Mesatchornug
NES Member
Right. And frequency of training has a huge effect. 3 visits per week for a month will see more advancement than monthly for a year.
[looking at my own practice schedule...crying]
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What do you consider a good group at about 30'?
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[looking at my own practice schedule...crying]
I see so many newer shooter with poor habits and paying no attention to fundamentals, it amazes me. I think part of it is that they aren't learning as young and didn't have the opportunity to learn from those who grew up with guns and backed up their skills serving in the military, I'm talking WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. I started older, at 12, and learned from the old guys at the local F&G, let me tell you they could shoot. Then it was local target competition. I didn't really get into defensive shooting until much later at 22. By then I had picked up a lot of good habits, but it's not because I'm particularly skilled, I've just put a LOT of time into it. And I always look at how I'm doing things and how I might be able to improve, I have a very analytical approach, it's in my nature, not everyone is like that, it kind of makes you a little boring. Then it's just practice, practice, practice.
As for your question, you need to narrow it down. For bullseye shooting, 7 yards is nothing. Iron sights on a good 22 pistol and you should be down to a ragged hole pretty quick, say a couple hundred rounds a week for 6 months, and some good instruction (first lesson, learn to breath and pull the trigger correctly), this assumes you're not old like me. Defensive shooting is different, at least it is for me, it's less about aiming and more about placing the shot. There is a world of difference between hitting the center of the target, and shooting center mass. You don't need fancy optics at 7 yards at an indoor range.
Of course this is all just my opinion, and I'm sure some will say I'm full of it, and other will agree. One thing is certain at NES, EVERYONE has an opinion.
I’m getting some informal training from a friend of mine and from some informative YouTube videos that frankly fixed a lot of things I was doing wrong out of the gate.
I’m a member at a local range now and shooting 200-300 rounds per week. Only been at this for 3 weeks but already see marked improvement but have a long way to go obviously.
One more quick questions - in your opinions, what range do you need to have proficiency at before optics become sorta compulsory? 30 yards? 50 yards?
fencer
NES Member
200-300 rounds per week is a lot of shooting for most people, and yeah, you will see a lot of improvement. It should also tell you what ammo your gun likes most.
Back in '09 I was hired by a new company, but was still under a non compete with my previous employer. So, I was basically paid for a year to not work. I went shooting every day. For a year. I would call customers, take them out to lunch, and then to the range. Best part was, I wrote off the ammo. I also took a lot of lessons and as many courses as I could at Sig Academy and AFS. Not everyday was 300 rounds down the pipe, but a lot of them were.
I also did not just practice handgun. I shot a lot of rifle and some shotgun too, but shooting every day for a year, with some good instruction made a huge difference in my pistol shooting. Now I am lucky to get out twice a week in my slow season, but much of what I picked up stuck.
The Marine Corps helped me to be pretty handy with a rifle, but we spent very little time with handguns.
As far as optics, to each their own, but I am not a fan. I can consistently hit a 12" steel target at 100 yards with most of my handguns, and it's almost boring with my revolvers in single action. Once you figure out where to hold, it's not that hard. I don't want to train with an optic that is not going to be on my carry gun or could fail. If I was shooting target competitions that would be a different story.
Most of us carry for protection, and while standing still at the range is great to reinforce muscle memory and develop the fundamentals, in the real world targets don't stand still and neither should you. Movement changes everything, and so does drawing and shooting. IMHO clearing leather and getting two well placed shot off quickly is much more important than standing still punching holes in paper.
It's not just the range, it's the type of shooting you do. I never got into the practical shooting competitions, from what I see a good holografic is almost a necessity. As for the rest, it's what you want to do, I've done a lot of 22 out to 100m with iron sights, but I also have a scoped 10/22, and I've done iron sights out to 500yrds, not so much bullseye as plate size at that point, But I still like the idea of making a ragged hole group out past 200 and for that I need a good scope. So I guess I'd say buy more guns and have a variety of sights, why commit when you don't have to.
As for defensive shooting, @fencer is spot on, shoot what you carry and those first shots count. My routine is the triple tap. Draw (where it's allowed), first shot DA center mass, second shot SA center mass, third shot head. If you have a manual safety, include that in your practice. You should be able to do this without thinking about it, because if you ever need it, you won't have time to think. Once this is habit, add clearing jams, reloads, and weak hand for all of these. I used to practice reloads by having a friend load my mag with some random number, I doubt I'll be counting rounds in the real world.
commodon
NES Member
Another thing that's kind of fun at longer distances is if you can hang steel.... like if you can put up an ipsc plate at 30-50 yds paint the thing... run back shoot it then check your work etc. Plate gives nice feedback.
200-300 a week is a lot of shooting. Make sure you get good instruction, because at that rate you will dig some deep training ruts.
The two most important shooting accessories are a shot timer and video camera.
I'm still using an older CED 7000 and Pact Club timer. I went thru a lot of CED timers, this one is still working
allen-1
NES Member
84ta406
NES Member
If you can't shoot the irons well, a optic will only help so much. If you can't afford 2-300 rounds a week there are plenty of exercises you can do that are low round count. You would be surprised to learn what a couple dummy rounds in a magazine will show you with your own technique.
I went to the range not long ago and probably went through only 25 round in over a hour working on things. However you do get better with practice but only if your fundamentals are where they need to be.
I went to the range not long ago and probably went through only 25 round in over a hour working on things. However you do get better with practice but only if your fundamentals are where they need to be.
