What is your "Long Range" Rifle Platform?

[peterk123]

I'm finally shooting out to 600 meters. So I'm joining the long range team, well in spirit anyway! Here is my gun. Not set up for precision. It's set up for hunting. The goal is to be proficient at 600 meters so hunting at 300 yards or so will very comfortable.

Tikka T3X in 308
Leupold VX5 3-15x44 firedot
Shooting 165gr nosler BT factory and 168gr hornady eld match with 43.5gr of IMR 4895. Using Winchester brass. Ginex large rifle primers.

Just worked up a new load. 43.8gr IMR4895. Trying to get close to the nosler velocity/drop. Goal is to train with my reloads and hunt with the Nosler. With nosler I should also be able to go to the Accubond bullet because it had the same BC as the ballistic tips. Accubonds are stupid expensive but preferred for larger game like elk.

 

[paul73]

108gr Berger at 100 yards

why you went specifically with this bullet instead of a 105gr hybrid targets? works great of course, but just curious of the decision process here.
also interesting thing about the speed, as i get 2925 at 30.8gr, and 30.2 was 2880 or 60, i think.

 

[Mudflap621]

why you went specifically with this bullet instead of a 105gr hybrid targets? works great of course, but just curious of the decision process here.
also interesting thing about the speed, as i get 2925 at 30.8gr, and 30.2 was 2880 or 60, i think.

I shot the 105s exclusively for the last two years. Got tired of trying to find them at decent price and have been able to source the 108s pretty easily. A bonus is the slightly better BC.

As far as speed I don’t care what it is long as it groups good. I favor lower nodes as they are easier on brass and seem more forgiving. It did well at 2850 but not as good as 2750. Realistically if you input that 100fps difference into a ballistic calculator we’re talking like a tenth of wind at 1000 yards.

 

[paul73]

I shot the 105s exclusively for the last two years. Got tired of trying to find them at decent price and have been able to source the 108s pretty easily. A bonus is the slightly better BC.

As far as speed I don’t care what it is long as it groups good. I favor lower nodes as they are easier on brass and seem more forgiving. It did well at 2850 but not as good as 2750. Realistically if you input that 100fps difference into a ballistic calculator we’re talking like a tenth of wind at 1000 yards.

in my tests i had really really good node at 3100 or about it, 31.3-31.5gr, the results were pretty consistent like ES7 SD2.
but when i tried using it -= indeed, brass lasts 2 shots and then primer pocket bulges and it does not hold anymore, plus bolt extractor was getting brass pushed into it, between the rod and hole, not good at all. i have loaded bunch of rounds at lower 30.8 - at 100yds it is very close to same hole, but it now groups like this at 300yds, and i think of trying to redo it all at lower speeds.
300yds is a bitch as it is very difficult to say when it is my fault not working trigger well and when it is a gun/ammo. but that group below is typical, sometimes it gets better, but usually it is about that. 29/10 ES/SD is probably on me loading it sloppy. weird spread, as it was way tighter before.
i gonna play more with it this spring when my oldest will finally be done with his college hunt and i'll get more free time.



what pisses me off is that at 100yds it goes like this, consistently. but not at the distance, not anymore at least. my 2 times cheaper 6.5cm bergara lrp2 is twice tighter at 300 now.

 

[Woodsloafer]

The vert grip works in conjunction with my Bushnell micro dot, as before I moved to NH, I used to bring my 308 with me when camping in NH or VT for a wilderness defense rifle. Used to swap my PA for my EOtech on there before getting the microdot.

Wilderness defense rifles are needed when camping in NH/VT??????????

 

[paul73]

Wilderness defense rifles are needed when camping in NH/VT??????????

those vermonsters are no joke. .308 is a min.

 

[Da_lucche]

Wilderness defense rifles are needed when camping in NH/VT??????????

the next time I'll make sure to leave the 308 home and bring my pellet gun instead for defense against them deadly chickadees.

On a serious note...yes I would use camping out of Mass in NH/VT as an excuse to bring certain rifles with me since doing that in Norwood MA would probably get the LEO called on me.

Now, I'm usually just bringing out my G19 whenever we are having a fire or taking a hike or whatever.

 

[Mountain]

The bigger issue with shooting matches with M14 pattern rifles is their finickiness. You need to bed the stock and do all kinds of voodoo to get a 1 MOA gun. God forbid you bump the gun too hard it can throw something off. So it's not the reliability per se. It's the effort and finickiness necessary to build and maintain a truly accurate rifle.

