading up your weight onto a bipod or slinging up super tight like in high power matches.
Curious. What handguard are you using and how did you install the barrel? Thermal interference fit, shimmed, bedded, plain but tight, or plain and loose?
I’ve thought about doing some testing of my own with a few different handguards on the same rifle, using weights attached to the handguard. This makes me more interested in doing so.
Of note is that some believe it is actually the upper receiver flexing at the base of the barrel nut threads rather than the barrel nut imparting any forces on the barrel. I haven’t seen conclusive evidence one way or another.
lukewarm_fuzz
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In this case it was loaded up. The difference I see between loaded/ relaxed is more like .1-.2 and perfectly vertical.
I think what exacerbated the situation here was the lack of control from the standing position. I’m trying to shoot it like a bolt gun, when I probably need to drive it more. My theory is that’s the source of the windage shift as well.
It’s a Geissele in the heavy VLTOR upper. Barrel is a proof which I loctited in. JP full mass. I tried to make the most rigid upper I could without going monolithic. Doesn’t appear to have made a difference.
I think what exacerbated the situation here was the lack of control from the standing position. I’m trying to shoot it like a bolt gun, when I probably need to drive it more. My theory is that’s the source of the windage shift as well.
It’s a Geissele in the heavy VLTOR upper. Barrel is a proof which I loctited in. JP full mass. I tried to make the most rigid upper I could without going monolithic. Doesn’t appear to have made a difference.
I think it is not about that at all. You can try to lock that rifle into a heavy sled and I bet you still will see similar spreads.
As of your groups - look just like mine and I also get better groups with a bipod pressed in.
Weight helps there, with a 308 ar10 there is way less difference between bipod or bag, but it is heavy with a 20” bull barrel
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I will try that again, I definitely get spread diffs with mine but a vertical poi shift that large - I do not think I have that.I’m talking about the positional shift from like, loaded bipod to free recoil/ loose control, that sort of thing. Could have avoided it with a monolithic upper but I’m a pleb so
But I get very definitive poi shift when barrel heats up.
my larues get handguard bolted to the upper, it is a different mount design there so it can also be a part of the reason.
Here is a pic from their site - it shows it well. Flat flange of handguard bolted solid and minimizes the flex
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lukewarm_fuzz
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I’ll go do a test this weekend to try to quantify this better and report back.
I’m not a pro, so take this with a grain of salt. But these are my experiences:
The bullet should be leaving the barrel before the bolt starts to unlock, so driving the gun shouldn’t have an effect on accuracy. The biggest need for controlling and driving a gas gun, in a precision capacity, is to limit movement so you can observe splash, etc..
The caveat is in the time from trigger squeeze to the firing pin hitting the primer. It seems like gas guns may need a steadier/firmer firing hand coupled with ensuring trigger squeeze fundamentals. Part of that may be because gas guns generally have heavier triggers, part may be because of the use of a hammer and its rotational movement instead of spring loaded firing pins.
I’m sure you’re already tracking, but for others reading: dime/washer drills are a great way to practice good trigger control fundamentals on a gas gun.
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lukewarm_fuzz
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I believe that’s true specific to unlocking, but the gun does start moving under recoil immediately so in theory your input at the time will have an effect. Litz’s video demonstrates this well, I’ll try to find it to post up.
If anything is the culprit outside of that it’s probably my follow through with the trigger. Lot more travel and if I was going to shank it, it would be low right.