D
Deleted member 12999
Mesatchornug
NES Member
Completely agreed. I've just been bad at self-directing for a bit. I borrowed a Mantis over the winter, at some point I'll buy one. First, I need to build a habit that deserves a new toy...
fencer
NES Member
That's up to you. I know gun owners that never carry. I know guys that carry that hardly ever shoot. I would suggest you practice both?
I decided long ago that I would carry every day, every where I could legally carry.
I like to think of myself as a responsible armed citizen. As such I feel it is my responsibility to become as proficient as possible with my carry guns. I carry to protect myself, and those that I care about, and I will be damned, if that fateful day ever comes, if I am going to be fumbling with my ccw and spraying and praying like some gang banger with a stolen handgun and mag full of mis-matched ammo, without a spare mag on me.
Now I am not saying that someone couldn't get the drop on me, or put a bullet in my ass. But if someone wants to cause me or mine harm, they better bring their A game because I am not playing. I draw and present hundreds of times with a new carry gun. I carefully consider holsters, mag carriers, belts and carry position for a carry gun.
Don't get me wrong, I have plenty of guns that have never seen a holster. But if I am going to carry it, I am going to practice drawing. Start slow and empty.
Anything less than 1" at 30' is laughable. (Just kidding)
Unless you need to actually shoot at a threat.
Then the most important thing is how quickly you can draw from your normal concealment and hit center mass. Range group size is a joke.
Unless you need to actually shoot at a threat.
Then the most important thing is how quickly you can draw from your normal concealment and hit center mass. Range group size is a joke.
Lol, without a timer, you will never know how horribly slow you actually are. (please don't get offended, most people are slow, myself included) Doing drills with a shot timer is very humbling. If only, at a bare minimum, to establish a baseline. This isn't about "shaving milliseconds", either, most people are so f***ing slow they need to shave SECONDS.
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
Without KNOWING the extent of the problem, and how bad it is, it makes it a lot more difficult to fix.Most people are painfully unaware of themselves, their actions and movements, and how they affect what they do and how they do it. Basically incapable of self analysis. So outside input is necessary even for the most basic analysis. If you focus and have a halfway decent sense of time you don't need a beep and timer to know if you are doing better. You may not know your times, but better and worse should be easy to determine.Lol, without a timer, you will never know how horribly slow you actually are. (please don't get offended, most people are slow, myself included) Doing drills with a shot timer is very humbling. If only, at a bare minimum, to establish a baseline. This isn't about "shaving milliseconds", either, most people are so f***ing slow they need to shave SECONDS.
And @EddieCoyle is right in the importance of the draw and fire in self defence, it's why I placed so much emphasis on the triple tap, and working with the weak hand.
I had and sold a CED 7000. I didn't like the small buttons... and I didn't give it enough time to get used to it. Right now, I'm using a tried and true Pocket Pro II.
Supposedly, this is the new hotness
Shot timer for competitive uspsa, idpa, ipsc shooters
Shot timer for training and competition, uspsa, idpa, ipsc and more. PractiScore connectivity with Bluetooth. Multiple par times. Instant, Delayed, Random start. Digitally adjustable sensitivity. AAA Batteries with for long battery life Can detect dry-fire for many pistols.
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i run across a lot of young/new shooters that hits on 18x18 size targets inside 50 yards is gtg.
Yes i know shooters that have trouble with that also....generally unless really green theres not much helping them.
Then theres those shooters who want that shot to hit a particular spot on the target. Be it the aiming black or X ring as often as possible.
The more you shoot and practice fundamental shooting and practice correctly the better off you are. Sometimes the best thing to do is shoot some sort of match. Then you can get a idea of the level your at. You might find your scores are in the high 80 to low 90% which is "good" shooting and if you stepped up practice and maybe gear could reach that 95%+ range.
Unfortunately most dont have the time or money to take lessons,practice,100s of rounds to get better.
I use air rifles and pistols to at least keep my base fundementals from completely crumbling.
I scored a 280/300/3X at cmp match recently with a 1903A3 I lost the most points in off hand although I met my goal for off hand which was to keep them all with in the 7 ring which is about 17" thats " good" for me with a old rifle and iron sights
Retired-LEO
NES Member
EDC pistols (NOT Target Pistols
Very Slow Fire (testing my accuracy) 3-5 inch
Regular Fairly-Slow 5-7 inch groups
Rapid Fire Fire - The size of an average size head
Very Slow Fire (testing my accuracy) 3-5 inch
Regular Fairly-Slow 5-7 inch groups
Rapid Fire Fire - The size of an average size head
5 rounds slow fire at 30 feet:
Four inches is "I feel safe being next to this person without a RSO watching them."
One inch is "Good enough! Unless you're planning on competing at bullseye, it's time to move on to other skills."
(Best group I've ever personally shot was 1-5/8" at 60 feet).
At a self-defense pace, a good group when aiming for CoM is 8", regardless of range. If you're wider than that, you're losing stopping effectiveness and possibly endangering bystanders. If you're tighter than that, you should be shooting more quickly.
Four inches is "I feel safe being next to this person without a RSO watching them."
One inch is "Good enough! Unless you're planning on competing at bullseye, it's time to move on to other skills."
(Best group I've ever personally shot was 1-5/8" at 60 feet).
At a self-defense pace, a good group when aiming for CoM is 8", regardless of range. If you're wider than that, you're losing stopping effectiveness and possibly endangering bystanders. If you're tighter than that, you should be shooting more quickly.
eboos
NES Member
Back in the day when I used to practice much more and my vision was a bit better I would one hole x ring the 7 yard quick reaction drills, 10 ring all shots at 15 and only drop a few at 25 on the USMC pistol qual course. 393 was my best score.
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