I shot service rifle back when people still used them and people were very very delicate with their match rifles.

Contrast that with an AR pattern rifle. Buy a good straight, stiff upper. Bolt a good barrel to it. And it will shoot sub moa. drop the gun and nothing changes.

I'd bet the M1 Garands were even more touchy. IMO it's the wooden stocks that are the primary issue.

 

[PappyM3]

I'd bet the M1 Garands were even more touchy. IMO it's the wooden stocks that are the primary issue.

I agree that wood’s probably touchier, but even with modern stocks/chassis, the Army had issues with “modernized” M14s holding zero for SDM roles.

 

[dcmdon]

I agree that wood’s probably touchier, but even with modern stocks/chassis, the Army had issues with “modernized” M14s holding zero for SDM roles.

I forgot about that. Sage International made an aluminum chassis that was used early in the GWOT to turn the M14 into a designated marksman rifles.

 

[PatMcD]

M14-type rifle just won't hold zero unless they are lugged. Even then, if they get wet, they want to be torn down and dried out in the bedding area because the "hydraulic" effect will make for a wandering zero.
Mine has a heavy McMillan NM stock, lugged, bolted, all the NM tricks done by the former armorer for the All Guard Team, etc. It's still just a 1 moa gun.

 

[dcmdon]

M14-type rifle just won't hold zero unless they are lugged. Even then, if they get wet, they want to be torn down and dried out in the bedding area because the "hydraulic" effect will make for a wandering zero.
Mine has a heavy McMillan NM stock, lugged, bolted, all the NM tricks done by the former armorer for the All Guard Team, etc. It's still just a 1 moa gun.

Back 25 years ago when I first tried shooting service rifle people would say that if you knocked over an M14 in the rack that was set up with all those tricks, it would still lose zero. Is that the case or is that an old wives tale?

 

[PatMcD]

Back 25 years ago when I first tried shooting service rifle people would say that if you knocked over an M14 in the rack that was set up with all those tricks, it would still lose zero. Is that the case or is that an old wives tale?

I've heard of stocks splitting and cracking if they were banged around too much. Before McMillan fiberglass and laminated wood stocks, they just used standard USGI walnut or Birch stocks. Those are pretty thin in the bedding area and wouldn't take much stress before they cracked.

Also, NEVER pick one up from the hanguard! I got yelled at once for doing that.

 

[Broc]

I've heard of stocks splitting and cracking if they were banged around too much. Before McMillan fiberglass and laminated wood stocks, they just used standard USGI walnut or Birch stocks. Those are pretty thin in the bedding area and wouldn't take much stress before they cracked.

Also, NEVER pick one up from the hanguard! I got yelled at once for doing that.

Damn bro.

What do they do, bubble wrap them and put them inside of a glass display?

 

[PatMcD]

Damn bro.

What do they do, bubble wrap them and put them inside of a glass display?

Well, hardly anybody uses them anymore for serious competition. The Service Teams havent used it in 25 (?) years. For Service Rile, everybody has gone to the AR because they're less expensive, you don't need to bed it, the M14 is more fragile, barrel changes are easy, less recoil, less maintenance, less powder, and on.and on.
But mostly we've all gone to the AR because it's more accurate.

And while they weren't literally bubble wrapped, you had better treat them like they were, or else the owner is likely to reprimand you.

 

[Rockrivr1]

Makes me wonder how the hell we won WW II with all those wooden stocked rifles getting banged up, drenched and shot hundreds of times in rapid fashion. Must have been a miracle.

 

[PatMcD]

Well, you do realize we are taking about 2 totally different animals, I hope.

When match-conditioning a M14, you glue the handguard into the front ferrule so that it doesn't contact the barrel. Grab it by that handguard and you risk snapping that glue seam. I'm not going to say that will cause accuracy to go all to hell, but if I just spent good money having a qualified armored (and there aren't that many around anymore) work on my Match gun, I'd be a little protective of it too.

 

[PatMcD]

I got to thinking about it, and realized pretty much all of my rifles aren't "long range" at all. Definitely "mid-range": out to 600 yards. Then I remembered a Winchester Heavy Varmint I had that's set up as a Palma rifle. I'll have to get some 155's and see how she likes them at 1000.

Factory W70 SA
Factory Winchester 308 barrel
Factory stock, but has a Mo's rail in the forend and I added the adjustable buttplate.
Warner rear sight with iris and color filters
Mo's on front

 

[PappyM3]

Makes me wonder how the hell we won WW II with all those wooden stocked rifles getting banged up, drenched and shot hundreds of times in rapid fashion. Must have been a miracle.

Because we didn’t shoot the M1 Garands to long range in WWII

 

[Broc]

Makes me wonder how the hell we won WW II with all those wooden stocked rifles getting banged up, drenched and shot hundreds of times in rapid fashion. Must have been a miracle.

They fired roughly 25K rounds for every kill.

Excerpt from Inside the Crosshairs | Penguin Random House Canada

"The American sniper could be regarded as the greatest all-around rifleman the world has ever known. . . ."

www.penguinrandomhouse.ca

 

[PappyM3]

They fired roughly 25K rounds for every kill.

Excerpt from Inside the Crosshairs | Penguin Random House Canada

"The American sniper could be regarded as the greatest all-around rifleman the world has ever known. . . ."

www.penguinrandomhouse.ca

Haha, yup. But to be fair, I’m sure the Garand had a smaller amount of rounds per kill. The BAR, M1 Thompson, M2, M3 and M1919 probably accounted for most of those small arms rounds expended.

 

[dcmdon]

The reality is that 4 MOA is fantastic for a military rifle using military ammo. That's the current standard for the M4.

I don't know what it was for the M14 and M1, but I'll assume it was worse than that.

Like Pat has described, to turn one of these into a 1 MOA rifle is a lot of work.

To turn an M4 into a 2 moa rifle all you need to do is shoot better ammo.

To turn it into a 1 MOA rifle, it's a barrel with no special installation. Unscrew nut. change barrel, reinstall nut. (Ideally with a free float hand guard).

Between the free float hand guard and heavy barrel, it would be interesting to see what a Marine Corps M16A4 could do with good match ammo.

 

[LuvDog]

Anyone here have hands on experience or opinions with a LP Fuzion vs Impact 737R?

Thinking about a future build and considering these actions.

 

[Mudflap621]

I’ve got two Fuzions and have buddies with Impacts. Can’t go wrong with either, slight nuances between them but both excellent.

 

[PappyM3]

The reality is that 4 MOA is fantastic for a military rifle using military ammo. That's the current standard for the M4.

…
Between the free float hand guard and heavy barrel, it would be interesting to see what a Marine Corps M16A4 could do with good match ammo.

While 4 MOA is the threshold, it is not the standard. Issued M4s can easily shoot 1-2 MOA groups. The problem currently is almost always the ammo.

M16A4s (either USMC or non-SDM Army) with factory barrels and non-floated KAC M5 handguards are capable of decent groups. You just need to be aware of POI shifts with force applied to the handguard. These groups were shot by the USMC shooting team with issued M4s and M16s to test POI shifts with different weights hanging off the handguards. With the M16 groups, the 2.5lb group is 3.27 MOA, the 5lb group is 1.9 MOA, and the 10lb group is 1.7 MOA. The M4 groups are all 2.5-2.7 MOA. Again, that is likely just because of the ammo.

Match ammo could easily shoot 1.5 MOA in a milspec chrome lined government profile barrel. Molon on arfcom has tests. Use a SOCOM barrel and you can get those groups sub-MOA with good match ammo.

 

[71montess]

Would an Aero m5 with a criterion 6.5 22" barrel be considered a long range gun, or are bolt guns just superior to a gas gun and used.

 

[VTski4x4]

Would an Aero m5 with a criterion 6.5 22" barrel be considered a long range gun, or are bolt guns just superior to a gas gun and used.

Bolt guns will always be superior to gas guns for pure accuracy, but there are very good gas guns out there.

 

[lukewarm_fuzz]

Would an Aero m5 with a criterion 6.5 22" barrel be considered a long range gun

Bet your sweet ass

 

[dcmdon]

Especially if you chamber it in something like 6.5 Grendel or 224 Valkyrie.

But even with plain old .223, it would make a great platform. Especially if your goal is training. This it bleeds energy, drops and is pushed by the wind more than larger heavier bullets. So you will need to learn skills to a level at 600 yards that may not be necessary with a 6 Creedmoor until you are at 1000.

 

[bigblue]

My Aero M5 build has a Criterion .308 barreled upper and a PSA upper in 6.5C that holds sub MOA miraculously. I shoot both up to 820y so yeah, that’s a capable long range platform.